The Steel Guitar Forum

THANKS Jesse. I sure would really enjoy you posting licks you've found, specifying what modal boxes (in and/or out of the box) they are related to. Look at how much your "blues step sequence" postings inspired!

Being able to put things into practical use and knowing what box(es) it's related to goes a LONG way in reward / satisfying being able to see those connections. I have got to the point that no matter what I'm playing my brains sees the modal templates sitting on the neck ... affording "instant" ability to know where I'm at, and where to slip into for SOME voicing accurate to a chord or scale or substitution, or placing known licks, or woodshedding new placement contexts of known licks, and finding new licks / voicings etc.

I think now would also be a good time for you to post some tabs of the more advanced theory applications you've given us; Me eyes, fangers and ears are itching! Anyone who has hung in here this long should by now be able to understand and appreciate patterns sprouting up and down the neck from the boxes in the more advanced contexts you've given us.

I think you're right that an "appendix" of applications and licks would be important to both knowledge and motivation in a publication.

Regarding my more recent expounding upon the Maj7 and Dom7 boxes: As you recall, your and my first communications here and in private were about how much is afforded by working those boxes together in both movement between them with fluid slants and in subbing them for each other. I can now say without hesitation that the vast majority of both non-pedal and pedal Steel music since the 6th tuning became popular 60-some-odd years ago, has indeed worked between the Dom7 and Maj7 boxes as "Homebase" positions whether the Artists realized the deeper music theory connections or not. And of course we can certainly hear the Steelers that DID make the theory connections in the 6th tuning and made giant leaps beyond simply playing the boxes as positions; Not to take away from the phoenominal and quite technical work that some guys like Sol did which inspired the likes of Jerry Byrd and just about every other one of us Neck junkies!

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On a similar "note":

George Piburn (George Boards Steel Guitars) captured some cool ditty stuff from some non-pedal Steel Masters testing his Steels at the Texas Steel Guitar Association Jamboree 2002 (Maurice Anderson, Buzz Evans, Billy Robinson and Chuck Lettes). He has those sound clips on his website.

Here's another pretty cool sound clip of the tone of George's Steels:

I posted some additional info about George's TOP SHELF Steels on the SGF non-pedal bb today.

Aloha,
DT~<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 21 June 2003 at 07:00 PM.]</p></FONT>

A well deserved bump for threadzilla.
Still being applied and studied here.

Please NOTICE that I made an error in the 4th tablature in the message posted 05 June 2003 02:57 AM: The notes on the 2nd beat of the 2nd measure should be at the 7th fret and not the 6th fret. I don't dare go try to change it right now and have the tab turn out like chicken scratch with no time to fix it now!

Aloha,
DT~<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 07 July 2003 at 05:47 PM.]</p></FONT>

Elevation

Now, cut it out! You're just making more work for future historians. Time to close this thread, Brad?

I will confer with my Financial advisor at Merril Lynch. I wanted to see this thread
reach 280.

Where is the C Position on an E tuning? I forgot 280 posts ago.

Jody, I don't believe there is a "C" position on an "E" tuning....at least I never found it!
www.genejones.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 27 July 2003 at 09:23 AM.]</p></FONT>

Gene
By jove I think I found it,,if so, I'll mail
it to you FedEx. Oh Say Can You "C".

Gene,....you got roped into being the straight man for Jody.

Better you than me this time....

Howard The Forum Photgrapher writes.........


Better you than me this time....

You're Next Wise Guy. Gene works cheaper,I cant
always afford you besides you are not a COWBOY. You are part Indian, I know I have seen your "feathers" I forget which part
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 27 July 2003 at 05:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

bump for newbies

Now cut that out!! No reviving 8-page threads. Help - Brad - Help!

bumped for historical reference of newbies

Well, I learned a MESS of stuff on this thread, and I'm still referring to it. Thanks to all the contributors!!!

Harry

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Well shootz; I might as well update my excited experience with the modal substitution / navigation system as well.

Even though I discovered and wrote the darn system ...simply passing on a gift from the cosmos that litterally jumped off the fret board one night after several months searching for it, and attacked my face and brain like an octopus in heat....; What it affords continues to excite and amaze me and truely did open the barn door to the music cosmos for me, where I can now play along with just about anyone and any style of music; ...which affords a profound freedom to learn from cumulative experiences and experimentaion in that realm.

A current case in point:

A Friend that stops by the shop and house several times a week is one of those guys that carries some type of guitar with him just about everywhere he goes, even if it's just his midget baritone-ukulele-size classical guitar; ...and he rather subconciously can and does carry on a normal conversation while playing free-form chord voicings to tonal passages that seem to be always floating around in his head, ...a subconcious ambience of background music that's disconnected from the ongoing verbal conversation, if you will. A number of great and famous guitarists are/were that compulive about music.

For about a year now I have been greatly enjoying casually jamming with this Friend around the shop and house when I have to time to do it. He will play delicious extention chord voicings to melodic tones that drift in his head or particular tone-center lines or patterns he had mentally cataglogued and come to mind at the moment. Most of what he hears in his mind is modally-grounded melodic even if it's not of the church-mode parent scale; Allowing whatever parent scale he is hearing at the moment to drift through the modes of the parent scale in his head ...which he applies the delicious and exotic chord voicings to without much concious pre-thought about it. He himself did not know that his brain was processing tones modally until I explained it to him; Actually meaning nothing more than his brain having a great ear and processing notes that are all harmonic to each other via a master scale of notes as an armature to work from ...which is the amazingly SIMPLE meaning of modes in the first place (with everything else applied to modes being the complications most Musicians shy away from due to the complexity of the historically vast accumulations of discussions and ideas applied to the SIMPLICITY of modes). I would have been quite lost on Steel Guitar prior to my finding and working with the modal approaches. But having now worked with it for a few years as THE foundation of my Steel playing, I am usually able to follow right along with whatever comes out of this Friend's head / fingers; And quite amazing to me is that doing so up and down the Steel fretboard usually happens ever-increasingly with fewer seams the more I use the modal approaches (which of course is normal to practice and exposure more than to any approach), ...with my subconcious moving my hands and fingers to usually correct modal fret-box positions way ahead of my concious thinking that's often way behind in trying to figure out the positional math of what my auto-motor sub-concious and hands are finding. Of course this is what we all strive for in developing seamless translation from our ears and/or brains to our hands ...and a darn good gauge of how well that is occuring in our learning curve. I might also mention that if my hands move to an incomplete modal box, the old 1/2 step trick comes into play, of knowing that ANY "wrong" note (inharmonious) is only 1/2 step away up or downscale to a harmonious note that will make the inharmonious note sound like it was intended. Another technique I have noticed that my brain has picked up with the modal methods, is that I can carry several simultaneous notes up / down the fretboard by drifting the Tone Bar until those several notes become harmonic, usually in the fully modal fret box, ...but if not when the other fret in the box is moved to, then the old 1/2 step trick comes into play on one or two notes that can be slanted into harmony, and the hand resumes carrying several notes somewhere else in search for the fully modal box. In these brain-motor processes, whatever my hands are playing can usually be carried up and down the neck in a remarkably convincing manners ...particularly by walking slant bar positions that also help the brain register on the fully modal fret-box, ...which is afforded by the brain hearing and knowing the modal connections in whatever tonal voicings are being followed / sought in the flow of the music.

As I encounter particularly interesting places my subconcious goes to, I can remain and experiment in that fretboard box long enough for my concious brain to catch up analytically and experiment long enough to try to slip some of that interesting place into my memory ...although recalling from that memory is allot less succesful than putting it there in the short time spent in that fretboard box before moving along to what might come next from my Friends tone / chord passages; But repetition builds those experiences into ability.

In any event, ...I continue to be often amazed and excited about the barn door to the music cosmos that the modal substitution / navigation concepts have afforded me on the Steel Guitar ...and even carried back over to spanish and bass guitar where my use of modal concepts began many years ago. A very simple exercise a person can immediately do to realize the treasure of modal approaches (a demonstration and NOT a playing technique until it is fully understood and developed), is to pick up a bass guitar and play NOTHING more than ANY combination of notes in the mode a simple and familiar song is written upon. If the song is written around Dominant 7 scale / chords, then just play the IVMaj7 scale notes (because IVMaj7 = I7) ... nothing more; And if the song is written in min7 like most all blues are, then play nothing but bVIIMaj7 scale notes (because bVIIMaj7 = Imin7). When the chords change, STAY on the 1 (one / I) chord throughout the song. Although taste and flavor come from the manner in which notes are played in passages, the ability to make ANY combination of notes work by playing nothing more than the mode scale, is quite revealing of what the SIMPLE armature of modal approaches is all about and affords.

Aloha,
Denny T~

bump

This really is great stuff. I've had a lot of trouble thinking of the scale for each chord in a song. Not only is it incredible difficult for me...you need to know the song cold to do this. But also its not easy to play nice long flowing lines with this process. One of the first things I learned is to take a series of chords and find the proper major scale they all fit in. A perfect example is All the Things you are. For brevity I'll just mention the first I believe 5 measures Fm7,Bbm7/Eb7,Ab/Db,Fm7-5/C Etc....All use the Ab major scale until you C. It is so much easier to just think Ab major scale when jaming on this. I kinda thought it was cheating in a way because it was so much easier. I think it does allow you more time to be creative and certainly a lot smoother. To me that is why this modal approch is so cool. The freedom to "just play" is such a wonderful and rewarding thing.

WF. You got it.
That is the main issue with modes, once they get into your head, they make things easier, not harder.

I also look at that Ab maj scale as it's Fminor / relative minor scale too.

So I can play off of either, as well as slipping those 1/2 note on or off mode/scale blue notes in there.

Since this thread, my C6 6 string work be came very natural.
But also on the 10 string w/pedals it became less of a Serengehttli plain of notes, and more a nice bunch of cool places for licks.

I was using similar stuff on my 6 string bass, but this thread expanded that too.

Said it before, I'll say it again. MERCI DENNY!!!

And I'll keep bumping this from time to time.

One thing that is interesting about this subject is the way you mostly hear steel guitar. A lot of the music played seems to be very worked out, precise stuff. You know the best players probably sound that way even if they are "jamming". Playing at a Show would certainly not be a jam unless it is set up like that in advance. I've not been to any Jazz festivals but I would imagin that playing what you feel at the time would be way more prevelent just because of the nature of the music.

So what happens when your tuning is C6/A7 where the 6th string is C# instead of C? I imagine that you have to adjust for the half step, but how bad does it throw a monkey wrench in the works?

Also, from the ist page (I'm really forging ahead).....John Steele writes:

(quote) When I refer to the "melodic minor" (jazz minor) above, the scale is identical to the major scale except the third tone is flattened.. whether going up or down.
In classical theory it's different ascending than descending.[/quote]

I thought the melodic minor was basically a natural minor scale with the 6th and 7th notes of the scale raised 1/2 step (ascending). I'm not clear on the flatting of the 3rd note of the scale.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by HowardR on 11 May 2004 at 05:08 PM.]</p></FONT>

As I sit here this morning, eating my oatmeal and looking at this mother of all threads , Seeking the mushroom of meaning in this wonderful information. A question about practice comes to mind. When I started practicing scales I found it useful to learn the different scale off the root note in the different positions. That was especially when new at this I could more easily identify the scale tones. To me, starting with the important tones that for me are more easily recognized out of the major position is a good "set up" for flowing into the mode area. At least starting out. Once you have it under your hands and know the tones one could obviously start anywhere they wanted to. Any feedback on this. Also wouldn't this apply going in and out from church mode scales to non church mode scales as your taste dictates.

<SMALL>To me, starting with the important tones that for me are more easily recognized out of the major position is a good "set up" for flowing into the mode area. At least starting out. Once you have it under your hands and know the tones one could obviously start anywhere they wanted to. Any feedback on this</SMALL>

Thats exactly how I taught myself modes years ago ... as stated way back in this "monster" somewhere.

Instead of huntin' it down in this thread ... have a look at my approach here ..

Church Modes in C6

Howard, I always play C6/A7 and as you said ... just bump up that 6th string ... no biggie

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<font size=1>www.horseshoemagnets.com </font><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 05 January 2005 at 06:49 AM.]</p></FONT>

Thanks Rick...I did look at your site and it is really great. I have a lot of woodsheding to do. What fun

Is this a 'Record' yet?
Baz

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<SMALL>Steel players do it without fretting</SMALL>

http://www.waikiki-islanders.com

Basil I think this one has been the record for sometime.
And will likely remain so.
So much good stuff always worth a bump!