The Steel Guitar Forum

I was not trying to put down any method and mine is not better than anyone elses. I have found a way that makes sense to me and I still discover new things when I sit down behind the steel. I just think it is important to try to figure out if a certain set of chords could flow more smoothly in one place instead of another.
And analyzing while playing should be a no no no (my opinion). Do the thinking before playing and let the music take control and trust your ears and your heart. They will tell what is right.

Bengt Erlandsen

Thanks Bengt..it sounds like we agree 100%<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 08 December 2003 at 06:12 AM.]</p></FONT>

There are two ways of knowing chords on steel, the chord names and the number system. Knowing the names is useful for reading charts, or if somebody calls out the chord.

But you can play without knowing all the names if you know the root fret for the key and know how to get the main chords by their interval or number, and if you know by the sound or by the memorized progression which number chord to go to. The I, IV, V, relative minor (VIm), II, IIm, IIIb and VIIb will get you through a heck of a lot of songs in any genre. On pedal steel you need to know how to get those with and without the pedals, starting from the root chord for any key. That is way, way easier than learning all those chord names in all 12 keys.

You can play the above straight chords and they sound okay over fancier chords the rest of the group might be playing, such as 7ths, 6ths, dim., aug., etc. The next level is learning how to get these fancier chords from the straight chords you already know. Still, it's much easier to learn how to get IIIdim than to learn the names of evey possible diminished chord.

So you can play fine knowing the numbers and not the names, but the names sure help for reading charts and communicating with other musicians. I can figure out the names if I stop and think, but I'm still working on knowing them off the top of my head. Progress is slow.

I'm not a player of any stature whatsoever, but I've observed that the best players in the world come to the stage at Scotty's with chord charts in hand. That tells me that it's important to know your chord positions and, perhaps more importantly, common progressions and substitutions.

The chord progression is what holds the song together despite improvisations by all melody instrument players. If you can follow the chord progression, then I don't think you can go far wrong even on a song you're not all that familar with.



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HagFan

There are many ways to look at this issue. I think they basically boil down to two:
1. The 'BIG NOTE GUITAR' method
If you're satisfied to take someone else's pre-digested arrangement and harmonization and are happy with the results, fine. That's all you need to know. Put the bar on the third fret; now play string 8 then 6 then press the B pedal. Sure, you're playing a song . . . BUT it will be the only song you know (until you learn the next one NOTE BY NOTE, by rote memorization).

2. Treating music (and the steel guitar) as a subject of study
If you listen carefully to music -- like a MUSICIAN, NOT like a LISTENER, you will hear many common threads that run through music. Some threads are more common in one type of music than others and learning which will help you get a grip on multiple styles. Jazz is not like country or rock, for example. The advantage that listening, studying, and PLAYING stuff from the point of view that you want to be able to compose or arrange completely new music in that style will reap many benefits.

As I mentioned before, a chord is a word. It is built from notes, which are letters. Being able to put those words together to create paragraphs (songs) is not rocket science. It is as complex as you want to let it become. You can study music all your life and never understand all aspects of all music. BUT, the more you understand the more easily you will learn new stuff, because new stuff often is related to stuff you already know and you can learn it more DEEPLY by putting it into a context you already have a handle on.

I said nothing about NOTATION. I'm kind of ambivalent about learning to sight read pedal steel from standard notation. I read like "See Spot run", but am able to take a written piece (be it tablature or standard notation) and play it. Learning to 'read notes' is far less critical in my estimation than learning what the notes are and how they work together to create keys, chords, scales, and melodies.

So, I guess the answer depends on how you want to use it. I can't imagine a professional ( = gets PAID to play) not knowing where to find an A9 chord on their guitar or knowing what notes are in a G Major scale, but I'm told that it does happen. Less often now, I suspect, than in days gone by.

If you plan on playing for anyone other than your pooch and grandkids, learn how to build scales and chords. You won't regret it.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 08 December 2003 at 11:49 AM.]</p></FONT>

Learning musical theory will never create a great player in and of itself.

Being able to play a musical instrument like the ones who have become the greatest, is indeed inate. IE, it was rooted in birth. It is truly a gift from Jesus.

However, ANY good to great player WILL be a better play IF they learn musical theory. I know musical theory. I was trained it in depth. Sadly, it was wasted training because I was not born with any musical talent. As such; no theory; no instruction; no amount of practice; will EVER make me a good player. EVER.

But if you teach the likes of a Jerry Byrd; or a Buddy Emmons musical theory in depth, you will take the two greatest players there has ever been and make them EVEN better.

carl

Did Jimmy Day know chord names, how they are constructed, scale names, modes etc or was he born with natural talent and learned by the seat of his pants?

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http://www.steelguitar.ca

I suspect Day knew some but not all of the names of the chords he played, and he also had a deep understanding of voice movement in a chord progression and how to create tension and release. I don't think it's really important whether he did know all the names or not. You can bet your boots Doug Jernigan and Buddy Emmons and Paul Franklin and Maurice Anderson (etc.) have intensively studied the mechanics of music. You hear it in their playing. The issue is not whether an outstanding talent can succeed in becoming a great musician without studying how scales and chords are built. It is certainly possible. I think the bigger issue is whether the AVERAGE musician can become a BETTER musician by learning how music works.

If you only (or primarily) play E9, theory is really pretty simple. The C6 chords can become more complex and may require more time to study how to use them and what makes them tick. I still firmly believe that you will be a better musician if you understand what you are playing.

Learning theory is similar to learning to block. You spend a lot of time working on it with the eventual goal of not having to think about it. Theory becomes second nature too.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 08 December 2003 at 02:16 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>Theory becomes second nature too.</SMALL>

I think you may have hit on something here, Larry. Some may be misinterpreting that we go through some intellectual process as we play, like "Now I'm going to play the fifth of the six minor chord which becomes the major seventh of the four chord that follows....." It's not like that. All accomplished players play from the heart, or by ear if you prefer. The most important aspect of musical performance is confidence, however, and the formula for that is:

• Talent + Knowledge + Ability + Creativity + Experience = CONFIDENCE

How many of us have the confidence to step on any stage at any time with any group of musicians?

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<img align=left src="http://home.att.net/~michael.holland.2000/images/littleboogie.jpg" border="0">

<SMALL>How many of us have the confidence to step on any stage at any time with any group of musicians?</SMALL>

Does that include rap musicians?

My name is Jeff,
On the stage I do thrive,
Let me tell you 'bout my pedalin'
On "A Way To Survive".

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Jeff's Jazz

Knowing chords is crucial but nowing when to play them and when not is even more crucial i think. But after you learn them it does get easier because depending on what you're playing you learn basic movements(pockets) and then you can go from there.But you need that basic knowledge first
also comes in handy when someone is calling numbers to you of a fifty year old jazz tune you've never heard before. (Believe me if it hasn't happened yet it will heheheh)

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Francis is this chord that you are talking about one that plugs into your guitar ???I cant believe someone has'nt said this already. Francis '' ole buddie '' i'm just kiddin . I also enjoyed talking to you at the Lexington show . It was good to see you again . I'll keep you a spot open in January . Regards,,,Gary.

<SMALL>rap musicians?</SMALL>

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Bobby Lee said earlier..
"I know the names of the chords and the names of the notes in them if I stop to figure them out. While I'm playing, I usually don't think about such things. I think about the relationships of the notes to the chords, the relationships of the chords to the key, and timing."

Thank you Bobby... I play a lot by relationships between positions and only later can determine what "chords" I've used. Glad to know I'm not the only one.

The great Joe Pass once told me ( In his guitar video of course)...

"I don't really know all the names of these chords but I know which ones sound good and fit what I am doing "

He goes on to state that it is more important to understand how to build chords from the Root and their relationships..and to understand which ones sound better is way more important that than to just play chords with titles.

Now he also did state that he could name the chords if he needed to but that was not the purpose of the excercise..playing music that sounds pleasing is..

Who could argue with Joe Pass ?

I suppose I could name chords as I go along but I don't really think about them that way..I think more about tonality and how they add to what I am doing..maybe a 2 note chord or a triad is all that I will play..maybe add extended notes ..based on the relationship and relative positions.This is where understanding your Instrument enters the photo..

I guess basically I am and always have been a position or as others term it, a pocket player...knowing chords out of several positions and relative relationships has always been my approach..

I guess I could name them if you were gonna shoot me..

Now I would also add that if someone called me to do a straight ahead Jazz gig, you know..all the old standards..I would decline..although I love the old standards, this has not been my element..and I have no place being there..Although Stan Getz is a brilliant musician he does not get calls to play tradtitonal Country standards on the Opry..It works both ways..

I suspect there are very very few that can cross over on their respected Instruments and play the " SONG " in the appropriate style....I also suspect that well versed Steel players are probably in that pack of musicians that can..the minions just don't realize it...yet....

T

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 09 December 2003 at 02:57 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 09 December 2003 at 02:59 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 09 December 2003 at 03:01 AM.]</p></FONT>

I think learning the choice chord grips for a particular tuning/instrument, that has evolved from the practical application of many players is the foundation, everything can be built from those starting points. Yes, learn theory and it's application. When your trying to get a handle on one of your favorite player's, that knowledge will make it that alot easier. It all becomes intuitive playing after awhile anyway. Some people are born with great talent and can't really articulate what they are doing, but it is alot of stuff they learned from someone else with a bent on it. The guys I know who don't study very much, sound limited and predictable most of the time. I have been taking Don Helms lines and putting the numbers to the notes to see why it sounds good to me, hasn't hurt me at all and just gives me more apporoaches to build off of.

I have often wondered why someone who plays good would put down theory when they themselves can't communicate with others in those terms. Theory isn't there to make you look dumb if you don't know it, it's there to help you expand you abilities and that's a good thing. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 09 December 2003 at 09:41 AM.]</p></FONT>

Chords are one of the main keys to understanding how melodies work. Once you know the chord tones and the inbetween notes, just add lots of soul and you are there.

All the good pickers know the chords they play - they may not know what they're CALLED, but that's another thing.

I have special names for some of the chords I play,but I can't post them here; b0b would classify them as "profanity". Luckily I don't hit them very often! The night my knee lever fell off I hit a demolished 14th,but the keyboard player said it was pure "L".
~~W.C.~~

John, would you mind explaining what you mean when you say the good pickers know all the chords but may not know what they are called. Maybe that will help me out. I know some of the chords and some I don't. I can name some of the chords and some I can't.

Every chord comes from a larger chord "family"....majors, minors, dominant 7's, diminisheds, augmenteds, sus's, etc etc. There's really not very many families to come from. Most good players can at least hear which family a chord might be from. (after awhile at least hopefully) That's what ear training is all about.

I think the largest family is the dom.7 chords. This is a biggie for jazz players like Joe Pass! For instance, It's not always easy at first to tell the difference between a 13#11, a 7b5, or a b5#9 chord, but more often than not any of them could be substituded(in a pinch) for a plain old 7th chord...which is the basic family they come from.

THis is perhaps the same thing that Rick says above, but when I think about what I'm thinking while I'm improvising chords, is that I'm playing a basic chord with extensions. So I might be playing a B minor, but adding a, then g#,then f# on top with g in the bass, but in my own mind I'm tracking the additions separately from the basic chord, without thinking about what possible chord names there are for the complete chords.
Cheers
Dave

What I meant was to kind of deflate the notion of "divine ignorance" around people who are good musicians but don't have much formal training.

Most of those people spent a long hard time learning their craft and are way above average intelligence - music takes brains as well as heart, don't let anyone tell you it doesn't.

The fact that someone may not know the academic terminology behind a modulation or extended harmony doesn't mean they don't understand it - they understand how it sounds and what it does musically, which is the important thing.

Having a consistent terminology may make it easier to work with some concepts, and it certainly makes it easier to talk about them, but having it all work inside your head, with or without the vocabulary, is what's really important.

I know more about jazz musicians; Lester Young or Chet Baker apparently didn't "know anything" about chords, meaning that they might get confused if you started throwing numbers like iv-V7 at them, or even asked them what key they wanted to play something in. You only have to listen to a couple bars to realise that those guys understood how music worked, though, just as much as people like Coleman Hawkins or Gerry Mulligan, who could analyze it AND play it.

Even Charlie Parker, an intellectual guy but not well-schooled, was pretty vague on theory (Dizzy Gillespie put the labels on much of what we think of as bebop harmony - but he claimed Parker played it first.) You can't say Parker didn't know chords. He knew them all right; he could HEAR them.

Being illiterate is inconvenient, but it doesn't mean you're stupid.

Bird knew theory, he was slow at reading and lazy about writting out heads. Bird was one of the last great harmonic player's, his voice leading was very consistant. Bird would go to the New York downtown library and study certain classical composer's, he was amazed that more jazz player's didn't do this. Bird knew exactly what he was doing theory wise, but was kinda lazy about trying to explain it cause it would require too much foundation to follow what he was saying, so he spoke in very simple terms in interviews. He studied Lester Young note for note during a summer resort gig and learned chords and theory from Buster Smith and the rest of the older musicians he was gigging with. He also got strung out that summer, which would affect his ability to focus and not be distracted by outside emotional head trips. Hard drugs are bad, but this is what happens at first with some musicians.

Well said John....Now another question. Can you or anyone explain how someone that has been playing for a short period of time, say a year or so, never had a lession, and can play circles around some old guy that has spent a life time as well as as a fortune in money doing everything he knows to play better.