Smoking Ordinance--Your Thoughts?

Danny Kuykendall · Post by **Danny Kuykendall** » 18 Jun 2003 8:20 am

I agree with you, Herb. It's distressing that so many people in power would like to limit our freedom for their own political gains. Here in California it's becoming depressing. In Texas, at least you have more legislators that think the way of business.
I know Austin is an exception. My brother lives there and is always complaining about city regulation.
Danny K

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 18 Jun 2003 8:36 am

Herb, you be careful where you eat lunch. If you choose to go to a burger joint, you may be served a fat-laiden meal that could harm you.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 18 Jun 2003 8:46 am

Bars and resturaunts are licensed for public safety by the Board of Health. That means you have to comply with public health laws to run that business. The government has every right on behalf of public safety and health to ban smoking in these establishments. Since smoking has been determined by the Surgeon General's Office to cause cancer, no smoker has any right to give me cancer in a publicly licensed establishment. 75% of people in America do not smoke. The day they ban smoking in bars and resturaunts in ALL 50 states will be a better day for public health in America. Bars and resturaunts would all get MORE business if they banned smoking. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 18 June 2003 at 09:49 AM.]

Ricky Littleton · Post by **Ricky Littleton** » 18 Jun 2003 8:53 am

This issue "burns" me up. I'm a non-smoker, but here's my 2 cents worth. It is plain and simply a first step. While it was said above the smoke/junk food scenario is basically bunk, I hate to burst your collective bubbles by saying today it is, but tomorrow it may not be. Legislating health is the wave of the future for local and federal government. The lawyers are going to feed on this like a school of sharks and once you get all the smoke out of the bars and resturants, they will have no choice other than go for something else to keep the cash from punitive damages rolling in.

Man this issue ticks me off to no end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ricky

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Boss Comp./Sustain, Ibanez Auto-Wah

[This message was edited by Ricky Littleton on 18 June 2003 at 09:54 AM.]

Ricky Littleton · Post by **Ricky Littleton** » 18 Jun 2003 9:18 am

And another thing... (man I want to let this go!!!!)

These crusaders (funded by PAC's and other groups) will continue to push until we will have a set of federallly mandated standards for how we live and what are the socially acceptable practices. Today it's smoking, the attack is on for fast food, next it WILL be the booze, then it'll be goons coming into the clubs and bars with sound pressure meters and there it goes.

If anyone thinks this won't happen, you're badly deluded. These actions are allowed to take simply because people are afraid to take up a counter position. It is big business to support these "causes" because it lets groups tap into the federal and state coffers.

If you let the goverment legislate in a willy-nilly fashion based on the needs of PAC's and "concerned citizen" organizations, you open a flood gate of trouble. And once these laws and ordinances are in place, it's like cooking with cayenne pepper, it's a hell of lot easier to add as required then to try to get it back out when you add too much.

It will never end unless we make it so. People have an intrinsic habit of being like sheep, following without question. Well, I question everything and everytime something comes along that abridges my or anyones freedoms.

We must remember that causes are big business, and if we all knuckle under to them on an issue, they have to find another cause to fight for, else that paycheck quits rolling in.

Whew! I don't smoke, but damn I need one now!

Just a few thoughts from little ol' me.

Ricky

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Boss Comp./Sustain, Ibanez Auto-Wah

John Lazarus · Post by **John Lazarus** » 18 Jun 2003 9:23 am

Interesting topic. I have never touched smoke or drink in my 51 years, but am not morally opposed to allowing others to make their choice. I don't enjoy playing in smokey bars till one in the morning, but until an ice cream parlor pays to hear me play in a smoke free environment from 6-10 PM, I guess that's what I'll have to do.
It seems to me that the marketplace should be allowed to work in this situation. Let the cities require the bars and restaurants to declare whether they are designated as smoking or not and issue the license as one or the other. Folks will then know whether or not they are entering a smoking or non smoking establishment and choose accordingly.
Advertising would be required to reflect this designation and the choice would be in effect for a certain term of years upon which time the business could then change smoking designation for the next period or continue as they were for the next period.
The marketplace would then cause some restaurants and bars to be smoke free and others smoking simply by natural supply and demand and no patrons or workers would be caught without warning or choice.
Wouldn't this concept work well?

Bob Knight · Post by **Bob Knight** » 18 Jun 2003 9:34 am

This subject was discussed on The Forum about a year ago and became quite heated. I stated then and will now, it is another "control issue".

Just my $10 worth.

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Knight on 18 June 2003 at 10:36 AM.]

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 18 Jun 2003 9:36 am

Kevin, I don't think the issue is whether or not the government has the right to ban smoking; it's whether or not that is the best way to deal with a real public health issue that happens to involve a very old and very controversial form of recreational substance use. Why make smoking a criminal offense when you could just keep the smoke away from non-smokers by use of intelligent partitioning of your space and air filters?

But there is a more basic issue at hand here. If government is supposedly made up of people who represent the citizens, and both business owners and their customers are themselves citizens, then the very fact that these establishments have customers makes government interference not only unneccesary, but downright fraudulent.

Ricky Littleton · Post by **Ricky Littleton** » 18 Jun 2003 9:44 am

Amen Tony!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Boss Comp./Sustain, Ibanez Auto-Wah

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 18 Jun 2003 10:14 am

COUNTRY MUSIC--every Friday and Sat. night at low-low Place. Friday smokers only,Sat. No SMOKERS!

Joe Kool Camel

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 18 Jun 2003 10:54 am

I believe in freedom of choice. If you know something is bad for you and you continue to indulge, you also have to realize there will be consequences. That being said, I lost my father in the mid 40s to TB and other smoke related problems. I also have emphysema and smoke related problems. It was and still is my choice to patronize places where smokers are 'in your face'. It also is my choice not to visit these places. After all, it is only a matter of "life or breath"....but, it is my choice.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 18 Jun 2003 12:45 pm

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The government has every right on behalf of public safety and health to ban smoking in these establishments. Since smoking has been determined by the Surgeon General's Office to cause cancer, no smoker has any right to give me cancer in a publicly licensed establishment.
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Sorry Kevin, the government has ZERO right to ban a LEGAL product from any PRIVATE business. If they want to make tobacco a controlled substance, then, and only then do they have that right. But they don't have the balls to do that because tobacco is a huge cash cow for them. Also, the surgeon general's warning is on every pack. That's all the gov is obligated to do is warn you. They are also admitting that there is little evidence to support the dangers of second hand smoke. So, take a breath.

Bill Nauman · Post by **Bill Nauman** » 18 Jun 2003 1:40 pm

Hey Guys, Im not against clean air,I quit 40 yrs of Camels two years ago However, if you get rid of smokers in a bar, you get rid of the biggest spenders in the bar.Get rid of them and you are out of business. When the bars close,Steelers have no place to play.
Plain and Simple Bill in Vegas

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 18 Jun 2003 1:45 pm

I guess I have to figure that if they can limit places that have alcohol they can serve, the government also has the right to eliminate smoking wherever they like. It is a question of having reasonable ideas and goals about it. There is a public park in the heart of midtown Manhattan where they have an area that is no smoking... at first glance, that might seem ridiculous, but as a smoker myself I like the fact that I don't have to feel guilty when someone makes a nasty face at me in the other areas ("Hey, you don't have to be here, go sit where you can be self righteous in peace.") As to the recent bar smoking ban in NYC, I can attest to the fact that shows have seemed a LOT less crowded since they made the rule.

For musicians, and for bar owners and staff, this is a problem I am glad I don't have to lose my business over... someone I know who tends bar said that while she is glad not to stink of smoke (non-smoker that she is especially), she always found it interesting that smokers tended to stay longer, drink more, and tip better. I don't know if that carries over to putting $ in the hat when it goes around for the band... but venues can pay more, if patrons drink more, and staff is happier with more drinks and better tips. I hope nightlife in this town holds up; for me, I am happy that I smoke less... but I hate that I ALWAYS keep losing my seat.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 18 Jun 2003 3:08 pm

Drinking, smoking, and listening to bands is only a pretense, dudes. The main reason people go to bars is so BOY CAN MEET GIRL!

When the government decides to outlaw f%$#..g, then we really will be out of work!

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Jun 2003 5:53 pm

I don't smoke, never did, but one pack in school for peer pressure's sake. I believe there is a need for changes. I like my guns and rifles, I like my animals and don't like animal rights activist. I don't like "blind people" jumping on the "band wagon" when they don't have a clue. I feel the government might be overbearing in this case about banning smoking in public ect. There are better compromises. Makes me think someone else is getting rich besides the tobacco companies. I don't smoke--- got to watch my mother die young, a horrible death due to smokes. My kids don't have a grandma, ect. But she excersised her right to smoke her self into poverty and on into lung cancer. So don't cry "rights" to me. She led a slave's life to the almighty cigatette companys. She worked and gave ALL to "Phillip Morris". >>>If smokers would be more discreet and polite about nonsmokers, and respect their rights to NOT smoke second hand, NOBODY would be trying to regulate them in the first place. No one would care--"Go smoke your self up if you want, just don't bother me". I sure don't want to offend anyone, but I don't understand why a smoker can't last 30 minutes to go smoke away from others. We nonsmokers have to now put up with second hand smoke, so lets just turn it around for awhile, fair play. If a smoker can't stand "not smoking" awhile in public like nonsmokers have to stand second hand smoke now, let the smoker choose to stay away---nobody is making THEM come amongst nonsmokers!! Let them be the ones in discomfort for awhile!!! >>>People don't go to bars to just smoke and drink beer. If that were true, they would buy a case and a carten, and go home. People go to bars mostly for social reasons---to hang out with a crowd, maybe listen to music, go somewhere with friends or spouse, or if single maybe meet someone. I've been married 23 years and love the bar seen----so does my wife. She can't tolerate the smoke very long, and our night out is cut short. Contrary to some comments made , There is a large audience that stays home because of smoke. I'm not for banning. I'd rather see designated areas IN the clubs for smokers with proper ventilation---I still respect the rights of my smoking friends. Any one should be able to go out for Friday Nite entertainment---and find a place that they can sit smokless, or if they so choose, go over to the other side and light up. NOBODY has the right to spoil the fun and enjoyment of others with cigarrettes OR poorly written laws. I am not trying to offend anyone, as I have many friends who do smoke. Maybe I am so passionate because there are some pretty big scars in my familys' lives because of the tobacco companies. Sorry.

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 18 Jun 2003 6:45 pm

When the government decides to outlaw f%$#..g, then we really will be out of work

Herb, I thought the Surgeon General already said "THAT" causes cancer or at least nekkid babies!

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 18 Jun 2003 7:07 pm

Hey Bill Nauman. Long time no see.

You might relate what happened in Vegas as I have seen it. Some of the casinos decided to make non smoking areas for the slot players. As we walked thru those areas they were almost empty. No players around.

The last time we went there, the non smoking areas were gone. It seemed the casinos realized that non smoking areas were also non-money making areas.

Does that still hold true Bill, or has non smoking caught on?

Brett Cookingham · Post by **Brett Cookingham** » 19 Jun 2003 12:42 am

It is great to be able to take my son to see music, bowling, nice restaurant etc. without subjecting him to all that smoke. Face it! if you are a smoker, you are just a junky making everyone else smell your CRAP!

Take your Cig's outside!

P.S. I smoked fo 30 years (but not any more)
[This message was edited by Brett Cookingham on 19 June 2003 at 09:52 AM.]

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 19 Jun 2003 8:30 am

What I find stupid about the law here in New York is that there is no room for compromise. If you are a bar owner, and want to install massive exhaust ventilation systems over the smoking tables, you are not permitted to do so, even if it would eliminate the second hand issue. I am always willing to be considerate, but at the moment I can only say that it seems like nightlife in this town is much much more dead than it ever was in my experience. Any new york players or residents have any comments? Anyone else who has lived through a smoking ban transition want to comment on the impact on gigs, tips, and general business for clubs? I only have anecdotal experience... as in, every place I've been is now emptier, and every bartender and/or owner I have spoken is pretty much saying this is killing them... that has to mean something, and I would think while a musician might like to play in a smoke-free club, they probably also want there to be, um, an audience there to hear it?[This message was edited by Nicholas Dedring on 19 June 2003 at 09:36 AM.]

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 19 Jun 2003 9:23 am

This is really about bars, not public places in general. When New York banned smoking in government buildings, and then restaurants, there was some grumbling. There were, however, enough smokers willing to concede that people should be willing to go to work or eat their dinner without other people smoking in their faces.

A bar is essentially a place of vice. It is a privately run business. Until recently, each individual owner decided whether it would be a smoking or non-smoking establishment. I seem to recall a few non-smoking places. They didn't last long.

I don't recall ever having anyone force me a gunpoint into a bar.

Remember, it is a BUSINESS, not a public service. I also don't believe I heard any bartender ever exclaim that when they became bartenders they didn't know that smoking went on in bars. It is a profession of choice. It has inherent dangers. It's tantamount to a fireman saying "you mean I have to go into that burning building? But it's dangerous in there!"

Nicholas, it is certainly hurting business. I have heard it said that now all the people who avoided bars because of the smoke will now come streaming in, filling the void. Malarky. These folks come, drink less, and stay for shorter periods of time. Good for them, they will be healthier and potentially lead longer lives. You have now forcibly changed the playing field for some 30,000 business owners in New York City. Who will take up the slack?

And how does this relate to Steel Guitar? You still need the draw to get paid.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 19 Jun 2003 11:41 am

NO ONE IS BEING FORCED TO BE IN A BAR!

Except musicians.

Before the smoking ban took effect, the reality here was that if you played country music, you either worked in smoke filled bars or you didn't work. Period.

I am totally 100% in favor of the smoking ban. It's the best thing that ever happened for musicians in California. If you want to poison yourself and wreck your lungs, you have the right to do so, but you don't have the right to inflict your poison on me and wreck mine.[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 19 June 2003 at 06:32 PM.]

Anders Brundell · Post by **Anders Brundell** » 19 Jun 2003 11:55 am

Actually "smoking permitted" should be read "smoking is compulsory", ´cause noone can escape it.
If you can´t make it whithout tobacco, try snuff. Passive snuffing is unheard of (if you´re not in such a crowded place, you put it in the wrong throat by mistake).

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 19 Jun 2003 12:54 pm

In the places I play,everybody has to go outside to smoke and it's been that way for some years now in California. But before that,I played for years in beerjoints 5 to 7 nights a week with a thick haze of smoke hovering over the crowd.I was never a cigarette smoker - I smoked pot in the 60s and 70s. After that tapered off,I fooled with a few cigars over the last decade but by far,the vast majority of smoke I've been exposed to over my lifetime has been other people's cigarette smoke.Perhaps not - but then again maybe that's why I spent this morning sitting in a chemotherapy clinic at UCLA watching a bag of Carboplatin drain into my arm contemplating whether I'll live to see my 2 year old daughter become potty trained.Throat cancer has a tendency of getting you thinking that maybe inhaling smoke is not good for you. 'Scuse me while I go puke. -MJ-

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Jun 2003 7:37 pm

The bar business seems to be picking up again in NYC. The gigs I have been playing in the clubs have been packed and the bartenders I know say they are doing better these days. I don't think the smoking ban will destroy music in NYC.

The clean air is nice but the legislation is scary.

Bob