The Elements Of Tone!

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I'd like to thank those actually read what I said, not what somebody thought it was.

I also thank those who realize that years of experience can mean something. And those who paid attention and realized the only "beginner" aspect in my resume is *pedal* steel, which was not the object of discussion.

For the record, I did not want to post any kind of resume, because I feel it's uneccessary. But there is such a lack of respect here for "apparent" beginners I was forced iinto it...and asked to by friends who thought I was unfairly targeted.

For those who don't get it - have a happy Thanksgiving.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Reece, I thank you sincerely, and I think even give and take can take into account that some people take things differently, have a bad day, or absent the barrier in place by the computer keyboard really would have the most memorable of times and disagree on almost nothing.

Sometimes people rush to the defense of those who don't ask for it, and maybe amplify their "tone" into something it wasn't meant to be.

They don't seem to realise they are doing it, or they might think they are helping their "careers".

I can't remember asking you any questions that you didn't answer, or the reverse. I'm really busy a lot and I'm sure you are even moreso.

Nothing's easy, or cut and dried, and without a will to cut through semantics or mistyping, nothing but chaos seems to ensue.

Most all the "Greats" have websites of their own for people to hump their legs, order their products or even answer questions.

The Greats I see here, are here to their great credit, and our great benefit.

Just participating like the other 5985+/- members. They are of a right to have good days, bad days, be in the clouds, throw a hissy fit, just like the kid that just bought a guitar and is frustrated.

They stand out in my book by the times they prove that they are not only "one of us", but they really want to help people that are struggling with the same things they might have.

If my opinion is worth anything, Reece you've created, taught, played, and encouraged more music than I could if I lived a hundred-fitty years..

We know "Greats" by their fruits, as well as their music.

We're just people. Steel Guitar Players.Most of us are not Elevated Acclaimed, or Recognized. From what I see, a good representation of guys that have made PSG a large part of their lives, if not the best part of it in some of our cases.

Thanks for hanging out with a cross section, and showing what you are made of.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 November 2006 at 08:42 AM.]

Buck Grantham R.I.P. · From: Denham Springs, LA. USA

AAAAAMENNNN

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

MORE!!!MORE!!!!

Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

Very good !
Hook

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www.HookMoore.com

Jimmie Martin · From: Ohio, USA

i often wonder why when a topic is given that people can't just stay with the topic at hand. give insite to the topic only. we can learn a lot from what reece is trying to get across. if someone has something else to add such as equipment etc. then why don't you start a seperate topic on thoughts that you are trying to get across. arguing by people that have an education thats high level doesn't help me one bit. i want to learn more about tone in the hands myself. its like on jeff newmans site he said that you don't need a new guitar you just need to know how to get the tone that you are looking for on the one you have. by the way reece thank you very much for giving us your time and expertise on the subject of tone. i for one very much appreciate it. happy thanks giving. jimmie

[This message was edited by Jimmie Martin on 23 November 2006 at 07:44 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

OK, here's a SERIOUS question---unlike some of the self-serving, sarcastic, grammatically incorrect, and misspelled posts prior to this one.
Just what IS good "tone?"

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

We'll get them ZB guys!!!!

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Jim S....Everything that has been written within this thread is still there for all to see, and there's no question in my mind that members of the forum have the ability to make intelligent decisions about everything stated should they wish to do so.

In the "grand plan" the semantics are unimportant as are possible erroneous intrepretations, both of which are meaningless when compared to the importance of discussing steel guitar itself which brings joy to many and perpetuates the instrument. I believe such things should not have a priority over steel guitar and those who love and play them.

Most everyone has been misquoted, falsely accused and judged, but I believe wise men know when to let go and move on.

Eric W....I most sincerely thank you for your compliments and your elogently stated comments. We have had differences of opinion in the past, but as you know, I always respected you and your opinions as well as the dignity of our exchanges. The steel guitar world needs people like yourself to participate and help us all while on our never ending journey of learning. I hope you can find the time to do so.

[This message was edited by Reece Anderson on 23 November 2006 at 08:17 PM.]

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Stephen G....Very self revealing post, and you pose a good question.

I think good tone is in the mind and ear of each individual listener. What is your opinion?

Sorry, but I don't understand your reference to the ZB guys!

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

"I think good tone is in the mind and ear of each individual listener"

That could be a whole 'nother thread, Reece A. One which could be as long as the ZB thread, or as long as this one will apparently end up. As to your ignorance of the aforementioned thread, I would infer that you choose to ignore large parts of the Forum.And, uh, you misspelled "eloquently."

edited to add:
Lest my opinions be construed as ANYONE'S but my own, or my attitude be considered pompous or arrogant, I think I'll leave this thread alone. You guys have fun, OK?

[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 23 November 2006 at 10:02 PM.]

Buck Reid · From: Nashville,TN

Jim S,I owe you an apology. To disagree is ok,which I do. However,that doesn't give me the right to speak in a condescending manner and for that I'm truly sorry.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Buck - no problem at all. Thank you. If I offended you at all, I apologize. Thanks for your post.

Jim

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

I have often watched the hands of the players at the shows. Seems that everyones hands are built different and the position of their hands are not the same.(knuckles more up on some, flatter hand position with others,pick block, palm block, etc). Nothing better that to start with the information these great pro players with proven tone can give. Break it down into the most basic elements possible and work on it until you like the tone you are getting. I always feel better if I record myself and listen back. Some people may be able to analyze themselves just by listening but listening back to my recorded self is like looking in the mirror for me. One of the first things I changed was a heavier thum pick. An interesting question to me is if correct bar pressure would be different for different players.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Now that I got that warm group hug feeling, I can get my BIAB rolling. Whose hand is that??

Just a thing to add on topic.

Some of the things we do for YEARS might need changing along the lines of the original notes by MR A.

Myself, I stumbled into the fact that after 20 YEARS I had been using the same kind of thumbpick that Bud C had suggested in the first lesson. A Blue Herco. I always used one until they started making them out of weaker material.

It wasn't until I ran out of ones that fit and actually cut a big tortoise Dunlop into a thinner Herc type shape and it actually FIT my thumb, and I could actually pull a thumbpicked note OUT of the guitar. I got looking at pictures of BCs thumb, and realised that his thumb was narrower at the tip than mine was.

After years of trying a lot of different strings, I found that SSes worked better on E9, and that SIT Power Wound Nickels worked better on the C neck.

Along with that, 16ks were closer to the sound I was after for years and like the pickup I liked best that Danny Shields wound for me in the 80s, that didn't live any longer than he did. At the time I just replaced it with a stock 20k and called it good. I was too busy and JW wasnt doing custom rewinds yet.

I also tried having JW put taller magnets under the .24 wounds on both necks and it made a BIG difference in the signal that had always been weaker on smaller wound strings next to thick plain ones. Another thing I just stoppped and too a second look at.

It never hurts to rethink things you have done for years. Go down a list like Reece offered and think about things that might change things that you might not have thought of.

It helped me even in my declining years..

EJL

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

I have often watched the hands of the players at the shows. Seems that everyones hands are built different and the position of their hands are not the same.(knuckles more up on some, flatter hand position with others,pick block, palm block, etc). Nothing better that to start with the information these great pro players with proven tone can give. Break it down into the most basic elements possible and work on it until you like the tone you are getting. I always feel better if I record myself and listen back. Some people may be able to analyze themselves just by listening but listening back to my recorded self is like looking in the mirror for me. One of the first things I changed was a heavier thum pick. An interesting question to me is if correct bar pressure would be different for different players.

Jimmie Martin · From: Ohio, USA

i keep coming back to a peavey pick that i have. i tryed a blue slim pick but it was just too light. i found on bar pressure if i move the bar back and forth across the strings like i've seen bobbe and herby do it gives enough pressure and i don't get string rattle. now i still have to work on these things to get on an even keel but i'm learning and have about 99.9% of the way to go. when i palm block i just began muting strings with my last 2 fingers that don't have picks on them by accident. but if i try to do this on purpose i can't do as well as if i just let it happen naturally and more or less forget about it.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

ok Stephen, you asked, I have the answer, well not really me but I did ask Merriam...

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Main Entry: tone
Pronunciation: 'tOn
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French tun, ton, from Latin tonus tension, tone, from Greek tonos, literally, act of stretching; akin to Greek teinein to stretch
1 : vocal or musical sound of a specific quality ; especially : musical sound with respect to timbre and manner of expression
2 a : a sound of definite pitch and vibration b : WHOLE STEP
3 : accent or inflection expressive of a mood or emotion
4 : the pitch of a word often used to express differences of meaning
5 : a particular pitch or change of pitch constituting an element in the intonation of a phrase or sentence

6 : style or manner of expression in speaking or writing
7 a (1) : color quality or value (2) : a tint or shade of color b : the color that appreciably modifies a hue or white or black
8 : the effect in painting of light and shade together with color
9 a : the state of a living body or of any of its organs or parts in which the functions are healthy and performed with due vigor b : normal tension or responsiveness to stimuli; specifically : muscular tonus
10 a : healthy elasticity : RESILIENCY b : general character, quality, or trend c : frame of mind : MOOD

---------------------------------------------

ok then, there ya have it !

t

PS: Reece, there is a ZB Guitars thread somewhere on the Forum that has like 1000 entrys on it..

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 November 2006 at 03:09 AM.]

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Stephen, show me the person who can spell all words correctly from memory, and I'll be forever indebted to you. Please consider that your own intelligence may suffer by resorting to hypercritical inferences. Common sense and spelling contests are miles apart in reality. Both seem to foster separate potentialities. In essence, everyone struggles with spelling on a daily basis. Even proofreaders "goof" at times. This thread contains a resourceful combination of literacy and wit, too much so to be subjected to belittlement.

Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

Very well said Bill.

Hook

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www.HookMoore.com

Jimmie Martin · From: Ohio, USA

theres no use in reading anymore of this topic. too many people trying to see which one is the smartest with big words. will the most intellegent please stand up and make a fool out of yourself. the original post was forgotten a long time ago. its hard to be a beginner and learn anything like this. later

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Stephen G....I agree, tone could be "nother" thread!

Unfortunately.......to me it appears you have been pursuing a personal agenda manifesting itself by means of attempted "side tracking" which has been defused, and the result is the triggering of your becoming condescending.

As partial validation, why would you accuse me of ignoring other parts of the forum, when like everyone else, I choose what I wish to read. I don't consider my doing so as an error in judgement or a character flaw.

Nothing you claim I have done comes remotely close to reducing itself to the level of being condescending or disrespectful such as you have successfully achieved.

I honestly hope you continue to add your comments to this thread should it continue. I know you have considerable playing experience which could be very helpful were you to share your insights.

Should you feel I owe you an apology for anything I have said, you have but to inform me.

W.Franco....I have seem many successful players who have varying hand configurations.

I believe if logical information is entered into the mind, the sub-conscious will then seek and achieve the required hand configuration, and subsequent execution will occur which will create the desired sound.

For instance, if someone is trying to achieve a specific sound, that means the sound is already in their head. The transfer from that which one hears in their head to the fingers should come from the conscious mind by means of logical preprogramming while the sub-conscious manipulates the execution and sound.

I have never seen any proficient steel player continually watch their right while playing. I believe the reason to be the sub-conscious realization that when doing so, it interrupts the sub-counscious information flow.

The mind has a tendency to follow the eyes, and if the eyes go to the right hand, the mind disengages from the thought process relative to positioning and preplanning of that which the player "intends" to play. The result is usually a mental train wreck.

Jimmie M....In my opinion, it would appear your proficiency has reached the point that your sub-conscious is telling you it wants to accept the responsibility of the control of your right hand, therefore in my opinion you can now concentrate on the fretboard and not concern yourself with the right hand. Doing this will allow you to concentrate and visualize the music itself as it lays on the fretboard.

I believe you are close to achieving the satisfaction of knowing your have taken a giant step in your learing process.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

I personally thank Reese for his commitment to the steel guitar and his willingness to involve himself in the forum. Too many of the high profile pro players with stellar track records have chosen not to participate enough in sharing their incredible knowledge as a result of the somtimes asinine and petty arguments that a small percentage of people here offer as some sort of personal agenda. I usually find that people who want to argue just for the sake of arguing have deeper personal deficiencies that they need to stroke. The argumentative flair they show will often act as a substitute for the musical failures and frustrations they bury. The opportunity to spar one on one with a pro player with words will take the place of what they could never do on a one on one basis musically. The need to "one up" another musician becomes more important than the actual discussion and development of the central topic originally posted.

As for the original post by Reese. If you look at all the variables to the tone you can coax out of a guitar he listed, you could develop your own tone/sound on the instrument just by accentuating any one of these. Each one has such a strong influence on what your sound can be.

The instrument itself does indeed have a basic individual tone that is a result of the construction and the electronics used, but that basic tone is totally subjugated and changed by the physical effects of the hands of the player manipulating the instrument. That is what gives each player his individual sound.

Jimmie Martin · From: Ohio, USA

amen Bill

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