The Steel Guitar Forum

That's tricky; you will find players that come from all three walks. I found theory easy; I found playing by ear easy. I didn't get a good grasp on reading, and it's a fault, but not one that kept me from playing and enjoying music.
But maybe you know more than you think. Can't you recognize the IV and V chords, the II and III and relative minors? Do you need to know what a Cm-5+9 is if you don't play it?

FWIW, I took a Music Theory course at a Community College.
I'd reccomend that method as it pretty much rules out the instrument and sticks to the theory comprehension (although we did use cardboard piano keyboards as a means to get a feel for intervals).
http://www.mhcc.edu/academics/catalog/programs0405/ssmusc.htm

http://spot.pcc.edu/music/ <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 06 October 2005 at 12:51 PM.]</p></FONT>

Ray,
NO ORDER
All three are related but independent of each other. I know very good players who neither read nor understand the logic of music -- they just HEAR it and PLAY it. On the other side of the coin, I know some who would blow you away with their knowledge, but couldn't play their way out of a wet paper bag.

It comes to each of us in a different way.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ray. Good question.

First let's put all this in the perspective of the steel guitarist which is what you based your question on.

A steel guitarist does not come up through the usual pedantic system that say a trumpet player comes up in. A trumpet player can start as a youngster in a high school band and can learn to read music and immediately put it to use in one of many situations. The steel player virtually has no early typical music education settings. Most of the time the instrument is learned from listening to other steelers and by ear.

OK so having said that, training the ear to hear chords and melody and deal with drummers and bass players and girl singers and such the player is only limited by how much he can learn on his own. With the knowledge of music and music theory then the steel player is on an even potential with any other musician. He will have at his disposal the entire printed music library of the whole earth to study and absorb into his playing as he sees fit. His playing potential is no longer limited to JUST his own ear, but now his ear can be enlightened to hear and understand even more. For instance if I come up to you and speak German to you, you might not understand one word of it, even though you have been listening to words coming into your ears all your life. Same way with music. The study of music and music theory and such expands your ears to accept more compex musical information to include in your musical thought.

I think that any steel guitar player should posess at least the most rudimentary skill at reading music notation and especially understanding chord theory. I am not saying you must be able to sight read a Broadway show or be able to write down 73 different harmonic plumbings of the Steel Guitar Rag.

I'll give you a good example of why I say this. I got a call yesterday to play a concert with a local college orchestra. They are playing the Shostokovich Jazz Suite Nr.1 written in 1931. Dang if the third movement labled "Foxtrot" has about 16 bars of a written out Hawaiian Guitar solo! I just took a lap guitar and tuned it to standard guitar tuning and read it right down. I analyzed the chord structure and wrote down a few chords to take some cues as to where the tonal centers were to keep me on track. If I were not able to read and understand the music theory here--I have no gig. There are so many musical situations that steel players could wiggle their way into if composers, arrangers, jingle writers, producers etc. just thought we could navigate the same music as virtually all other instrumentalists are expected to be able to do.

<SMALL>Mike, when you are reading a piece of music on piano, do you see intervals like this, or are you seeing the notes as their letter names?</SMALL>

Randy, I see the notes as their letter names.
I can't look at a piece of sheet music and instantly play it. I have to figure it out, but it usually doesn't take long.

I too have a system to help me read. I describe it in the free supplement I'm offering.

All basic music theory books contain the same information, but most of them are geared toward classical music students. Mine is geared toward people like us, and instead of useing examples from a Beethoven symphony, I used tunes we've all heard many times.

I hope everybody here buys the book. I believe it will genuinely help people understand basic theory, and help them to become better musicians.

I must say that I'm worried about seeming to be self serving and trying to hype it. The truth is I DO make money on it. But please believe me when I say that I'm not pushing it for financial gain.

I'd still like to know what a suspended 4th is.

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Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

Terry, a suspended 4th is the chord you get with just the B pedal, when the 8th string is the root. Instead of a 3rd (which would be the note E in a C major chord) it contains a 4th which would be the note F.

IF I was a young man just starting out; from what I understand (and I'm strictly an ear player), I would learn theory and here is why. I once asked one of the heavyweights if he had thought of playing a certain song and using such and such a change. He said "no, because if I did, it would mean that I would be going to a diferent chord, or change. That was the end for me because I was lost at this point, like walking into the middle of a calc 1V class blindfolded. I could only wish that I could communicate on his level; msybe someday, if the op presents itself, I can show him exactly what I was talking about, I find that if I focus on a certain lick long enough, the "how to", in most cases dawns on me, but if I knew theory I'd probably get there quicker.

I have to disagree with Mike P. You can learn quite a bit of theory, in terms of chords, on guitar and steel, without being able to read a single note of music. You start out by learning the basic chords of one key, then another key, and soon several keys. Then you can learn the number system and play the basic chords in any key.

Once you move beyond the basic chords, knowing scales becomes essential. That's how you know that to get a 7th chord, you add the note a whole step below the root. But I can still play scales on guitar and steel without knowing what written note I am playing. These instruments are almost unique in this respect. They are chord based instruments. If you learn to hear chords in music, and know how to play the chords you hear, you can play without reading music. Learning some chord theory definetely helps, especially when moving into the more complicated chords and progressions of jazz and classical music.

Knowing harmony and chord theory helps you discover things. When you start learning new chords, such as diminished, augmented, suspended, etc., you discover some completely new sounds; or you discover how to play sounds you remember hearing somewhere, but never knew how to get. It's the same with learning new scales and modes.

Knowing how to read music becomes important if you want to play written music you have never heard, or want to play things that are too long and complicated to learn and remember by ear. I can read on piano and sax, but not on guitar or steel. For a written piece of music, I have to play it on piano, memorize the sound, then relearn it by ear on guitar or steel. It's a pain. I wish I could read on guitar and steel, but it would take more time than I have had so far.

Dr. Hugh Jefferys has Instructional material for sale on the Forum. "Sight Reading For Steel Guitarist" #I-HJO1. Check it out.
I had to learn sight reading and theory to do the studio work in LA. For me it took a whole lot of practice and a lot of study. And I had to put myself under a lot of pressure, like playing every chance I got with bands that were reading and jamming. That provides the motovation to reach a goal. The more one sight reads the better one gets. It is a constant. Practice, Practice, Practice!!!! For me that was the answer. I had a real good studio career in Los Angeles for 35 years. Alas, Synths and Computers put a kabosh on most studio work for live musicians. Now I'm playing with some jazz bands & groups and staying fairly busy. I wouldn't be doing that if I couldn't read and know theory.

...

Music Theory and Music Reading are definitely related, complimentary, but different disciplines.

As several have said, the more tools at your disposal, the easier the job becomes. My take is that many folks use theory principles all of the time, whether they realize it or not!

For example- have you ever done this:
You're playing a song in G, and it's about to change from a G to a C chord. You're messing around at the 10th fret with pedals down, and slide back two frets, letting off the "A" pedal, and adding the "E Lower" lever... before releasing to the C chord. Perhaps you learned a similar lick from Tab or watching another player.

Thinking of it in just this way, as a "chord lick" or "move", is very limiting. You might eventually discover that you can do the same thing moving between D and G in the same song, and of course in the same spots in songs in other keys.

A "theory" analysis of this "move" shows it to be the addition of a dominant seventh chord between the I and IV chords, which are a fourth interval apart within the scale. The D and G chords (in G) are also a fourth apart, so that's why the same "move" works there.

The difference is that the theoretical approach frees one from just thinking of the one move- "10th A&B to 8th B&L to 8th No Pedals"- and replaces it with a musical concept- Any two chords a fourth interval apart can be connected by the dominant 7th of the first chord- and that means any chord in any position, and any way of playing chords, scales, or arpeggios to make the dominant connecting phrase. Nearly infinite ideas or licks, as opposed to just the one "move".

Most "ear" players come to some of that knowledge eventually, but it's a much shorter trip with study of basic music theory, using the number system to make the connection to our instrument and tuning.

I'm writing a book about just this approach right now, how to think in numbers theory on E9 tuning- no music reading required whatsoever. I would love to be of some help to people wanting to increase the level of their awareness of theory.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mark van Allen on 06 October 2005 at 06:07 PM.]</p></FONT>

WOW! This post has generated some real talented comments; sorta like the Steel Guitar Forum of olde. That's nice! It's mostly over my head but nice to again realize that all steel guitar TALENT is not
dear and buried. Thanks fellows!

I took guitar lessons from a picker with a masters degree in music. As everyone else has said, the more knowledge the better, but he stressed greatly the concepts that Mark posted here. Theroy is basically the "road map" to use to get from one place to another and when you study the map, you realize there are many different roads to use. Its all those roads that add excitement to the trip and allows one to begin to express ones self and create his own music. Theory provides a foudation to build on and opens up a lot of doors for creativity. I was VERY reluctant to learn it for many years and then when I finally did, I kicked myself in the butt for not doing years ago. Now the challenge, for me anyway, is appying it to steel....James

Reading also has an advantage when learning, because it enables one to play well with others, even if you're not very good! For example, in the earlier Mel Bay books there are many duets. I thought it was the coolest thing to play along with my teacher, and actually be a part of making music.
I used to sight read ver well, now I'm rusty. To answer an earlier question, you do not think each individual note as you play it,the reading is instantaneous with sounding the note.Inversions of chords have shapes that you recognise and immediately play. JP

I had the extreme pleasure of playing a Broadway show with Al Vescovo when he was traveling. To watch him read the charts on pedal steel and then switch to banjo and standard guitar--I can understand why he had a fine career as a great LA studio player with his musical knowledge.

Ray asked
" (1)Reading music; (2)theory; (3)playing music; OR,
in what order should one anticipate this procedure? "

Well you already play music so that's out of the way.

The next would be to analyse a song you already know, (a simple song is fine to start)
to understand it's theory.

How does this song work,
why are the chord's individual notes in their order
as the chords go through their cycle.

Then do that to a song you DON'T know.

Then learn the melodic information from the notes,
( at what ever speed works for you...)

WHILE observing THEIR logic / theory
in relation to the linear chord structure.

That would be most of the shooting match right there.


In each simple or complexe chord cycle,
there is a stacked set of melody lines corresponding to
the chord note intervals in each and all chords. ( such as; I, III, V, VII).


So you chart out each chord,
detirmine the notes for each chord,
and look at the bottom notes first ,
then the 2nd from bottom notes,
and then 3rd, 4th( etc).


Each if these groupings is a melody line in parallel to the ones above and below it.
Not a very interesting one, but a melody none the less.

You can play each note line as single notes ( like a horn sections players).
A good exercise during analysis.

THEN YOU CAN COMPARE THESE 3-4 LINES FROM THE CHORDS, TO
THE MELODY OF THE SONG.
What matches where, what deviates and where does it " stretch" the chords for effect.

This will often give you a lot of insight into how the chords work
with a particular melody line.

The song can be dirt simple, or as complexe as Bill Evans.
The analysis method is the same.
But EACH SONG will have a slightly different logic.

Theory helps you quickly understand the logic,\ both similarities and differences.

So when you arrive at a new song you don't know on the band stand, you will grasp it MUCH faster.
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 October 2005 at 08:12 PM.]</p></FONT>

I have wished a thousand times that I had had the opertunity to study music when I was a boy. I know I would be a much better player today. Right now when I hear a song , if I don't write it down right away I will forget it . I know that learning how to put the music together properly is very important,and to be able to write it is a great tool. If you want to make a profession out of it , reading and theory is a must. I think.please pardon my spelling.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Buck Grantham on 06 October 2005 at 10:04 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>I had the extreme pleasure of playing a Broadway show with Al Vescovo when he was traveling.</SMALL>

I have the extreme pleasure of being able to go hear him play every week at his regular gig.

I think Al (who only plays C6) is one of the greatest steel guitarist of all time. He's up in the same league as Buddy, Reece and Curly Chalker.

I think knowledge of basic music theory is important. One of the most persistent and destructive myths among many practitioners of roots-style music is that "knowledge and practice of music theory will suck the soul out of ones playing". I completely disagree - in fact, understanding of musical form and function opens up the palette of musical choices. How can this be bad? I guess if one wants to be stuck in a rut and always sound the same, it might be. I know musicians who call that 'consistency', and actually get annoyed when I play new things. Go figure.

That said, I think it is possible to be overly reliant on theory and sight-reading (I agree, two different things) to the extent of inhibiting free creation. I have played with some good technicians who really had trouble playing without a score in front of them, and know others who are so theory-bound that they can't accept a phrase or chord unless it theoretically "fits", even if it sounds good in context to most listeners. I'm not a great sight reader, and would like to get better, but I wouldn't trade away my ability to play off the cuff for that. Most of us probably agree that a good ear is at least as important as theory or reading ability.

<SMALL>know others who are so theory-bound that they can't accept a phrase or chord unless it theoretically "fits"</SMALL>

This is one of the fundamental flaws in people who don't know how to use music theory or who put down the use of music theory. Theory should never define limits of what you can play; rather, each theoretical concept defines a small universe of possibilities, sort of like a home planet from which you can launch musical ideas. If you get too far out, you can always come back home, or go to another planet (theoretical concept). Eventually you build a universe of planets, asteroids, stars, and galaxies from which you can hop around at will. But if you you don't have the right rocket ship (technique, musical creativity, imagination, etc.), all the theory in the world won't do much. But if you DO have these talents (rocket ship), and know theory (plnets, stars, galaxies), then the universe is at your command.

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Jeff's Jazz

I like the cut of your jib, Jeff.

I also like your application of theory, even if it asks the question: which came first, the chicken or the egg? (theory or playing?)

I'm listening to your Christmas Song.
Fabulous.
I think I'll take on 'Christmas Time is Here."
It's never too early for Christmas music.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 07 October 2005 at 05:37 AM.]</p></FONT>

Although I would never dissagree with the scholars..I think the issue is more of.

Do you understand what you hear..?

or do you NOT....

Do you GET it

or NOT...

If you cannot HEAR the phrasing, the relationship to the phrasing, then all the theory in the world, all the tab in the world, all the lessons in the world..

.may not be able to teach that...

I am not claiming to be anything more than I am, but I do kinda hear the Music..always have..since the earliest years....

A little bit of theory goes a long way..but a lot of HEARING and understandng what you hear completes the journey...Understanding some simple theory concepts is also very valuable.

Knowing for example what someone is talking about when they shoot you two fingers , 3, 5 whatever..it's a language..one that we should all know as musicians. I'm not taliking about the famous middle finger here...

I read where folks are always looking for a TAB of a certain song or phrase..thats ok..Thats not a bad thing..but..

Me, I feel it may be the lazy way out..many players know a whole lot more than they realize...but don't explore it...

A player who hears something, and then can identify it with something that they have already heard, maybe already even know and play....then sit down and SEEK the phrase from the cranial region ,will gain immense experience .

A recent experience a friend asked me about "Never Go Around Mirrors", do I have the tab.

I said No, I don't even play it..but I know where it comes from...

we sat and listened, I asked him if he heard anything familiar in the position..he said NO..

I played an A Pedal Minor phrase..
He said..YES...How did you figure that out..?

I said..I didn't..I heard the minor phrase..so I knew it was built around that..

He said, I hear it now...

I think too many times early on players and maybe even long term players don't take the time to actualy listen to what it is they are playing..then visualize, then play around it..

it's not magic..

I have always thought the danger of TAB alone puts players in a BOX without an opening...

TAB can be a very powerfull tool if used in conjunction with your EARS....

Our Intrument is indeed very strange..but it is brilliant too....

Step 1 is fairly simple, Step 2..a bit more stressed..step 3 and above, you really need to understand and be able to HEAR what you did in Step 1 and 2..and define it.

This is not the same as us 6 stringers having an entire bandstand career based on Pentatonic Eric Clapton licks in G,A or D for 40 years.

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 07 October 2005 at 06:11 AM.]</p></FONT>

A real factor here for each of us is how we've trained ourselves to learn or process information.

If we tell ourselves that "theory is just too much work, I just want to play". then it's self-fulfilling. The opposite is also true.

When I first started playing, theory was just too much like math to me, which I hated. Eventually, though, I had a real epiphany experience where something I had figured out from a theory standpoint immediately and noticeably changed my playing for the better. From then on I was a champion of theory studies.

If you've ever gotten a new piece of gear with a great big manual, it seems like an impossibility to absorb all that stuff just to use your new keyboard, effects box or whatever. They have long been including "quick start" guides with the big manuals to enable us to get right into using the unit without having to study so hard, and later going back to pick up the fine points.

Proper application of theory, a bit at a time, can be just like a "quick start" for the big mystery of musical mastery- learning a bit at a time, applying it to the things we play every day, and going back to the well to get a little deeper each time.

As in Tony's comment- some 6 stringers play for years using very basic scale shapes, slowly getting better through polishing their ear and touch, and slowly adding a bit of "ear" knowledge here and there. Others study the theory behind what they're doing, adding bits from other disciplines like jazz, pop, rock, and country, and with practice turn into someone like Brent Mason.

The tone and feel of a Buddy Emmons is largely personal taste and skill, but I'd venture to say that a whole lot of what notes, chords, and phrases he plays are directly related to study and knowledge.

I think some folks let the idea of learning theory scare them off before they find out how easy it CAN be. Yes, third and fourth year music majors study some VERY difficult theory. But most of us out here playing gigs will rarely (probably never) need or use the really heavy-duty stuff.

That having been said, Mark van Allen is right . . . take it a few little bites at a time.

Learn the intervals that make up a major scale.

Figure out what the “circle of fifths” means, even if you don’t memorize it.

Learn most of the key signatures.

Learn the relationship between relative majors and minors. (I’ll bet your ear will already recognize this).

You probably already know the I, IV, V changes in many keys. A little lite theory will tell you why your ear expects to hear these changes so many times.

There’s a LONG list, but start here and don’t let it intimidate you. And yes, learn how to read music. You don’t have to read like pro, but it will open up a huge world of information.

One of the best music courses I had in college was called “Sight Singing.”
It turned out to be the best ear training imaginable. One of the best exercises was learning to hear intervals. (for instance) Someone would play an “E” and then say “sing a G#.” Turns out it was great training to be gig player cuz it helps so much in hearing the chords that are coming up.

Chances are one of your local colleges or universities will offer an elementary theory class. You will NEVER regret it.

LH