Ever Feel Like A Step Child Afraid to Post Questions

[Tracy Sheehan]

Thanks b0b.For those who may be wondering what i am doing (i am also).I am staying logged in i see.

[John Coffman]

As a beginner starting in April 05. Having no musical training or knowledge it has been a up hill journey. My progress has been slow but I feel that with the help of the forum members I have learned the correct way. I was so green I had to learn every thing. Chord progession, tabs, timing etc. With the help of forum members they guided me to a mentor who helped me find a good steel guitar and helped get me started in the right direction.

I asked many question all of which I did not know where to find the answers. Memebers pointed me to old posting that not only gave me the quick answer to the question but the reasons why they knew it was correct.

The first year learning the steel was hard to get motivated and the forum helped me stay with it. I got a chance to move to South Texas with a new job. Karen and I moved to South Texas in March 2006. We was able to go to the local steel club SETSGA which has helped me greatly. Found a steel teacher and I feel I am finally moving forward and learning more each week.

Getting to the POINT. Always as questions that help you move forward. Think about how to best ask it. Post it and look at each posting and harvest all the good information and use it in a postive and productive way. The only stupid question is the one not asked.

We all come for different walks of life and all have different backgrounds. Doctors, teachers, farmers, and many others. We must understand that things we take for general knowledge my not be as common as we think.

Thanks to all the forum members who have helped me over the years. Please know that I will pay it forward as I have the chance.

We must overlook some people with shallow minds and havest the nuggest of knowledge from those that have been there and done that.

God Bless and ask those questions

[CrowBear Schmitt]

i often search the forum first
9 times outta 10 i find more answers than i need
& pertinent ones at that !

otherwise i'm not afraid, or self conscious 'bout postin' among y'all
why we're family sittin' round the table

[David L. Donald]

As in any family;
Some members are a bit more wound tight,
on some days than others.
And some topics can get the latent family feud
back on the burner.

But still families keep on keepin on.

Ask questions and you will get answers.
Some you will like, others not so much.

But like sitting at the table with family,
you can ignore nutto aunt Hortense,
and incesant macromé discussion,
and turn to talk with cousin Ferd about
Lithuanian sheep herding.

And all will be well.

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Cousin David,

We have the same aunt and uncle!

[Herbie Meeks]

Ken Thompson



From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Posted 5 Jan 2007 8:27 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Herbie, your last post was right on the mark. I play in three different bands to include my church band and I could not hold a candle to most of the players on this board. I listen to many of them on youtube and other spots and they are phenominal. I can play within a song and I know when NOT to play. My theory within a song is; do no damage. Play within yourself and within the band and you will be just fine

Ken
That is what I've learned, also probably why I have the attitude, The Steel Is easier to ,learn, and play in a Band,than the Lead Guitar, I can just get into the song, lay back, and try to compliment the Band, and/or The Vocals with a few simple Chords, single, or triple notes, tossed in , In Tempo, and in Tune. also learn some simple, Turn Arounds, and Kickoff's
as either the Steel, or the Lead Guitar seem to be expected to do that.

Herbie

P. S. Try to start a regular, weekly Jam Session.

And invite any, and all musicians, You will be surprised, There are many that just sit home, wishing they had someone to pick with.

[Mark van Allen]

Herbie, I often wonder if some of the posters here give much thought to the way their threads and comments will affect the newer players who really want to learn something... especially when things degenerate into conflict. I just hope new players remember that everybody has an opinion and try to sort through the pluses and minuses to find the nuggets that lurk here.
I know I've learned an immense amount from the learned members here, maybe as much about human nature as steel guitar!

[Herbie Meeks]

MARK
I never did approach the Steel Guitar, as a diffacult Instrument to learn, Starting with the old Accoustic Flat Top Guitar,My Dad set up for me, with a nut rasing the strings, and tuned in E maj. Dad taught me the basic Chords, that was much easier than trying to learn the Chords on a Standard Guitar, Of course Dad wanted me to learn beating rythum for Him while playing the Fiddle at old Country Square Dances, doing that for a while, I graduated to the Standard Guitar, The Key progression already in my mind, I did have to practice making those Finger Chords, I then made my first electric Lap Steel, after moving to California in 1940's, went right into paying gigs, with that steel, and a Fiddle, as Dad had taught me to play a Fiddle, My first paying gig, was with, The Country Bumpkin,Cal Smith, Lee Ross, Jimmy Rice,Al Parker, Pee Wee Whitewing lived near by, and often stopped by our gigs to sit in, He was not of age then, But was able to sit in, and stay away from the Bar, We were all still wet behind our ears, George Possum Jones often stopped by in a Marine Uniform, to sit in, on week end passes from Air Base, Moffett Field,CA, I finally got an old 8 string Fender Steel, with a couple pedals on it, A lot of water under the bridge, and many musicans just getting started, some on to Fame, I finally got ths Emmons S 10, I was in Hog Heaven with that, But I always just picked the simple stuff, usually with a Good Lead Guitar Man, working together, made the gigs enjoyable.
So, My motto, I suppose, is Keep it simple, when with a Band.
In a Studio, let the A&R Man, and Mix Down, worry about it,

Herbie

[Dave Mudgett]

...with their intalect arguments. answering a simple question.

I've hesitated to post on this topic, because I don't want to incite controversy. But I probably have a different view. What I'm hearing a lot lately is that intellectual arguments are of little or no value, and that questions are generally simple and easily answered without controversy. I think sometimes that's true, but other times it isn't. Often a seemingly simple question has hidden aspects that only come out when looked at from different perspectives. I get concerned when obviously knowledgable and helpful people like Donny Hinson decide that there's not much point in pursuing these discussions here because there seems to be a movement away from a willingness to see different points of view in a civil manner.

If one was to argue that only simplistic answers should be given because complex ones confuse new players, I disagree. I think it's important for new players to understand that there is not one "correct" way to do all things, and that good and even very well-known players sometimes disagree. If you believe that "one size fits all" and then find out that that "one, correct way" doesn't fit you - that is a real problem. IMO, it's better to see right off that there are different approaches.

One thing I do agree on - we should be civil and respectful to each other, regardless of how we view things. I think that - probably - the biggest thing that intimidates some members from participating fully is aggressive and even hostile attitudes that occasionally surface in a discussion where several people disagree sharply about some issue. Another thing is that we have some bona fide "heavy hitters" of the steel guitar world posting. Think about it for a second - who wants to be sharply on the other side of an issue taken up by Paul Franklin, Buddy Emmons, Reece Anderson, or any of the other "heavy hitters"? That takes confidence. I think the answer is to always overcompensate and be ultra-respectful in disagreement, and always be humble and open to the possibility that there may be a better way than the one you thought was "correct". In my opinion - if one is ultra-respectful like this, then the penalty for being wrong is a lot easier to swallow.

BTW, I believe I have learned tons and tons of stuff on this forum by entering the fray, and sometimes having my head politely handed back to me to show me there is a better way. This learning business is not for the faint-of-heart.

As always, my opinions.

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

If you believe that "one size fits all" and then find out that that "one, correct way" doesn't fit you - that is a real problem. IMO, it's better to see right off that there are different approaches.

Very important, I think.

I've been in a couple of extended beefs, and I regret it. Some people have road rage, and I'm afraid I have computer rage. If I do it again, I'm going to be very disappointed with myself.

[Herbie Meeks]

I suppose I am over simplafying my trying to explain how I learnt what I do know, But I do think each person has a little something different to add to the Steel Guitar, in their way of playing , and if they can learn to use that difference, this will be their signature, their picking can be recognised

No matter how different, we have to start at the basics
to find that difference that we ourselves like, and use it, until it becomes a habit, and improve on it

Herbie

[Herbie Meeks]

DAVE
I think You explained this in a very nice way, I respect everones ideas, and will never put anyone down, I hope to never make anyone,resentful, or angry, at some of my advice that probably is not understandable here in my trying to explain how to learn,

In person, I might show a new student how to use the Bar, or teach him a few intros, or turn arounds, also some sideman fill in stuff, and how to use the picks,
And nothing takes the place of sitting in with a group,
If you are going to learn how to swim,
you gotta jump in the water,deep enough to swim.

Herbie

[Brian McGaughey]

Mark van allen says

I know I've learned an immense amount from the learned members here, maybe as much about human nature as steel guitar!

Isn't that the truth! If the personalities here weren't so interesting I wouldn't be hangin' 'round nearly so much. My wife now asks me at the dinner table what's new on the SGF. "Oh, not much. Just a fellow from the Netherlands returned a stolen guitar he unknowingly bought on Ebay"..."Oh, not much. Sneaky Pete just died"...etc. etc.

Dave, I think your post was very well thought out and articulate. If you're able to hammer out a post like that in just a minute or two I'm envious. About the content of your post, a favorite talk show host of mine often says he prefers clarity to agreement, and I think being respectful as you say is important, as is being clear. I also think depending on how "thin skinned" someone is can make a difference where the "civil/non-civil" line is drawn in the disagreement.

And Herbie, it't people like you that make it a joy to participate. Your "jump in the deep end" approach has got me getting out of the rehearsal room sooner than I would otherwise. (I'll let you know how it goes!).

[Herbie Meeks]

BRIAN,
I learned early on. unless I was a Song Writer,or Publisher. I was only getting paid for the gigs and sessions,

Also, A Steel Guitar on the Stage, added class to any Band, no matter how hot the Steel Player might be, Just sit there and toss in what ever complaments the Vocals /Band
I can not write Lyrics,
When there were many Joints in ever town with week end bands,
I remember the question many asked, " Is There A Steel Guitar In That Band, If Not, Where is one with a Steel Guitar??"
Some Steel Players, with a good business attitude, started building Steels, They made out, and had a hard time keeping up with orders for new PSG's, for a few years, hope that changes back, with the presence of Steels In Ever Band.again,
I had no idea how to start a business, Write a Song,
So I settled for what I loved to do the most,Be on Stage with a Band, and add a few bucks to my day jobs, which were many, as I kept moving on Freelancing,
( So I did Jump in the deep end ) and found I was very welcome,) I also played the Fiddle ,The pay did increase, with experience, I made it doing what I loved the most,

Herbie

[Dave Mudgett]

Brian - I write quickly, but not that quickly.

That post took around 10 minutes to write - I had to rewrite it a couple of times to get it clear. What's the old saying - "If you want that concept in 20 pages, no problem, I can knock it off in a half an hour - but if you want it concisely stated in a page, gimme the rest of the day."? The other cliche - speak (write) in haste, repent at leisure - I think that applies double on a forum like this where it's a permanent written record.

I agree with all that perceived civility isn't always the easiest thing to gauge - some people are more thick-skinned than others. I guess my point is that - when in doubt - overcompensate and be the ultra-gentleman about it. That said, I would find it hard to learn anything if I was so thin-skinned that I couldn't take honest but constructive criticism. I agree with Herbie - one needs to just jump in - the water ain't that cold.

[David L. Donald]

What I'm hearing a lot lately is that intellectual arguments are of little or no value...

I just don't understand how this can be.

if we can't use our intelectual abilities to their best advantage,
who can we ever expect to improve as players, and as people?

[Herbie Meeks]

How does intelectual discussions
compare to skills, ?

seems some are born with musical skills
I have heard Piano player ,Floyd Cramer could not read a note
of music, Yet recorded hits that the most accomplished
Piano player, could /or did not, compose

I do understand that

Herbie

[David Doggett]

How does intelectual discussions
compare to skills, ?

Accumulating intellectual knowledge and using it in discussions is a skill. It's just a different one than playing music. Some people play music, some accumulate intellectual knowledge, some do neither, some do both. You don't have to choose one or the other. Like playing music, intellectual knowledge does not have to have a practical purpose. It can be it's own reward. Obviously not everyone appreciates and enjoys it.

Floyd Cramer could not read a note
of music, Yet recorded hits that the most accomplished
Piano player, could /or did not, compose

It's true that country music, bluegrass and some other forms of popular music are traditionally played by ear; and many very successful musicians cannot read music. On the other hand reading music is expected in classical music and jazz. Bach, Beethoven, Duke Ellington and Cole Porter could not have composed what they did without reading music and knowing some theory. Buddy Emmons and plenty of country pickers can read music and know lots of theory. Does that hurt their playing, or help it? Listening to me play, you can't tell how much music theory I might know, or not. But I know that I learned pedal steel much faster because of the musical knowledge and theory I already had from playing piano, sax and guitar. Who knows how much better musician and composer Floyd Cramer would have been if he knew more music theory? Just because some talented musicians can play well by ear doesn't mean they wouldn't be even better with more knowledge of theory. I don't really see the point of making avoidance of knowledge a virtue.

[David L. Donald]

But I know that I learned pedal steel much faster because of the musical knowledge and theory I already had from playing piano, sax and guitar.

Who knows how much better musician and composer Floyd Cramer would have been if he knew more music theory?

Using your intelectual abilities musically,
is far from limited to the ability to READ note music.

Construction of a clean and appropriate backing for a song,
is an intelectual exercise, especially in the 'on the fly' interaction
of the studio work for much of Mr. Cramers acreer.

Floyd Cramer had a very strong conception of musical logic.
That is theory, just not put down on paper and analysied as such.
There is no doubt he knew all the major and minors chords
and most of their extensions. And more importantly their placement
and use of their inversions to give style and emotional content to a song.

I suspect his knowlege of theory was
much broader than you give him credit for,
even if he wasn't a sight reader.

Skills are a DIRECT implementation of intelectual application.

While there is evidence of advancement through
isloated epiphanies. ( getting a bright idea on your own)
Most all are directly built on the work of others,
and the intelect of that person in seeing BEYOND
the work of others.

We benifit from having many people give input on the subjects at hand,
from the smallest comment,
to the grandest and deepest analysis;
all springs from the intelects of those involved.
Devalue that proccess at your own peril.

[David Doggett]

Floyd Cramer had a very strong conception of musical logic.
That is theory, just not put down on paper and analysied as such.

This is a big point. Any top musician with years of experience knows lots of theory about chords, progressions, scales, modes and harmony. If they are self taught, they have their own personal terms and way of thinking about it all. The book-learned theory just puts conventional names on it that make it easier to teach and learn from other musicians. The conventional terminology connects you to hundreds of years of written music and experimentation with different chord progressions and modes. It helps you read and play number charts and sheet music. It even helps you communicate in rehearsals and on the bandstand.

[David Doggett]

The February issue of Guitar Player magazine reprints an interview with Charlie Byrd from the magazine’s first edition in 1967. Charlie was raised in the hills of Virginia (near Suffolk). He learned guitar as a child from his family. He later taught himself to read music and took some lessons. He says “More than anything, I learned from observing and absorbing,” in other words by ear. But he also considered it illiterate not to be able to read music, “The same thing [illiterate] applies to music. Sure, some great musicians claim not to be able to read music, but they’re not great because they can’t read music. They did it the hard way, and they know it. Can you imagine taking a course in history without being able to take notes, to have to keep all that information in your head? The system of musical notation is over 500 years old. We can learn from what all musicians did before us.”

[Herbie Meeks]

Of course I did learn to read sheet music,
but my problem, was/is, applying those notes to a musical instrument. in any kind of tempo. just as it is written,
String instruments being my choice, and as we know, these instruments, or most, are a whole different ball game.

To quote my Dad, some advice He had been given,
" An Ounce Of Theory, And a Pound Of Practice "

Then as a Country musican, Steel, and Fiddle player, I was advised, "
Quote, " Play Commercial " I assumed that meant, doing My own thing, on the Instrument I was playing,
That led me to observing the musicians who did make the grade.
and Floyd Cramer on the Piano, just stood out in my mind, Another well known Piano player, Al Strickland, as in Bob Wills band,stands out, I learned reading sheet music, and applying the notes to a PSG, would be quite a chore, I assume that is why instructional records and specially written instructions were Recorded, and written for the PSG.
So listening to the artists who did make the grade,
convinced me, You Gotta Do Your Own Thing, whether Vocals
or Instruments, Some as we know, really stood out,
and sold millions of records, I knew I did not have that inventive quality, so just picked in the background, (Commercially, ) off the top of my head. got my pay, and went home,
Made a million friends, and few Bucks

Herbie

[David Doggett]

Herbie, "An Ounce Of Theory, And a Pound Of Practice " is not bad advice at all. I guess I'm arguing only for maybe 2 or 3 ounces of theory to help out that pound of practice. The ones who don't even have that 1 ounce could really benefit from it, especially if it is the right ounce. I read music on piano and sax, but have just never found the time to learn much of it on guitar and steel. The theory that really helps on every instrument is the scales, chords, and harmony stuff.

[Herbie Meeks]

DAVID
I found I never had that ounce,
No kind of musical theory was availible to me in those
struggeling days, could not afford paying for instructions,just had to depend on the many musicians I was fortunant to work with, Jobs were easy to get playing in the Joints during WW11
Just beating rythum on a Flat Top Guitar, and a Lap Steel was in demand in ever group, as well as a Fiddle.
also several years after, so all my learning came from picking the Joints, also early on , Picking Square Dances with my Dad before my trip to the west coast, during the War, following on the heels of the Grapes of wrath,

Herbie

[David L. Donald]

All D. Dog is saying is that
adding some theory will help you understand what you already know better,
and then gives you some other directions to take when soloing
to add more intertest for 'yourself' in your playing.
And the audience; there are many ways round the barn.

Adding theory is not a question of playing commercial or un-commercal.

Take Billy Joel's 'New York State of Mind'
or 'Just The Way You Are'.

Both were very strong commercial successes,
both have very strong theory application.

Also 'Just The Way You Are' has that gorgeous sax work from Phil Woods.

He walk into the control room, there was a chart,
they rolled the track he looked at the chart
He entered the studio checked the headphone and mic level,
and they ran the track in record.

That is the total sax track in one pass
first pass, job done.
And a classic both fills and solo.

Why, because he had watched the theory of the chord progressions roll by
during that ONE listening pass.
And then played the changes with BIG heart,
aided by solid theory.

Theory doesn't erase feeling,
it CAN make feeling easier and sweeter to get, faster.