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Posted: 23 Nov 2006 8:17 am
by Merle Record
Obviously a good topic, Reece. Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, I haven't read every word of all the replies, but could we add picking speed with various amounts of follow through. I know at times I pick very fast with a lot of follow through,like a batter swinging at a baseball, to get a certain tone/timbre that I want.

This thread certainly has been humorus at times. Have you ever heard the quote "steel guitar players are educated beyond their intelligence"? Gee, I sure hope Mr. A wasn't talking about ALL of us. Image<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Merle Record on 23 November 2006 at 08:23 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 8:21 am
by Tony Prior
I hate that the thread may have turned a bit to the dark side. My feeling is that for the most part each individual may have something to offer which we can either accept or ignore.

A truck gets stuck under a bridge, all the engineers , truck drivers and local mechanics come around to get the truck out, which they still have not accomplished. The young 12 year old boy says "Let the Air out of the tires".

I like reading all the responses, even the ones that make me scratch my head, which are usually my own Image

t

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 8:28 am
by David L. Donald
Paul well said, I know exactly what you mean about
matching tone for late in sesion punch-ins.

Even if NOTHING in the recording chain has changed,
except possibly humidity and air presure in the environment,
you STILL find tonal differences.
If you lay 3-4 passes on different tracks,
you must be carefull when combining them
into a 'best of track', that the tones are congruous.

So before engaging the hands we must engage our analytical musical ear,
then that must be closely coupled to our hands
through great technque to make good tone,
and REPEATABLE consistant tone.

This seems to me the benmark of the great session cat.


Reece, my thought was simply to communicate to a student,
in a rudimentary fashion, how much downward presure you apply to your bar at differing places.

Will it yeald imperical data, nope,
but it might communicate something useful.
So I was wondering if it had been tried or considered.
I was thinking on about what your previous post had mentioned.

Mike S. I had a teacher at Berklee many years ago who said,
"Learn everything, then forget it,
what will come out then, will be you."

Jeff L.
I know what you mean, most people think the tone they hear
was the intention of the player,
no matter how many times the reproduction
process has changed it before they hear it.

So they assume that what they hear MUST be great tone,
because a great player played it.

As a recording person I DO hear things differently
and DO notice less than perfect(IMHO) tonal
choices in recordings, but then I trained to LOOK for those things over many decades.

Most people don't even seem consider that as relevent.
Including a surprising number of musicians I have known.
Not to say they didn't have good tone, or awareness.

It's a joy to work with musicians who, like Paul,
hear their tone and can change their technique,
as needed to match a track or an overall band sounds as needed.

Wade, addressing your point.
Humidity and air presure in the environment can change your tone in the room,
it may likely not be your ears, but the air that is transmitting vibrations too them.

I am sure fatigue, recent manual labor, and other physical things
can contribute to our hands not moving
in as finessful a fashion some days.
I am sure Reece and the other great players here
have some thoughts on this, and how to overcome it.

Thank you to each and every one of you here,
for your insites
and counter-arguments, which in several cases
accentuated Reece's points.

A very happy holliday to you all,
where ever you maybe.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 23 November 2006 at 08:38 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 8:28 am
by Calvin Walley
anyone with less than 5 years PLAYING the STEEL IS A BEGINNER
regardless what kind of credentals they claim to have and have no business arguing with the old pros

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Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Calvin Walley on 23 November 2006 at 09:09 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 8:32 am
by Jim Sliff
Calvin, can you read?

Go back and check how long I've been playing "steel".

You guys are unbelievable. A perfect eaxample of what I was talking about. Calvin...I wasn't arguing with "old pros", sir, either. But it's useless explaining this to you, I'm sure.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 23 November 2006 at 08:35 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 8:34 am
by David C Neal
Paul,

Very nicely put. It always amazes me how Brickmasons, electricians and chefs can argue with some of the most masterful players in the business today. It is so simple. You don't have to be a brain scientist to realize. Having the same guitar, the same amp, and the exact same settings allowing you John Hughey, Buddy Emmons, Randy Beavers, Russ Hicks or any other guitar player to sit down to this instrument and not changing anything but the player... the sound will be completely different. As Jimmie Crawford always said, "It is truly in the hands".

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 8:44 am
by Tony Prior
how about 5 years and 1 day ?

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 8:50 am
by Mark Edwards
This is why some of the pros don't associate themselves with this forum. (one that I know, who will remaine nameless) made the statement that there are pros who will post a thread to relate information to try and help the new guys like myself (yes, I am new and don't claim to be anything else) with information that will benefit not just the new guys but even some of the guys and gals that have been playing for some time.

But as soon as the pros post a thread someone will try and undermind their experience and argue the point to no end, until they are completly satisfied they have totally screwed it up for the rest of us, just so they can be right. I'd rather be happy than be right. It makes me a better player.

Reece I for one appreciate any info you have to give, and for the fortitude in which you have given it. To the others that feel the need to needle the point I say go back to your bedroom and polish your steel due to the tarnish you are putting on an otherwise informative thread.

To the other pros, I would ask that you all consider keeping on, keeping on posting the information that seems to get us into the right frame of mind to play, and play well. Thank you.


Posted: 23 Nov 2006 9:00 am
by Herbie Meeks
Reece, I remember, a statement you made concerning Picks, You said you did not bend the finger picks, that you left them straight like they were made, This was at the, House Of Guitars, in San Jose,CA, Sneaky Pete, was sharing the presentation, Pete was just getting started at that time,
And a good friend of mine, Pete invited me to attend Your Presentation,
P.S I never bent another finger pick after that, Never made me a great Steel Picker, but did make pickin easier for me,
There was a time, I could hear a Steel Player, and know, In what part of the US He learned to play, I think the Tone, and music has to be ,first in the mind,
Practice like H*** get the hands to doing what the Heart wants to say, Your Own Way,

Herbie


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Posted: 23 Nov 2006 9:22 am
by Tony Prior
I think it would be wise to NOT jump on the bandwagon. Many times each of us may type something out of color, not on purpose, maybe say something that was taken the wrong way..I know I do this now and then , just ask my wife, heck you don't even have to ask her, I'll just tell ya right up front what she will say.

As far as our resident PRO's, and we all know who they are, and we all have the most respect for them..I am certain that when each of them state something we all read it with wide open eyes, and are very gratefull.

But lets also not forget, there are several players around who may not be called Pro's, for one reason or another who chose NOT to become the road PRO or may have given up the road years back for a less hectic life ( and maybe more income) to pursue other opportunities. That does not make them lessor players, but rather UNKNOWN players.

I heard that one such fella who lives in in upstate SC played the Saluda show not long ago, and the featured PRO stated.. " Are you crazy ? I aint' goin' up there with him "...


I doubt anyone is speaking in this thread with disrespect, if they did, I missed it.

I'm kinda like Fox News here, trying to be Fair and Balanced. I like both styles of Music, Country and Western...<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 23 November 2006 at 09:30 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 9:24 am
by Pete Burak
I've been watching some of the videos in the Steel On The Web section... Lots of good views of right/left hand technique, and tone!

To borrow a phrase from the fishing industry...
10% of Steel Players get 90% of the good tone (no matter if they're using your rod, or mine Image)!
So just think... with 6000 Steel Forum Members, beyond the top 20+ or so best pickers of all time, there are still some 580 guys with better tone than the rest of us!!! Image

Reece, can you follow up on your "technique vs. tone" points with You Tube Videos? Maybe that would get the point across??? Image
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 23 November 2006 at 09:25 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 9:39 am
by David Mason
When do you guys find time to practice? Image

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 9:50 am
by Eric McEuen
As a beginner on steel, I've followed this thread with interest. I may be out of my depth, but here are some thoughts and thanks.

Like weather, tone is a complex system. It's safe to say it's affected by almost anything (including the weather). IMO, we can't even begin to discuss it without using a lens to focus on the part we're talking about. I appreciate your efforts to do that here, Reece - looking at tone through the lens of what the hands do, and clarifying the pieces involved. There are some pieces I hadn't even thought about, but of course they have an effect. I'm sure paying attention to them will help my playing.

Thanks, again, to all the pros who've weighed in on this. It's making me aware of something else: like advanced scholars, professionals who've devoted their lives to this instrument have a shared understanding and a shared vocabulary to reflect it. I believe Reece, Paul Franklin and Johnny Cox (to name three) have an understanding of "tone" that's more nuanced than mine, and I'm glad for the insights I can glean here. (Just like Einstein had a more nuanced understanding of relativity than I do.) It's truly amazing to have this discussion available.

If I keep learning long enough, maybe one day I'll even understand the phrase "tone to the bone." Image Happy Thanksgiving, all.

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 9:52 am
by Chris LeDrew
Off-Topic As Well:

(Calvin: Respectfully, I have to interject that 5 years on steel for one person can produce a completely different level of playing than that amount of time for another. Playing live consistently for 5 years will give you more experience than playing in your bedroom for 10 years, IMO. There's no way anybody can enforce a rule like that on posting.)

I, for one, hold the experienced and well-known players here in high regard. But I also have many personal friends here whose posts I respect as well. Everyone has something to contribute here, not only the stars. If a steel great wants to put forth ideas and share his/her experience without opposition or input from beginners or intermediates, then this can be easily done by providing the info on a post and then closing it. Everybody can then avail of the info, and there's no other distractions. Also, the imparting of valuable info can be done on personal websites as well. This is a forum, not a lecture hall. Experienced players do deserve respect, but a mutual admiration society seldom accomplishes much.

Nobody has the right to tell anybody else not to post. If certain pros do not want to post here, that's their choice. But they can't expect everybody to agree with everything they say, all the time. If it was like that here, the place would dry up and wither in no time. I'm thankful for the pro players who post here, and also thankful for those with the courage to say what's on their minds. Unfortunately, that combination is sometimes lethal.

So, if a "pro" doesn't value or agree with the opinion of a "regular guy" post, than my humble advice would be to ignore it and concentrate on the posts that are agreeable to him/her. This post wouldn't be more than 2 pages long without all the arguing. Like it or not, people have a perverse interest in watching arguments like this.

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Sho~Bud Pro 1
Peavey Session 400
Goodrich LDR
my webpage




<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 23 November 2006 at 09:54 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 9:56 am
by Eric West
Jim.

I read, as a project, this whole thread.

More words about less, written faster, I don't think I've ever read.

I definitely thank Reece for his thoughtful, and thought provoking post. And Paul Franklin for his insight into how it looks from where he is.

Thank you Jim Sliff, for providing your input and observations from a point of view that seems to be more like mine.

I don't agree with the totality of your posts, but trying to remind you how insignificant you might be seems a little stupid. Even if I knew you were..

Time for me to turn off the instrument that doesn't make music, and turn on the one that does..

Thank YOU b0b. Thanks to you, it's all on record.

Some of it is plain precious...

Image

EJL <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Eric West on 23 November 2006 at 10:55 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 10:27 am
by Joe Miraglia
Some of you guys are taking the fun out of me playing the steel guitar. After 50 years of playing, reading some of these comments makes me believe that I'm not good enough for you to listen to me. Maurice, Paul and others are trying to be helpful. I have and can learn much from them. To all of you--Thank you. As far as who sounds like what, do you find that steel guitar players are just a little too critical? Sometimes I get the impression from the old song ANYTHING YOU CAN DO I CAN DO BETTER sums up the situation OR if you don't have that special tone you shouldn't be playing the steel. Happpy Thanksgiving. Joe

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 10:35 am
by Twayn Williams
Reece,

re: downward pressure

My classical guitar teacher back in college (Douglas Neidt) used to teach that you only used just enough pressure to hold the string down without rattling. The idea was that you could then move your finger to new positions much more quickly because you weren't as committed to a single position -- you didn't have as much downward pressure to overcome.

What I found trying to follow that advice was that if I lightened my touch that much, I often missed putting enough pressure down and consequently "fluffed" more notes. So I, being the headstrong person that I am, threw that idea out the window and realized that you need to use just a bit more pressure than neccessary to ensure always getting the right amount of pressure.

I have a friend (PhD in education, philosopher, jazz guitarist and now crafty guitarist) who has a rule he calls the "Law of One More." This means to aim just beyond your goal, not directly at your goal. I've found it a remarkably useful stratagem in many aspects of music and life.

So, if on a pressure scale of 1 to 10, you need to apply 5 with the bar to keep the strings from rattling, you actually want to use a 6.

Of course, I've had guitar students who seem to have a death grip on the neck, so you gotta teach 'em to lighten up first!

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 10:40 am
by Mark Durante
First off, even though I have had to wade thru some crap on this topic I have managed to learn some good points, so thanks to you real pros for your participation. Don't let some who just want to argue deter you guys from being a part of this forum. Discusions are good, arguments are fruitless.
Now if I had the choice to posess the soul/technique/touch of Reece,Paul,Buddy,Jim OR posess their equipment, here's what I would do:
Reese, I'd take his soul/technique/touch
Paul, I'd take his soul/technique/touch
Buddy, I'd take his soul/technique/touch
Jim, I'd take his equipment

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 1:18 pm
by Rick Schmidt
After 30 years of uncountable 5 sets a night gigs, holding my bar down using the "tapping the ash off a cigar" left hand method (while maintaining a pretty strong downward pressure constantly bending my knuckle at the first joint), I've developed a repetive use type injury on my left hand index finger.

It doesn't bother my steel playing, but now I have an annoying arthritic "clicking" that drives me nuts when I play six string. Oh well....no pain no gain eh?

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 1:57 pm
by Buck Reid
Jim,you are obviously an intelligent person. A pedal steel player? I don't think so. Many of the players in this thread have spent countless hours and years learning to play what I consider to be the most difficult instrument on the planet. Please explain to me how a non manipulated string can produce tone or sound of any kind...on any instrument! Furthermore...not to add or take away from Maurices original statement but would it make you feel better if it were re-stated that "good tone" or the "desired tone" begins with the hands? I agree with many others here that you should sit back and learn from some of these greats - I'm trying,despite your efforts!

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 3:07 pm
by Eric West
Sometimes it's just how somebody uses a single word that unleashes a ton of crap.

As if it had run out of reasons.


EJL

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 3:33 pm
by Stephen Gambrell
Here's an idea---Let's see if we can make THIS thread longer than the ZB thread!!!
Come on, "tone" guys!!! Let's show 'em what it MEANS to fill up a thread!

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 3:38 pm
by Eric West
Image

Image

EJL

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 3:52 pm
by Leonard Bick
I'm glad there's lots of comments about the steel guitar. That shows me there's a bunch of people who love this instrument with such a "passion." With the greats like Emmons, Day, Jernigan, Chalker, Franklin, Myrick, Rugg, Crawford, Anderson, Hughey, Garrish, Green, Byrd, Joaquin Murphey, T. White, and so on, how could you not help but love the steel guitar. I feel so fortunate to live in such an era. We shouldn't be bashing one another or putting the other person down. God loves us all the same and we as human beings should try and do that more. Reece you've made us all aware to pay more attention to detail. Thanks for sharing your years of experience.
I have to go practice. Lord knows I need it. I'm about 20 years behind. HAPPY THANKSGIVING <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Leonard Bick on 23 November 2006 at 04:06 PM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 23 Nov 2006 5:28 pm
by Reece Anderson
Paul F....As usual, you hit the bullseye dead center, and your last two sentences split the arrow.

Tony P....I consider it unfortunate most threads with 20 or more posts (to use your termonology) "turn dark". It however appears this thread has taken a positive turn toward the bright side, thanks to the voices of many.

David M....Mental imaging of the elements and procedures of playing is without question a vital practice method. I believe the mind must be prepared and engaged before putting the hands, knees and feet in motion.

Stephen G....It's great that you lend your support to the effort and intent. I'm sure you have insights which if shared, could be very enlightening. I'll look forward to that as will many others I'm sure.

Eric W....Forgive me if I'm surprised, but thank you or your support. There are many like yourself who also wish those considered as "flies in the sugar" would adhere to the exact words in the beautiful picture..."Just Make It Stop".

Thank you for supporting those interested in learning more about our instrument by means of informative and dignified exchanges of thoughts and ideas which as we all know is what the forum is all about. <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Reece Anderson on 23 November 2006 at 07:24 PM.]</p></FONT>