The Steel Guitar Forum

Now that was articulate, Bill. Thanks.

Question: How valuable is it to attempt to develop your playing techniques to produce the tone you hear in the recordings of your favorite player? Could it be that the sound you hear coming out of your speakers is a highly manipulated version of the player's original sound?

In other words, how do you arrive at your mental image of what "good tone" is? This would seem to be foundational to the effort.

I want to remind anybody who still wants to engage in discussion about what "tone" or "timbre" are that I set up a separate thread to discuss this in "Pedal Steel", in a futile attempt to move that discussion away from this thread, which is about an entirely different subject.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013904.html

Reece - despite the issues with this thread, I think sometimes that even the acrimony in a discussion like this can serve as a catalyst to really critically examine how to produce sounds on the instrument, which I think is essential. To learn often requires one to throw away old ideas, even ones that are deeply and emotionally held. This can be difficult, and sometimes only done when the old ideas are strongly challenged. I sincerely hope this kind of thing doesn't drive away some of the great players that have posted on this thread.

I want to respond to Jeff Lampert's comments:

<SMALL>I believe that the significance of differences in tone pales in comparison to the significance of playing...</SMALL>

I argue that tone production is a critical component in the "significance" of playing. Yes, I and many others are critical of fast playing with good melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic ideas yet has poor tone. Your Parker/Trane/Young analogy is right on target. I know jazz enthusiasts who strongly prefer players like Coleman Hawkins and Ben Webster because their "tone" is more pleasing to them. Of course, many others feel differently. I like them all, but it takes all kinds.

On the blues side, I argue that technical virtuosity is much less important than emotional connection, and for many people, "tone" is a critical ingredient. Many blues players and fans, especially, are very critical of virtuosic "blues-like" players who can't produce a good blues "tone" and substitute lots of notes, virtuosically played, for good blues feel and tone.

Especially for beginners on steel, I think that if one can learn to produce a good tone, play in tune, and learn to play simple things well, they are much more likely to be able to work with other players and make meaningful music much more quickly. I guess it depends on what ones goals are. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate virtuosity, but I think good tone is part of that, and doesn't necessarily come without directed work. All IMO, of course.

Mike. You have answered your own question very well.

The sounds you hear on finished CDs or LPs etc. may have been manipulated many ways. The original sound source is affected by the type of mic used, the mic placement, the console EQ that the engineer dialed in while recording and then the EQ and effects added during mixing and mastering. Even the make of console will contribute a sound color to the recording.

You would be amazed at the difference in the source tone and the final tone of instruments being recorded in a recording studio. There was a period where engineers did all they could to realistically capture as close as they could the original sound of the source they were recording. This mindset in recording is not the norm now. Highly processed, EQ'd, compressed etc sounds that present more of an effect rather than a natural sound are the norm.

If I were looking to try to approximate a certain steel guitar tone, I would listen to some samples of late 50s and 60s recordings. These would be more in line with unadulterated recording techniques that would get you a little closer to the what the actual guitar sounded like in the studio.

If you want to hear some good tone, get hold of a copy of Reece's "Steel with Brass". http://pedalsteelmusic.com/music/mauriceanderson.html
The Horns on this recording sound killer, too.

After reading all the comments in this Topic
I am begining to wonder,
with the music trend changes I have seen
Is The Steel Guitar going the way
The Accordion vanished from the Big Recording
Labels
The PSG was developed for, Country Music
by, Country Musicians,

Herbie



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Herbie....if that's the case, I think I'll chain my D12 Dekley to my ankle and go for a swim.

edit: actually when I think about it I'd say only the E9 tuning on PSG and maybe the G tuning on dobro were started as "country only" tunings. Of course even that has long since been disproven.

For the record...IMHO it's all in the hands.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 24 November 2006 at 09:58 AM.]</p></FONT>

Herbie M....I personally see no indication the steel guitar is going the way of the Accordian. I'm convinced the beautiful inherent sound characteristics and the enthusiasm of those who play it, insures it's future.

Reece, other than spreading the word about Jesus Christ, talking and playing pedal steel guitar with my friends is my second favorite thing.
May the steel guitar endure forever.



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Fred Justice,
Justice Custom Cases & Cabinets,
Fred's Music, www.fredjusticemusic.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>The PSG was developed for, Country Music
by, Country Musicians</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it was developed by Alvino Rey and guys like Rico Tuchetti for big band music.



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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

Reese wrtoe:

<SMALL>I personally see no indication the steel guitar is going the way of the Accordian. I'm convinced the beautiful inherent sound characteristics and the enthusiasm of those who play it, insures it's future.</SMALL>

Yes, but what about the steel guitar?

Maurice, couldn't it be said each instrument has its own inherent tone and bad technique actually takes away from what is possible? I'm just playing "devils advocate" here but I've seen players that I thought their technique "choked" the guitar from what was possible. Of course the opposite would also hold true, the better the technique the more the natural sound of the instrument would come out.

Another way of thinking about it is, what does it take to get 100% of the tone out of our guitar, or to manipulate it in a way that makes it sound like we want? Again, the elements you mentioned at the start of this thread are our bond with the instrument. It can do nothing without us.

Mike, actually not. The pedal steel E9th chromatic tuning that is the majority tuning used today evolved out of country music, not big band music. The pedal steel might have started out big band, but the vast majority of its history and evolution was from country music.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>The Steel Guitar going the way
The Accordion vanished from the Big Recording
Labels</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The big labels are increasingly less responsible for creative music and increasingly more responsible for mass entertainment.

Good accordion music and good steel guitar music can be found on independent labels. It's not dead, just not at your recently closed local "record store" (Tower and Virgin both closed won in the Boston area, long after wiping out most Mom and Pop shops).

What's the last major label record that featured steel guitar upfront (not just a solo and fills, but steel guitar featured as the main voice)?

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, technique tips etc. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Instructional DVDs, books and more...

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by John McGann on 24 November 2006 at 12:27 PM.]</p></FONT>

Earnest B....Sorry, but I don't understand your question. Would you care to clearify?

Randy B....Your comments are of course true without question, well taken, and thought provoking.

That which I had in mind when I made my statement was referencing the inherent characteristics of potential by having the ability to make long uninterupted slides while maintaining sustain and having the advantage of altering the chord during the slide by means of physical manipulation of the pedals and/or knee levers.

That inherent and haunting characteristic which cannot be imitated, is what grabbed my soul when I was a kid, and is with me yet today. I have been told similar stories by many over the years. Based on that premise, I believe it secures the instruments future.

Thoughts on "tone":

For purposes of this post, "tone" will be defined as a combination of instrument timbre, player manipulation of said timbre, and player "style".

When a player is said to have great tone, what is usually meant is not only the raw timbre that is being produced, but mainly the player's approach to, and shaping of, the notes involved. Great raw timbre is easy to obtain. A good guitar, a good amp, and the ability to hit notes cleanly is about all it takes. It's the other stuff that difficult.

Now, the shaping of notes is what Reece's list is about. When you hit a note, you can strike it hard, you can strike it soft, you can strike it so it has more or less bite, you can strike is so it blooms, or you can cut it off, etc., etc., etc.

After you strike a note comes the critical phase: what next? This is where tone lives, because this is what distinguishes one player from another. This is that zen moment where all the possibilities of past/present/future commingle. Placing your attention at this spot is where the real magic happens.

In slightly more practical terms, this is where you determine your approach to the next note. Will it be struck in the same manner as the previous note? How much time will there be before the next note is struck? Will the previous note become legato or staccato? How much vibrato will be applied and what of its speed and duration? Will the next note be in time or out of time? If so, by how much? Will this new note be louder or softer, brighter or duller? What will be the harmonic/melodic relationship of this new note to the previous note and the ones before it and the ones to come after it? Will the new note actually be silent???

For most of us, when playing, these questions don't even remotely get to a concious level. Hours and years of practice and experience make the decisions automatic, even rote. BUT, if you want to work on your "tone" THIS is where it's at. REALLY listen. Open your ears and your attention. Feel each note and its interaction with the other notes. FOCUS.

In a masterclass with the great classical guitarist Pepe Romero, I watched him take the best student in the class and by simply having her do the above, create a quantum leap in her performance, from student to professional level. It was breath-taking.

I beleive this is what Susan Alcorn means by Deep Listening as well. Or as I read in another post about a player who savored every note like ice-cream and apple pie.

Earnest has a droll sense of humor, Reece. He implied that you were talking about the accordian. I laughed out loud when I read it!

Mike, actually not. The pedal steel E9th chromatic tuning that is the majority tuning used today evolved out of country music, not big band music. The pedal steel might have started out big band, but the vast majority of its history and evolution was from country music.

Kevin Hatton, Thanks for bailing me out of that , I forgot to mention the Commercial,Money Neck, E9th Chromatic tuning that evolved, it was also handy in soft rock.

Hope you are right. Reece, The Steel is still King here in the south, coupled with a good Lead Guitar Picker, We try to play for the Audience, and Not for Musicians,at the gigs. I have seen super pickers, play themselves out of a job, they would not back off.

Herbie




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Bobby L....Thank you.

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Reece Anderson on 24 November 2006 at 03:43 PM.]</p></FONT>

Thought I would jump in here and give you guys the engineer's point of view as well. Being a steeler and an engineer can pose a huge amount of problems in the mixing theater. I think that tone today is different because of the competition the steel faces with high energy drums and guitars and therefore is eq's differently then 30 years ago when drums and electric guitars wsre "tamer".

Like many others I have a diffcult time getting the tone I want to translate to the instrument. WHat adds to the confusion sometimes is hearing an acceptable tone and then losing it when playing along with a track.

As a test, play your guitar and tweak the tone before playing along with a track. In many cases, you might go back and have to re-tweak (is that a word) to try to get the same timbre as you had when you were solo.

I would love to have pure tone in both solo and fill work and sometimes it is frustrating to get it. I have worked with Reece on this and making small adjustments to the right hand has indeed changed the tone of my guitar for the better.

Now if I had tone like Randy Beavers all would be good with world and the planets would all have to be lined up for that to happen.

Regards and happy holidays

Mark T.

Awright, at the end of the first quarter, and the score is:

"ZB Pedal Steel Guitars - Please Help!" Thread: 1273
The Elements of Tone! Thread: 318

Just seeing how many comments and responses to Reece’s original post seems to be evidence of the subjective nature of what makes up tone. Ironically it also seemed as if the subject got morphed into a discussion on “The elements of GOOD tone”.

I think it’s ALL “tone”…good, bad or indifferent, but I also think what is “good” is completely based upon our own perception. I’ve heard tones that I personally thought were very crappy and not something I’d go for, but because the player using it was executing something so amazing, well, I sorta ended up liking the tone after all.

I tried to read all the posts about this but it reminded me of when I took up golf and realized there were soooo freakin’ many elements of the swing. Something that was supposed to be smooth and almost effortless ended up looking like I was having a seizure and all because I was thinking about it too much. I do the same thing with my sound and I know I think about it too much (although, I really appreciate the stuff I did read which means a lot of thought has gone into what makes tone tick). I do believe the (both)hands, the ears, the gear, tuning, humidity, temperature and all the hundreds of other things come to play (no pun intended).

Well, if you all figure it out, let me know the short version as that is all I can probably handle. Thanks for starting this interesting post Reece.

Mike

Reece

I would like to thank you for posting this topic ,
I for one have made some changes in my approach to
playing and examined how I was doing thing , and it has
made a difference . So Maybe knowing ! it was not a wast
of your time or effort ! it helped someone ! Me .

And maybe you will post other ideas or what ifs in the future .
Thanks

Hick

i'm learning from this too. i would like to have a tape and tab on different licks. beginnings and endings to learn. if i could go over them enough maybe i could get my own act and tone together.

Hope i am not jumping too far off topic here.I know exactly what Reece is tryng to get across.It is in the hands.I started on piano at a very young age then changed to fiddle.I played pro fiddle for a few years before taking up steel.
After i had been playing fiddle for many years i happened to get in to a band that the fiddle player was actually a classicial violinist.He had studied in Europe and taught music in the state college.
We would play twin fiddles at times and at times he played my fiddle and it sounded nothing like it did in my hands.After i had played all these years he started helping me.He corrected the angle that i was holding the bow and had me play closer to the bridge with a different pressure,etc.
The hard part was unlearning the bad habits i had pickd up on my on.
He also taught me what he called first and third scales up the neck and the correct fingering positions.
I had always wondered how a violinist could play so high on the neck and always know where they were as a violin has no frets as every one knows.
So back to steel.I wonder if steel players hated to see me coming because i was always asking one,how did you do that.

"Awright, at the end of the first quarter, and the score is:
"ZB Pedal Steel Guitars - Please Help!" Thread: 1273
The Elements of Tone! Thread: 318

Yeah, but the ZB guys started 10/28/02---over FOUR years ago! Come on guys, we're kickin' some SERIOUS butt here!
And Mike Smith said three pages worth!