Ultimate Frustration

Dave Seddon · Post by **Dave Seddon** » 13 Nov 2006 10:47 pm

Darryl a "Brummy" is a person from Birmingham UK. Listening to your track there, I hear shades of Gordon Huntley!! Dave.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 14 Nov 2006 1:05 am

Just one point from a "Brummie" NOT in exile,

Dave:On second thought I was wondering if there's someone who lives close to you that could give you one on one instruction?

Stu Schulman, you obviously don't know Dave's standard of expertise. The main problem Dave has is that there's NO-ONE around this little Isle that can exceed HIS level and teach him ANYTHING.
IMHO

See this for some Brummie Colloquialisms :- Brummie

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[This message was edited by basilh on 14 November 2006 at 01:09 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 14 Nov 2006 2:20 am

Though (ContraryMan, here): I think it's greatly helpful to the musicality to be able to play whatever you're doing faster than you're planning to perform it. It helps with getting the duration of each note exactly correct, and with the way you get from note to note (inflection). It's "luckier" to be more competent than necessary, rather than always hanging on for dear life. Those can be some thrilling moments for sure, but oh boy....

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 14 Nov 2006 3:20 am

uh..ohh..I'm gonna say something you guys may not like...

Speed Pickin is NOT about how fast you can play..

it's more about how fast you can think out of the box..which goes along with knowing where the pockets are and connecting the dots.

Speed Pickin'..or as I term it..Playing at METER..is not really about how fast a player can play..

It's another style of playing that requires an education outside of the AB pedals going from the 1 to 4 chord and the necessary daily practice to bring it home.

Quite frankly, theres nothing wrong with playing Way to Survive and Rocky Top...

sorry..

t

ps..I wish I read what Paul said before the delete...

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 14 November 2006 at 05:46 AM.]

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 14 Nov 2006 3:33 am

I'm caught halfway between what Jim said, and what Tony had to say. I manage short bursts and then run out of "connecting the pockets'....... I know this can be fixed by doing structured practising, but lack the time to really get into it. Otherwise, I have a great time just playing steel

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Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 14 Nov 2006 6:10 am

Oh, I agree completely with Tony's assessment.

I just think it's not something to dwell on - there are much more important musical issues. You can survive and make a lot of beautiful music (and even money) without speed picking - Lloyd Green doesn't play paticularly fast. I have a recording where he tries, and honestly he can't connect-the-dots real well at blinding speed. But he sure can play a SONG.

But Tony is absolutely correct - speed picking is 95% mental - connecting things and anticipating. Not thinking about what you're playing, but knowing generally where your headed 2 measures in FRONT of where you are. It's a multitasking thing.

And again - NOT necessary. Fun for some, but if it's frustrating don't do it. It's not worth it.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 14 November 2006 at 06:10 AM.]

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 14 Nov 2006 6:44 am

[This message was edited by Mike Shefrin on 16 November 2006 at 10:06 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 14 Nov 2006 7:18 am

Jim states..

Fun for some, but if it's frustrating don't do it. It's not worth it.

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Well, I would like to have made 3 point Jump shots too...and I was frustrated when I basically missed them all..but I actually never PRACTICED 3 point Jump shots either...

Playing at meter ( Speed Pickin' )is a goal, playing at meter with taste is refining the goal. If playing at meter is not a GOAL and it is NOT on your regular practice sessions, then it's probable that it's not gonna happen on the gigs with much success.

I too have read where folks have stated that Speed Pickin' is just senseless notes with no style...I certainly do not agree with that definition.

As a regular bandstand player, I feel it is part of the program to be able to execute at minimum a few basic phrases so that when it is time to take the break you can at least be part of the overall package. Although my ability to play at meter is improving,( still sloppy in my view) I do tend to go back to the melody lines when my fingers ain't quite responding to my brain, whats left of it.

I doubt there isn't anyone around who doesn't really sink right into Paul, Doug, Joe Wright, Steve Palousek, Mike Sigler etc.. when they have there picks flyin'....

it's down right UN-Natural !

t

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Nov 2006 7:59 am

I make it a rule never to play faster than I can listen. I'm not a very fast listener. I like to savor the note in its context.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 14 Nov 2006 8:18 am

ahh Bobby Lee's wisdom appears..

well, I have a rule too...I play by all the rules unless I can't...then I make a new rule to cover the one that I can't play by..

oh, and my wife tells me that I often talk faster than I can speak..

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 14 November 2006 at 08:19 AM.]

Dave Seddon · Post by **Dave Seddon** » 14 Nov 2006 11:12 am

Thank you Basil, I'm not sure I desrve it, but if I ever get the chance to play with a band in Birmingham, at least I'll know what they are saying now.
Cheers Dave.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 14 Nov 2006 11:55 am

Being able to play up to tempo (fast) is a part of being a good steel player. Would you hire a fiddle player that made a bunch of lame excuses about why they don't play fast ?

All the steel players we love on this forum like Hughey, Emmons, Green... are all able to play extremely fast. Its part of being able to play on a professional level.

I personally am pretty weak at the quick stuff but I keep working at it.

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Bob
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Jeff Colson · Post by **Jeff Colson** » 14 Nov 2006 12:02 pm

I saw Tony's Rocky Top in a video posted a while back and it's far from sloppy, down right good if you ask me. What was evident is the practice and repetition that goes into it. I believe anyone can play fast or faster if they want to, but the “Clean” steady repetition of beating it into your head is what most people have a hard time committing to.

Jeff

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 14 Nov 2006 1:54 pm

I was at a blues jam one time when a very fast jump-blues was cooking...and one player, when his turn came, played the most soulful, slow, smooth solo you could imagine. It floored the room. The contrast was absolutely stunning.

A recorded example is John Mayall's "Double Crossin' Time", with a young Eric Clapton playing fairly fast and then leaning on one note, sustained out for a couple measures or so. That one spun everyone's head in the 60's. It was "wrong". Yet so perfectly right.

There's nothing wrong with playing fast. there's also nothing wrong with NOT playing fast. The best approach is to play like who YOU are, and not try to "force" it - because examples of fast, sloppy, "look at me" playing are all too common.

I agree with b0b - most people's ears are too slow anyway. All they really recognize is a fast series of something, but not the "content".

I've found the only people really impressed by fast guitar playing are other guitar players. Most "civilians" are listening to the song...many tune-out mentally during solos.

So while there's certainly nothing wrong with honing one's chops, it's nothing to get worked up over if you can't play Yngwie-steel...

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 14 Nov 2006 2:39 pm

I have to say that I think it's an interesting coincidence that all the players who put down playing fast seem to be the ones who can't seem to do it.

O.K., Shefrin, you got me with that one. Have you ever noticed that the people who talk the most about "taste" and "touch" and "soul" - most especially, so-oul - HAVEN'T GOT ANY FRIGGIN' CHOPS? Everything else is subjective - EVERYTHING - but the metronome doesn't lie. It's really hard to play things other than the regular old steel licks on a steel, that's why so few people do it. How many people can play Buddy's "The Way to Survive?" And how many people can play Perlowin's "Firebird Suite?" O.K. shoot me, I'm a-runnin' away anyway.....

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 14 Nov 2006 2:49 pm

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 14 Nov 2006 2:51 pm

The universal elements of good playing on any instrument are:

Rhythm
Melody
Harmony
Phrasing
Articulation.

You'll notice that nowhere is there listed "fast playing" or "slow playing". While I do not claim to be a master at any of these, I do know that a player needs to understand, practice, and apply each of these to their playing in order to reach their potential. Playing "fast" or "slow" is simply technique to be applied toward achieving those goals.

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Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 14 Nov 2006 3:10 pm

to take an actual stab at dave's question, Im gonna suggest that his left hand isnt keeping up with his right because his right hand has built up muscle memory over the years probably from "picking excercises"... the kind that dont require much bar movement. A possible remedy could be to adapt these picking excercises to actual licks that involve bar movement? I dunno tho, thats just a guess from a beginner....

Everyone wants to take the high road and say speed dont matter. I understand what you all are saying about a few tasteful notes being superior to a flurry of cruddy ones...but I dont see the need to dismiss speed as useless or crass. Everything has its place IMHO and there is a time and place for some fast picking occasionally, no?

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 14 Nov 2006 4:31 pm

Trying to play fast or slow-I think it has to do with the song you are playing. If you are saying fast picking is a show off thing or it's not as good as playing slow, I think you are just trying to cop out. Both ways of playing have their own place but you can't cut down speed pickers because they can also play ANYTHING slow. The key is to keeping trying to get better Joe

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 14 Nov 2006 5:19 pm

Ben is pretty much on, IMO, It might be helpful to look into some left hand technique. I never thought about left hand much at all, until I started studying Joe Wright's Right hand and Left hand technique, and my eyes opened up quite a bit. Seems like we tend to under develope our bar hand.

I see clearly what Paul F. meant, if I may. Correct me if I missed your point, Paul. At Paul's career level as a steel player, along with many of the session guys of that caliber, you HAVE to speed pick, to hang onto your career. The guys who can't speed pick are replaced by guys like Franklin, Emmons, White, Green, and more, who CAN speed pick. And someday Franklin, Emmons,White, Green may be over taken if they don't STAY on top of their game---it's a very competitve bizzz. Now, granted, they don't ONLY speed pick to maintain their career. They have to be creative and tasteful and with feeling, ect, to present a COMPLETE package to those who hire their services. But if you can't speed pick, your package to offer those who hire, is limited and incomplete. If you doubt this to be true, just jump on over to Nashville and roll up your sleaves, put on your picks, blow on your bar for good luck, and take their job away. Those are the guys who are THE cutting edge steel players, and THEY define where the cutting edge is. Just rear up, out pick them, and YOU can be the new cutting edge.

Guys like me are just fascinated with the steel guitar. We try to play our best and learn all we can and apply it. We struggle to get a little skill and ability under our belts. And I'll assure you that I am a very good steel player----as long as I stay on my side of my little county in south Oklahoma, and don't go to town. I stay as bizzzzy as I want playing steel, (though it rarely has money involved, nursing homes pay in a different way than money) and those I play music with think I'm great. I sure hope they don't go to town and see a REAL steel player!

Then there are many steel players who are great players, but opportunity seems to head the other way, for some reason or another. That sometimes happens. They could sure munch me and spit me out!

So, speed pickin' to me is cool, and is part of the WHOLE steel guitar landscape---the whole musical landscape most of us will only have a small corner of, in one way or another as steel players. So get happy with your ability, or if you believe you can do better, get to work, and raise your skill level. I'd like to take Paul's job away from him some day, but the fact is, I'm nearly 52 now, been learning the instrument for 4 years now, and Paul has about a 40 year headstart on me. I doubt I'll ever cause Paul to lose any sleep worrying. I won't lose sleep either, as I'm quite happy with my progress and doing fine for a country boy who's only got 4 years playing under his belt.

Marty Smith · Post by **Marty Smith** » 14 Nov 2006 5:32 pm

If I get frustrated or I should say When I get frustrated I slow down till its clean and slowly speed up sometimes taking a long long time and staying up all night. I will stick to whatever needs improvment till i get it! But dont forget to take a break! I went on vacation for a week without my steel (it was killin me!) but when I came back I had a rehearsal the next day and I felt like I was really cookin! I thought many times that i would never have the speed I wanted so I worked harder and Im gettin it. I hope this helps.
Marty
I frogot to say when I get it down I keep speeding it up a little every few days or so .Every now and then I will play everything slower too. I think its a great thing to be able to play thing at fast speeds as well. I also know the feeling of playing fast Joaquin Murphy type stuf and flubbing it right in the middle. Sometimes my mind will go blank right in the middle of solo.
[This message was edited by Marty Smith on 14 November 2006 at 05:56 PM.]

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 14 Nov 2006 5:34 pm

I'm not what you would call a speed demon, and I can related to the mind not keeping up with the fingers thing. While knowing bunches of little short phrases, it's hard to peice it into something that sounds like a decent solo. If you're playing fast riffs just off the top of head, I feel that you have to be thinking ahead 2 or 3 riffs while you are executing the one you're on. I find that hard to do, especially as I get older.

I practice faster stuff not much for the purpose of playing fast, but to have a little comfort room on songs that are medium tempo. I may be looking at this the wrong way but I figure if I only practice slow pretty stuff I will not be able to keep up when songs are a tad faster.

Ken

Pete Young · Post by **Pete Young** » 14 Nov 2006 5:48 pm

Try Highway forty blues or One way rider slow Pretty hard to do I always let the guitar player do the breaks I just can't cut it at speed

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 15 Nov 2006 12:29 am

I have observed that many people who developed fast chops
AFTER developing very good taste,
play well and any speed.

There are many like this in the top players,
As mentioned above Doug Jernigan
fits this example perfectly.

I have note people who play slowly and also very sweetly,
but never took the timne to make it faster,
or just are not drawnt to faster ryhtmns.

Add to that, that some people's brains
DO work a a slower pace thgan others,
yet their acuracy or ability to be coprrect is as or more on the mark.

I have seen people with blinding speed,
who also never got a dose of good taste, and so have little soul at any speed,.
Too caught up trying to be the fastest kid on the block.

The 1st idea is the best I would think.

Get good taste, sense of melody, and control of ryhtmn within meter.

And gradualy do enough exercises to get as fast as you can.
BUT then dial it back so that you
remain tasteful at your
'best attainable speed.'
Not to be confused with the
'fastest you can play.'

Dave Seddon · Post by **Dave Seddon** » 15 Nov 2006 1:27 am

After reading everyones ideas on this subject I think Ben has probably hit the nail on the head. I haven't really given any thought to my left hand. Having now sat and thought about it, I realize that I am basically "Left Hand Lazy," I am trying to play numbers using as little left hand movement as possible instead of thinking about how much better it could sound if I were to use the bar more effectively. My harmonies for instance are very straight forward, plain if you like, and I'm sure by using my let hand more my harmonies could be a lot more colourful. When Joe Wright came over to the U.K. to play the British Steel Guitar Festival, five or six years ago I bought bought the Video "Right/Left hand techniques" but at the time I didn't have a video player that would play the American format. To this day I still haven't played it, so today (now I have one) I shall spend watching and digesting. I'm sure I'll learn something.
Cheers Dave.