The Steel Guitar Forum

I think that also in the mix is undestanding what it is you WANT to sound like, and do you actually have the GEAR to make that happen.

I personally am not a KNOB turning freak, I know what I want to hear and if I don't hear it I know somethings not with the program.

I know that when I use the N400 it's pretty good, not the best, but good..I use the same settings every gig...this is rock solid consistent.

Last night I used the Session 400 which I just added to my garage full of stuff..

I set it a tad higher on the hi end with some mild mids and fairly strong lows..

It was WAY different than the N400..

I played different last night,I heard different tones and I played different..

I heard VINTAGE tones..and I loved it...I found myself playing from a different place.

I guess what I'm saying is you don't just seek tone to sound good but also to PLAY better..or at least play different things..

This is absolutley true for the Tele's to...

If you are seeking your RIG TONE weekly or at every gig..my thought is you may have the wrong gear to achieve what it is you are seeking..Many of us BUY gear because someone else sounds good with it..but do keep in mind, the PLAYER who sounds good is a major part of the equation..probably the most important part..

You must KNOW what YOU want to sound like..and then be able to execute..

say hello to EBAY or the FORUM FOR SALE section...

There are some real gems of wisdom in the previous posts. I think there are two distinct factors in PSG tone. One is the equipment system, the other is the player. The system must be capable of and adjusted so as to enhance the attributes of the player. I have heard the greatest players play with mediocre or even lousy tone at one time or another. I have also heard average players with superb tone.

In the equipment system, there is the picks, strings, pick-up, steel, cables, volume pedal, effects, preamplifier, amplifier, speaker, cabinet, number of cabinets, cabinet position, stereo or mono, available AC power, room acoustics, with or without other instruments, have I missed a few things? If one of these things changes, the whole deal can go south. So I think what happens is that we are usually playing with tone that is less than "excellent". It's a matter of degree. Knowing how to make that compromise as minimal as possible is what seperates consistently good (or great) from mediocre tone.

That's where the player comes in. The breakdown of the player's attributes with respect to tone might include technique, desire, knowledge, experience, hearing and resolve to name a few.

How do you know if a vintage push/pull, modern hybrid or an all pull guitar will enhance "your sound"? How do you know if the "amp du jour" will make the steel you think you should be playing sound the way you would like in the band you play in and in the studio? It's maddening.

So how do we mere mortals navigate through all of this complexity. I, for one, have been spending lots of time playing, listening, comparing, switching system components, more comparing, investigating, more listening. Everytime I think there is an improvement, I make a note and move on. Then I rest my ears and brain and go back and compare again. So far, this seems to be working pretty well. Do I play any better because I am making progress in getting to tone nirvana? Absolutely!

I am kind of embarrased to admit the lengths I have gone to in these listening comparisons, but I think it's been worth it. What I have discovered is that all of this complexity can be sorted out and excellent tone can be achieved on a regular basis. Before I got possessed about this, OK tone was the norm and excellent tone was the exception. Now that I know what's possible,I must admit to being a tonaholic. It's a good bad habit.
TC

Ray, Who are your reffering to in your post? I happen to like that retro tone and am also a fan of playing in stereo. I would like to go hear this player if he or she is local.

Also, what were Jerry Byrds tone settings?

Thx,
Pete B.

As an entry level player, I like to see what my mentors use for equipment. After all, They've been at this much longer than I have. If I start out with equipment similar to theirs, I am a lot closer to having good tone that appeals to me. As I grow with my steel/playing ability, tone will become more personalised. At least, if my tone sucks, I know it ain't the equipment!

I just re-read the recent Guitar Player article on Eric Johnson. Apparently he isn't quite as fussy with his gear, but here are a couple of things:

-No equipment is grounded, because that sucks tone.
-He uses brass ended GeorgeL cables for lead and steel ones for rhythm.
-His TubeDriver pedal is raised on a block of wood, because it sounds better that way.

I have heard rumours that he used to align all his chords north-south in his racks....

Whatever, Eric has phenominal tone, and I'm sure he is hearing things that I just can't hear.

I know I am a bonefide tune freak, and that the sound that I freak over is just as much due to the sound of the tube amp I use. I talked with Derek Trucks about this, and he said that a big part of his sound is due to using the same amp for a decade or more, and getting so used to the way it reacts is one of the keys to his sound. Derek has about the most beautiful tone of any musician that I have ever heard, so I think he's got something going there.

------------------
www.tyack.com

Dan. EJ has a Strat Shop model with no string clamps on the headstock because they interfere with the overtones... Also enough Nitro on the fretboard to blow up a bridge. It works GREAT for him. they're 1200$. Wish I had the money but I already just bought a couple Fenders..

Pete. It has to be either you or Doug because I go for the "painful ear splitting" tone with lots of "pedal stomping" and tasteless machine gun nonsense. Larry has three amps last I heard..

Maybe Ray can post his latest reviews of local working steel players' gigs on his "All About Ray" website. Then some clips of himself with the Jim Carr band or Renegade...


Just an idea..



EJL

Tone freaks? How about just, Freaks. I believe you have to be one to subject yourself to commit an entire life pursuing exellence with an almost impossible-to-tame contraption. But my, ain't it a hoot? I haven't had this much fun since the pigs ate my little brother.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Gary Walker on 20 November 2005 at 10:45 PM.]</p></FONT>

I never thought I would want only
"one instrument = one tone"

I want several differing tones for different situations.
All of them good ones, and hopefully ideosyncratic to me.

And believe me I have a harder time getting good tone live on bass
than I ever have on guitar, mando or steel.
So much more room interaction to deal with.

But also as a recording engineer type,
I am possibly more obsessed with getting great tone than most.

But also less upset when I can't find it (myself) from night to night live,
since ya jess cain't git it right in every room...

But whoe betide the sound man who isn't working
to make me sound smooth through the whole range all night long...
I recently had one guy I seriously thought
was just not putting me in the mix period,
after saying keep a low stage volume, bla bla bla.
I had a good video tape and thought it REALLY sucked.
So I chucked him for an alternate mixer,
and turned up till the drummer blinked, and then down a notch.
By all reports those shows were MUCH better.

But it was a VERY poorly designed stage and hard to hear,
like playing on top of a giant bass drum...
Some club owners have NO CLUE about stage construction,
and don't listen to those that do
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 November 2005 at 01:07 AM.]</p></FONT>

Eric Johnson has a shiny new signature model for sale, but he still takes his original late 50's Strats out on tour too, for some reason. Another tone fiend, Steve Morse, used the same FrankenFender for many years, then he got Music Man to build him a signature model but he uses the same old one all the time. Yngwie Malmsteen has shiny new scalloped-fingerboard Strats for sale, but he still takes his original late 60's Strats out on tour too, for some reason. Steve Vai has a shiny new Ibanez signature model for sale,, but he still tours and records with the original.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the signature models, but the artists seem to use the exact, singular guitars that they're most used to. I don't think steel guitarists geek over tone any worse than any other musicians - $300 fuzztones?

(There's a good reason no guitar magazines have ever hooked an oscilloscope up to a stack of $300 fuzztones and compared them to the $20 Ebay Ibanez Soundtanks - the $300 fuzztone manufacturers advertise heavily in guitar mags.)

David,

about Steve Morse, I know for a fact, at least when he plays with Deep Purple, he does indeed use the Music Man guitars, even several of them, like one with tremolo and one without, and I´ve seen an interview where Steve stated that he likes the fact that if he ever needs a replacement on tour, he can go to a music store anywhere in the world and pick one up and they´re exactly the same.

Regards, JH

You don't become a ‘tone~freak’ until you get really serious about wanting to become a good player! It's part of the process and necessary!

------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
Soon to be: New Burgundy D–10 Derby (w/6 &
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site

what if Steve Morse goes to a Music store and they don't have any Music Man Guitars of his choice ? I haven't seen any in stores for a very long time...

When I saw Steve (trio) back in the mid 80's, he had an MM and his so called Franken Tele'...

and he was VERY LOUD....<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 23 November 2005 at 04:30 AM.]</p></FONT>

C.B., thanks for showing me that I didn't make myself perfectly clear.
I DO set the tone for myself, but I don't worry about it to the point that it affects my performance. I think you explained it when you said the audience doesn't know what tone is. Since they don't know what tone is, don't sweat the small stuff. DO try and get a tone that pleases you, but do not get paranoid about it.

------------------
www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar

Sorry, I meant to say that Morse now seems to play the same, early Music Man signature model most of the time. My point was that the best guitarists seem to zero in on a particular guitar or a very few and get to know them really well, rather than change around willy-nilly just because they can afford to. Without getting into a discussion of whether Jeff Beck is "better" than Keith Richards or whether Duane Allman would've amounted to anything had he played a Telecaster, I will say that the guitarists I listen to most are NOT the ones who show up with a stage full of different guitars, one for each song.

Concerning the biting treble sounds referred to in an earlier post- that is why most of the most venerated steel players are, to me, totally unlistenable. You could cut concrete with most of the tones especially live; combine that with the hearing damage from playing so loud for so long and you might begin to understand what I mean. Shrill PSG that players think is "cutting the mix" is CUTTING OFF OUR HEADS! The change to a slightly more rounded sound, and the tones generated by tube amp players, are much more pleasant and listenable.

John Daughterty, thanks for the reply. I now know we're looking for the same thing. As for being paranoid about my tone, can't say that has ever happened. I understand playing in big rooms, small rooms, crowded rooms, short wall,long wall, big stage, little stage, no stage,low ceiling, tall ceiling, outside, hot day, cold day, damp day, windy day. Did I leave anything out? As a rule, my amps are set already to the guitar I'm playing at that time. I then tweak it to the conditions and let it rip. I still enjoy playing and won't let anything or anybody mess up my way of thinking. For sure you know what I'm talking about. Are we having fun yet? I'm certainly ready. You have a great day and enjoy every minute you can with the world's greatest instrument.
C.B.

John Daughterty, thanks for the reply. I now know we're looking for the same thing. As for being paranoid about my tone, can't say that has ever happened. I understand playing in big rooms, small rooms, crowded rooms, short wall,long wall, big stage, little stage, no stage,low ceiling, tall ceiling, outside, hot day, cold day, damp day, windy day. Did I leave anything out? As a rule, my amps are set already to the guitar I'm playing at that time. I then tweak it to the conditions and let it rip. I still enjoy playing and won't let anything or anybody mess up my way of thinking. For sure you know what I'm talking about. Are we having fun yet? I'm certainly ready. You have a great day and enjoy every minute you can with the world's greatest instrument.
C.B.

Keith, I hear what you do, and agree with you some of the time. I think a lot of veteran players, especially rockers, have hearing impairment. The highs are the first to go, so they have to turn them up to sound good to themselves. The audience suffers. On the other hand, I have noticed some neophytes, especially in alt country, who try so hard to avoid shrillness that they end up with a muffled bassy sound. I have also heard that from myself in live performance recordings. I'm now trying for a middle ground. I agree that using tube amps helps. The highs can have a kind of sizzle that cuts through but is not as shrill as solid state amps.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David Doggett on 23 November 2005 at 05:35 PM.]</p></FONT>