The Elements Of Tone!

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 24 Nov 2006 9:43 pm

Following this thread, I feel like Danny De Vito trying to keep up with the New York Knicks.

There's a story about a guitar pull in which great but distinctive guitarists (Let's say Hendrix, Page, and Buchanon) all took turns on the same guitar. Hendrix made it sound like Hendrix, Page made it sound like Page, and Buchanan made it sound like Buchanan.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Post by **b0b** » 24 Nov 2006 9:59 pm

Super long topics make the server work harder with each post. I'd appreciate it if y'all would wind it up soon.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 24 Nov 2006 10:22 pm

When Clapton played his Gibson SG with Cream in the sixties he sounded like he was playing a Gibson SG. When he later switched to a Fender Strat he sounded like he was playing a Fender Strat. No amount of hand technique is going to change that. If you put Buddy Emmons, Buddy Charlton, Buddy Cage, Buddy Merril, Buddy Hackett, Little Buddy, my buddy down the block, or any other Buddy on a Fender 400 they will all sound like they are playing on a Fender 400. No amount of hand technique will change that either. Thats tone. That being said, if you can hear it, tone is largely in the equipment and not in the hands. If you are talking acoustic instruments thats different. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 24 November 2006 at 10:25 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 24 November 2006 at 10:28 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 24 November 2006 at 10:33 PM.]

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 24 Nov 2006 11:20 pm

Kevin and everybody,

If somebody made an audio tape of Clapton playing his SG and then handing it to Santana, and then Santana playing it and handing it to Cippolina, could you tell that all three cuts were back to back with only the guitarist different?

I'm just asking for what your hearing is like. I suspect some can hear it and some can't. I don't think I could hear it, but some people like Gruhn could probably hear a sound difference when Clapton opened and closed his eyes.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Jody Cameron · Post by **Jody Cameron** » 25 Nov 2006 12:44 am

"Buddy Hackett, Little Buddy, my buddy down the block, or any other Buddy on a Fender 400 they will all sound like they are playing on a Fender 400. No amount of hand technique will change that either. Thats tone."

So Kevin, if you and "Buddy" were sitting side by side on Fender 400's, a listener would not be able to tell the difference, because the tone would be the same? I don't think so...something tells me there's a difference between "Buddy's" hands and yours...call it a hunch.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 25 Nov 2006 1:09 am

You are confusing tone and playing Jody. Yes, given the same rigs we would both have the same tones coming out. Of course someone could tell the playing difference. It wouldn't matter what player is on the rigs. They all sound like Fender 400's and playing styles or hand manipulation wouldn't change it. Just like James Burton on his Telecater. He sounds like he's playing a Fender Tele. Same with Gretsch guitars, or when Paul Mcartney plays his Hofner bass. It sounds like he's playing a Hofner bass whether he's playing it or anyone else is. Its the signature tone of the instruments. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 November 2006 at 01:11 AM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 November 2006 at 01:13 AM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 November 2006 at 01:14 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Nov 2006 2:18 am

One hugely intructional incident for me was in Newbury England.

They had a TV camera close-up live on both
Doug Jernigan and Joe Wright's hands.
It really, REALLY showed two very clear ways
to get 'good tone'.
On divergent styles of music also.

I went home and tried to duplicate what I saw, in both styles.
it helped.
It might have helped MORE if I had read
Reece's listing above, before I went.

One thing I don't remember in the original list is pick-blocking
and it's effects on tone.

i.e. the touch of a plam or fingertips,
is much different than the hard surface of a pick.

I certainly think the advice from seasoned and aclaimed pro's
is more valid than the input from average hackers,
or beginners.

But that said, that superior knowlege
is not EXCLUSIVE to the pros.
Yet it may, in the totality, be better applied globally by them,
and hence giving their advice more validity.

An arbitrary line like 5 years does nothing to distiguish
technical accomplishment.
But I will note many with large numbers of years,
seem to debate more, and ask fewer cogent questions on topic,
than the rank beginers...

These days it is often better to get the tone a player is looking for in the recording headphones,
more than in the output of his equipment.

You must think is the AMP sound the reality,
or the recorded sound.
In most recordings it is what comes out of the recording system that counts most.
If it is neccesary to modify something
in the chain tpo get the player
the sound HE prefers in the control room,
Then so be it.

This would, during the recording process,
allow him the best feedback for his ears
and hands to play his best, and get his tone.

**************** To get back to topic more,
I take the liberty of quoting Reece's original post in it's entirety
Since it seems to have been lost a bit over time and debate.

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" Much has been said and written concerning tone over many years, yet to my knowledge the specific elements which comprise tone have yet to be collectively identified.

What makes each of us unique in the sound we get, and why is it when we play someone else’s guitar it sounds different than when they play it?

Most will agree tone begins with the hands, so I will confine my thoughts only to that which comes in contact with the strings. (hands, bar and picks)

LEFT HAND:

1. Amount of downward pressure exerted on the bar.

2, Weight of the bar.

3. Mass of the bar.

4. Bar Alloy.

5. Diameter of the bar.

6. Bar vibrato manipulation.

7. Weight distribution on the bar across the strings.

8. Bar weight manipulation when changing positions.

9. Finger weight of middle, ring, and little finger on strings behind bar.

10. Spread distance of the fingers trailing the bar.

11. Finger placement when gripping the bar.

12. Tightness of the bar grip.

RIGHT HAND:

1. Finger positioning relative to distance from the pickup.

2. Finger pick material.

3. Finger pick thickness.

4. Angle of attack on the finger picks when entering the strings.

5. Pick depths on fingers and thumb.

6. Distance thumb is moved away from the fingers.

7. Material and thickness of thumb pick.

8. Weight distribution of the right hand on the strings.

9. Amount of “pull” pressure exerted on the finger picks.

10. Amount of “push” pressure exerted on the thumb pick.

11. Placement of the picks into the strings.

12. Depth in which the picks go into the strings.

Each element listed (and I’m sure more will be added) could be a topic of discussion while trying to analyze, evaluate and reach a general consensus.

I believe acquiring an overall mental perception of the many elements involved, provides the positive potential of change and rapid improvement."

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On #12 Depth of pick going into the strings.

How many re-file their picks shorter,
and also how many round the angle
or concave the angle,
or generaly make the tip more pointed?

Also do you file the picks to change the apparent angle relative to your fingers
or thumb, resting strictly parallel to the strings/neck?
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 November 2006 at 02:22 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 25 Nov 2006 3:26 am

but Kevin you are missing something here,yes of course, EC played a few different guitars for there inherent timbre, just like many here chose the PP.

EC, Jeff Beck and Stevie Ray all played Strats, how came they all sound totally different ? And an entire planet full of young gun's are buying Strats everyday in the attempt to sound like EC, Jeff Beck and Stevie Ray..a few will, most will not, ever.

So here is the big Q

IF YOU picked up EC's Strat, could you SOUND like EC ?

IT's no different than the most commonly asked question..

How come when YOU play MY Tele it dosen't sound like when "I" play my Tele.."

thats what Reece and others are talking about here..

Put the exact same Push Pull in 12 peoples grasp..and ONE will shine like no tomorrow, the others will be chasing the shine beyond tomorrow, asking the pervervial question...

"How come when YOU play MY Push Pull it doesn't sound like when "I" play my Push Pull"?

This entire subject is alive and well because of the many who believe and have the mindset that if they BUY a certain brand of Instrument it elevates them automatically to GREAT TONE without actually putting in the hours to achieve great tone.

The actual Instrument, yes , of course is part of the greater picture..but the greats choose an Instrument because they KNOW that a certain Instrument , Electric or Acoustic, will allow them to stretch the envelope.

Jazz Violinist Stephane Grappelli was not GREAT because he played a Stradivarius, he was already great and the Stradivarius allowed him to accentuate what he already had.

earlier in this thread a I made comment which probably needs to be repeated..
we go to gatherings with other players, sometimes one of them is smiling mighty because they now have a brand X ( pp) and they tell us how GREAT it sounds, when they play, the first thought that comes to mind is calling WEBSTERS and telling them they need a new definiton for the word great, because the current one isn't working.

The Instrument does not make the music, it produces the music that the musician creates.
The Instrument can define the timbre and thats where it ends, in my OPINION of course.

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 November 2006 at 05:58 AM.]

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 25 Nov 2006 4:58 am

Concerning the finger pick angles......we have discussed variances which translates to pull pressure.

We have not however considered that when the hand is in the playing configuration of most players, the finger picks are not entering the strings at an angle which will allow the entire surface of the pick to come in contact with the string.

When placing your hand in the playing configuration, notice that your fingers are at an angle to the strings, and were you to align the angle and allow the fingers to run parallel with the strings, you must bend your wrist to the right.

To counter this, accomodate the right hand configuration, and allow more pick surface to contact the strings, I put a slight clockwise twist on each pick which insures full pick surface contact.

Examination of the wear points on the finger picks you are now using will tell you if you have full pick contact.

Considering the many elements of playing, this may appear to be insignificant, but what if this slight angle adjustment felt very natural to you.

If it did, I have no doubt both your tone and technique could dramatically change for the better immediately. It takes only a minute to try, and it could possibly be "the" difference in feel your sub-conscious mind has been searching for!

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 25 Nov 2006 5:41 am

I've heard stories that Buddy Charleton would strap a students right arm to his side if he wouldn't keep his elbow into his side. With Buddy's method of palm blocking you can't "chicken wing." Think how much that also changes the angle of the picks on the strings.

If you're having trouble palm blocking you might want to consider this.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 25 Nov 2006 5:55 am

Randy, thanks alot, my wife read this and now has recommended that I practice with BOTH arms strapped to my sides..

Actually I had heard that Buddy C has some very progressive methods for getting things done correctly.

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 November 2006 at 05:56 AM.]

Al Collinsworth · Post by **Al Collinsworth** » 25 Nov 2006 6:02 am

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 25 Nov 2006 6:03 am

Another angle (question)
How many of you have changed your right hand technique after you began playing steel? And how soon after? And why?
I played for 9 years until I was forced to concentrate on my right hand technique. I realized I couldn't play as fast and mute as well with my original right hand technique and position. Hence, to try and keep up with the band I was working with, I had to get my palm closer to the strings (pinky out) or roll my hand over to the left. After experimenting, pinky out felt better, but was a struggle for several nights in the dexterity department. After getting settled and comfortable, I realized my picks were no longer contacting the strings at a "fat" sounding angle or approach. Each night, I would slightly bend the finger picks until, several nights later, they felt comfortable and solid on the stings at nearly 90 degrees of angle. This concluded in my grip being "cupped" and the palm tight on all of the stings. Many aspects of my playing changed for the positive. One result that I hadn't considered at the time, my tone had changed. Notes were "fatter". Chords were "bigger". So much so that I had to make slight adjustments to my amp. The timbre of my guitar didn't change, but my tone did. In my opinion, it enhanced the natural tone of the guitar. Putting descriptive words to the changes of sound is hard to do...fatter, bigger, rounder, etc..? Any time you alter your right hand technique, which covers many aspects, you'll find a chain reaction of change in your tone, blocking, speed, etc. And like someone in a previous post said, you'll find correcting right hand technique challenging.
My late mentor once told me many years ago, "try to pick your single notes with your thumb and middle finger. Middle finger tone matches the thumb tone closer than the index finger."[This message was edited by Dennis Detweiler on 25 November 2006 at 10:29 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 25 Nov 2006 6:13 am

"EC, Jeff Beck and Stevie Ray all played Strats, how came they all sound totally different ? "

For the same reason they each have Strats that sound different. Clapton on Blackie sounds like Clapton on Blackie - Clapton on Brownie sounds different. It's a subtle difference, but it's there. They have all been interviewed where they talked about differences in the same model of guitar. SRV was the least vocal about it, as he was the worst at dialing in any kind of tone himself - it took Cesar Diaz to "fix" his overall sound...but he still recognized the tonal difference between Strats.

Would you sound like Clapton if you played Blackie? No. And neither would Clapton sound like he was playing Blackie if he played your Strat (if you have one).

He would sound VERY close, but how close would depend on the inherent tone of the particular instrument. Once you baseline that, then the hands and Reece's excellent list come into play. As I've said repeatedly, Reece's list of things that influence how a player sounds is tremendous, and ranges from extreme to subtle effect. The effect, though, is still dependent on the baseline tone of the instrument.

i.e. Clapton playing Blackie doesn't sound (tonewise) like Clapton playing the (in)famous painted SG. At all.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 25 Nov 2006 6:17 am

Jim, your making my case...

if you put all 3 players on the exact same Instrument aka: Blackie, they would STILL sound different.They would each go after the TONE that they have developed.

Nobody is attempting to say that the Instrument is NOT part of the equation, it is, a very important part of it.

I play 6 stringers with NO PICKS..my execution on the exact same Instrument as others is TOTALLY different and produces a totally different sound..is it better or worse ? I don't know, I like it better so I guess that is the reference point for me. It has taken me my entire tenure on Guitar to bring in the tone and style that "I" like and want to hear with my rig. But I guarantee that if others play my exact rig very few will achieve the same results that I have. Will it be good, ? Sure, will it be the same? probably not.

approach, execution , style , gear. Each worthy.

Gear may be a constant, but approach, execution and style may vary considerably.

I think they each have a part in the grand plan.

and yes, I have a few Strats and would love for EC to come over and play them..I wouldn't care if he come over and didn't play them !

With my style and execution , each of them, very different guitars mind you, all sound the same to me.

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 November 2006 at 06:38 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 25 Nov 2006 6:18 am

I have a question regarding bar diameter - I primarily use 1" - 1 1/4" bars, the main one being chromed steel tapered from 1 1/8" - 1/1/4"; others being Delrin, moly/nylon and acrylic. Tossing aside the obvious effects of weight, what...other than in vibrato, which is fairly obvious...effects on the sound would a larger diameter bar have.

Again, I realize the weight and vibrato are affected, but I'm curious if other large-bar players have noticed anything else? I have, but I'd like to see the response to see if it's the same thing.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 25 Nov 2006 8:18 am

I believe that which is the most physically comfortable to be the most logical approach relative to achieving the best results.

I ask my students to simply relax their arms to their side, and from that relaxed position we begin constructing the hand configuration, pick angles and etc. while remaining relative their their natural tendencies as much as possible.

As I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread, I never tell anyone they must do something a specific way. In my opinion doing so has the potential of stiffling creativity. However when I do see what I consider to be an approach which has the potential to be detrimental, I provide them with what I believe to be the odds for success should they continue in that direction.

Over the years of my experience I have seen some amazing things accomplished musically which were out of the ordinary, and when I do I always think to myself, "what if their instructor had been successful in discouraging them". Had they done so the world would have been deprived of a great artist. I have personally never took that risk with a student.

The name Thumbs Carlisle comes to mind as a perfect example. He played regular guitar, but everything he done opposed every physical approach I have ever seen.

He laid his Fender Telecaster across his lap, fretted it with his fingers pointing downward, used his left thumb so fast it was a blur, and used a thumb pick that was as fast as his left thumb.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 25 Nov 2006 8:57 am

Jim. I've noticed when I tried them that larger bars, (I use a standard smaller 7/8" Shot Jackson cut/filed/buffed bar I got from BS, alternate with a 7/8 I got in 79.) there was a funny point where the sustain of a larger mass/weight, and a deadening of the strings from an increased point of bar contact seemed to cancelled eachother out. I don't imagine that a larger radius increases the contact point that much. If the bar were lighter I could imagine a lessening of sustain. I don't know.

I think the way I've held the bar, as Bob Hofnar said because we had the same source, is helped more by a smaller diameter bar. A larger bar has always tended for me to encourage a "grab" grip, instead of holding it in a more relaxed manner.

Since it's a measureable quality, someone lke Ed Packard would have to do some sonograms (sp?).

Myself I'd like to see the results of other than metal bars.

A lot of it since we're working with the subconcious "edge" might be plain superstition. I know that for some reason, problems I've been having during any given night seem to go away when I use my "Shot J" bar. Same diameter/weight, different "mojo". Kind of like a guy that's using a BJS bar with the wrong birthstone..

JMHO.

EJL

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 25 Nov 2006 9:00 am

Jim S....You've made some very good points, and you're question concerning different bar weights and materials will be helpful when a consensus is formed!

Dennis D....Concerning the point you raised about picking with the thumb and middle finger....I am of the opinion more efficiency of movement can be accomplished when playing single string if the picking is alternated between the thumb and index finger, because in so doing it provides for the middle finger(which normally plays the highest string) to be "held in reserve" to make a quick transition to a higher string.

You also posed a very good question....does the thumb and middle finger pressures more closley match?

I believe most will agree, equal and consistent pressure matching is very important to sound/tone, which is why I use two fingers when playing two notes at the same time unless they are so far apart I lose my natural feel.

I find it very easy to match the pressure of two fingers pulling together in the same direction, than I do with two picks of different material, mass and weight, going in opposing directions. (thumb and finger picks)

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 25 Nov 2006 9:22 am

Eric, I've found the opposite to be true for me. Maybe it's my huge meathooks, but I have a more relaxed grip with a larger bar. That *was* the point I was looking for, though - differences in grip, i.e. a more relaxed playing "feel".

The other thing about the big steel one is it causes a completely different approach from a "slinding into a note" stanpoint (or sliding into a chord). Any movement requires more acceleration and you have to slow the movement sooner than with a light bar. It's not a huge effect, but there is a marked difference in style.

I noticed it in Sneaky's playing after I got my big bar (which was his old spare). There's a slight, but perceptible difference, and if you could chart out a "curve" of speed, the big bar would have flatter spots at the start and end, while a lighter bar would climb and descend more rapidly.

You really don't hear it until you try it, and then once you DO notice it's one of those "light bulb" moments...

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 25 Nov 2006 10:47 am

I need to read all this before i post much. But i will say my Revelation tube pre, My Mosvalve 1500 amp and my T.C. Electronics G-Force sounds much better than anything i'v ever played thru. So it seems to me that your rigs has to make a lot of difference. And your steel really being in tune with its self make it sound much better also, ETC ETC ETC. I will post more after my Mothers funeral is over and i get to read all this.
Great post Reece.You are at the top of the finest in all aspects in my book.
Gary Steele.

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 25 Nov 2006 1:25 pm

b0b wants everyone to hurry up with this topic because of band with, but what about the zb topic? my question is if you get used to a certain bar. if you change bar size and weight doesn't that require some changing of how you handle the bar as far as pressure and etc. to get the same sound or (tone) as you had before. in a sence saying shouldn't we stay with the same bar as we started with. i use a bjs bar and i don't see me wearing it out anytime soon as long as i take care of it. thanks

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 25 Nov 2006 1:42 pm

some of you here on this thread need to spend more time picking and less time typing
bet you $10.00 your tone would improve

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Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400
Hilton volume pedal

Post by **b0b** » 25 Nov 2006 2:01 pm

Jimmie, the ZB topic isn't generating 20 new posts every day. See http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum7/HTML/004063.html for a complete explanation.

Watch for "The Elements of Tone, Part 2", coming soon to a computer near you.

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 25 Nov 2006 3:23 pm

sorry i'll quit posting. i sure would like to learn but here isn't the place. i'll try to use my time more wisely.