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Posted: 20 Jan 2002 7:29 am
by B.Jenkins
Mr. Duncan, I cant take much more either, and around here, The poodle is out of sort's and my wife dont say anything, and the cat next door wont even come in our yard, afraid I might string it up...lol.. yep it's next Friday, JANUARY 25,2001... Take care
God Bless
Billy Jenkins
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<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by B.Jenkins on 20 January 2002 at 07:30 AM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 20 Jan 2002 9:38 am
by bob drawbaugh
No Bobbe just MHO. I would nver put down a company that does business ethically. But, on the other hand one that doesn't is a different matter.
Mike, getting two warrantys from some companys is like getting a kiss from you sister. It may make you feel good but it doesn't mean anything.
Posted: 20 Jan 2002 10:01 am
by Mike Weirauch
Bob, I don't care about the warranty, it was the bottom line that impressed me and the fact that I walked out with the guitar. I paid Bobbe less money for an identical guitar than I paid the Aycoth's. I deal direct with the folks a Carter, with Bruce Zumsteg and with Jimmie Crawford and am more than totally satisfied with them but if I ever bought another Emmons, I would buy it from Sleazmour simply because he gave me a better deal the first time. I believe that logic would stear most buyers in that same direction, do you?
Posted: 20 Jan 2002 12:34 pm
by Bobbe Seymour
Getting a kiss from your sister? Are you from Alabama?
Two warrentys? If the manufacturer's warrenty is 90 days and the dealer warrenty is 2 years,a tuning key strips, pickup shorts, legs don't hold position,won't stay in tune, you'll be wishing you had dealt with a dealer that will still stand behind it and still be your friend. I'm still having trouble trying to see your logic,Do you not like Emmons guirars? Is the Billy Jenkins deal poisoning you against this company? Do you really totally understand BOTH sides of this deal? Or are you making your decisions on hearing just one side? Bob, I don't mind an open discussion on this or any matter with you. I highly respect your opinions, you are a friend and I think you are very intelligent, but I just don't know what your comments are driving at. The Emmons Co.? I have just gotten the greatest quality Emmons guitars that I have ever recieved from the company, they even drove over to Nashville to deliver them to me and ask my opinion on the new guitars quality. How many home builders would care this much?
Best wishes Bob,my friend.
Robert Seymour
Posted: 20 Jan 2002 3:16 pm
by bob drawbaugh
Bobbe at no time did I mention a brand name.
My comments were general in nature, and was just an observation of the industry. In any good business deal I look for results not promises. But , I do find it amusing that you feel the need to defend one brand all the time. I also think it's amusing that a company that sells direct to the public will charge you more for buying from them. How is it that a dealer can sell cheaper than the factory? Hmmmmm. Makes you wounder doesn't it. A wise old man once said,"An old building on the corner of the street does not a factory make".
Posted: 20 Jan 2002 4:20 pm
by Mike Weirauch
Bob, I fail to understand what it is you are trying to say other than not to buy a guitar from a dealer. Well, you spend your money with who, on what and where ever you want and I will do the same. As for being amused about paying more to the Emmons Co.(Aycoth's) than to Bobbe Seymour, the proof is in both sale bills. I have no reason or want to lie about this issue and I become defensive when someone who doesn't have a clue about my business tries to insinuate that it either didn't happen or I didn't tell the truth, THAT pisses me off!
Posted: 20 Jan 2002 5:33 pm
by B.Jenkins
Bobbe , If you just got a new Emmons, and they even drove over to your store to get your opinion, When I ordered mine back in June 2001, and havent received it yet, Does this mean that only the rich and famous get what they orderd before anyone thats just an average Joe get's his???? I worked very hard on my day job before I went on disability, and that was my last steel,, and for them to keep putting paid orders in front me,And telling me they dont have the casting to build any yet, Isnt what I would call Morally right,Much less a company thats honest..And to those that keeps saying go to a dealer for your steel, I did, before I went to The Emmons Co, But I was told that the pedals couldnt be switched to the Day setup, it had to be shipped back to the factory, thats the only readon I went direct to the Emmons Co..
In reality, my my steel has probley been built and sold several times to other paid orders after My Money was ripped off., I hope it's being enjoyed to the fullest..
Billy Jenkins
Posted: 20 Jan 2002 7:33 pm
by bob drawbaugh
Mike, I guess it's better to be pissed off than to be pissed on!
If you will reread my post I think you will see your name never came up. I'm not sure why you thought it was directed at you, or why I would even care about your business dealings!
Hey buddy I'm with you. Get the best deal you can were ever you can. No harm in that. The fact that you were able to get a better deal from Bobbe than you or I could have from the factory speaks for it self!
If your feelings got hurt I'm sorry.
That was not my inttention. Please except my apology. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by bob drawbaugh on 20 January 2002 at 07:37 PM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 20 Jan 2002 7:51 pm
by Danny Hullihen
I see nothing wrong with buying a pedal steel from the manufacturer if that's what you want to do, and for what ever reason(s) you may have. Most steel manufactures today are reputable, and some actually really do care about their customers. However, on the other hand, there are also some very good reasons to buy your guitars from an authorized dealer, and I will attempt to list a few of them I think worthy of your consideration, especially when you're making this kind of investment, which isn't small change.
As Bobbie said, a dealer can offer extended warranties past the manufacturers warranty if they so choose to do so. This, of course, is at the dealers expense should service ever be needed during that period of time. Unlike a customer who may have a small deposit on a guitar in waiting, a dealer has to pay thousands of dollars up front to stock the guitars he wants to put on his floor for sale. He not only has to wait his time to get the guitar, but he also has to wait for a time there after until it's sold before he will realize any of his investment back. If the dealer is knowledgable with his products, he will be able to perform just about anything the factory can do regarding special "setups" on a guitar, regardless of what that may be. In the case of Bobbe and myself, we don't just play these instruments, we also work on them, (any brand, not just Emmons,) and we can build one from the ground up if need be.
Despite what you might have heard and/or want to believe, authorized dealers will receive presidence from most manufactures, and the reason for that is because dealers order guitars "all the time" not just once or twice in their life time. For example, a customer might order a guitar or two, maybe up to three times in his life time resulting in approximately a $9000.00 to $10,000.00 investment. On the other hand, some of us dealers will spend that much on guitars in a single month, and if sales are good, every month. Figure that, X a years worth of sales, and the cash flow for a manufacturer is at a minimum... quite attractive. So to answer a question (or moreover an assumption)posted here... Do dealers get special consideration from manufacturers? Do the math. Do we get special treatment because we are "steel guitar stars?" Maybe in some wild fantasy dream we had about it!
I can't, and am not, speaking for all authorized steel guitar dealers here, however, I have no problem in admitting that stocking steel guitars at my store is probably one of the worst investments I make. Nonethleless, just like you, we have a deep love for the instrument that, (through some sort of imagined mental gymnastics,) makes it all worth it to us, despite what common sense should dictate.
I don't know about you, but I remember way back when I was looking to purchase a steel guitar, and I sure enjoyed going into a music store, (albeit few) and getting a "hands on" feeling with an instrument I was thinking of purchasing, same as with any other type of musician looking for a particular instrument of his liking. It goes without saying, steel guitar dealers these days are far and few between, and if they're not supported, well, it won't be long till buying a steel guitar from a dealer won't be an option. Point and case, we not only support our customers, but the manufacturers as well. We do this because we sincerely want to, and we put our money where our mouth is. On the contrary, my friends,where steel guitars and related equipment is the issue, we're not "middle men", not by a long shot, but in fact, we are one of this industries biggest investors and supporters.
Regarding what Mike Weirauch has said, what's to argue about? He not only supports a dealer, but also some of the manufacturers who don't have dealers, and he does this religiously. I didn't see Mike pointing any fingers at anyone. All Mike Weirauch said was "here's what I do, and/or have done," and is offering incontestable proof to substantiate what he said.
Although "price" is sometimes a concern, in my case, my customers don't buy steel guitars from me to see how cheap they can get it, but moreover, in knowing that should they encounter a problem, they can come to me and get it fixed "NOW", not a week or a month from now, but right now, (or at least in most cases.) The same can be said should some modifications be needed. We don't only stock the steels, we also stock the parts needed to do just about anything needed. In addition to that, we also stock just about every steel guitar accessory available. I know that Bobbie does this too, and that, my steel friends, is another huge investment in itself.
In any event, if you want to weigh the pros and cons of whether to buy direct, or from a dealer, listed here was a few things I think worthy of considering. This, of course does not apply to every brand of guitar, as some are not available to retail music dealers at any cost. However, those that are, you can bet that we have a sizeable investment in, and we have our reasons for doing so, be it personal, business, or otherwise.
"Where" and/or "who" you buy your guitar from isn't what's really important here. What is important is that you continue to buy from those invloved in the steel guitar industry, be it guitars, finger picks, or recordings, because with you supporting it, and generations after you, it will help to keep this industry alive.
I can already hear the stones hitting my windows here after saying this, however, I think if we would put as much effort into supporting this unique industry as some folks do condemning it, (and/or those involved in it) it would certainly be a heluvalot better place for everyone.
In any event, that's my home-grown philosophy on the subject here. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Danny Hullihen on 21 January 2002 at 05:00 AM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 12:06 am
by Bobbe Seymour
Boy Danny, you answered ALL the questions!
What you missed, Mike W. covered! I don't have to say anything, so I won't.
Robert S.
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 4:54 am
by Gene Jones
Good points Danny, especially the "hands on" statement. I cannot bring myself to buy an automobile through computer sales, regardless of the stated advantages.
When I buy a car (or a steel) I want to "see it, feel it, and smell it" before I buy it.
www.genejones.com
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 8:21 am
by Steve Stallings
Well now... I agree that buying from a dealer helps support the industry. More importantly, it provides the buyer protection from just the problem Billy has experienced. Even though the current largest builder, Carter sells primarily direct, even they have several dealers. I believe Scotty is an authorized Carter dealer as is Al Brisco in Canada. I bought my Carter direct because it was much simpler and I live close to them. I bought my Zum from Danny Hullihen and received great service. Both of my Emmons have been private sales/swaps.
I love my Emmons guitars...no question about it. Would I buy a new Emmons from the factory? Nope... not after all of the problems I've witnessed with Billys steel. Ron and Rebecca may be wonderfull folks, I don't know them. I do know that after reading that they delivered a shipment of new guitars to Bobbe PRIOR to shipping B. Jenkins steel, I have major misgivings about their business ethics. Here is a guy who has been waiting forever for his pre-paid steel who gets jumped over to deliver guitars to Bobbe? I'm afraid I'd have a little trouble looking at myself in the mirror if I did something like that. Before all of you Emmons apologists jump all over me, you need to put yourself in Billys shoes. This was wrong...dead wrong.
The fact that I own two D10 Emmons, a 99 model and a 2001 model makes me a pretty hard core Emmons fan. It does not mean that I am blind or stupid and willing to forgive anything by the Emmons company. This was handled poorly by the Emmons company from the start until the current delays and the poor guy still has no steel.
So, buy direct? From Emmons? You are joking right? This entire episode is a strong reason to buy from a dealer.
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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 8:41 am
by Bobbe Seymour
Whooo! Boys, The guitars I got from Emmons were ordered long BEFORE Billy guitar was!!!
I keep 15- 20 guitars ordered at all times!
Billy didn't order the guitar from me so why should my orders be put BEHIND his??? See this is what I'm talking about, You guys don't know the whole story. You are just hearing one side, making a judgement and hurting a business that is trying to reorganize for all of you! Every one of you guys are wonderful frinds of mine,Steve S. Billy,Bob D.,Mike W., Danny H.-------If you really want to know the whole story, call me!! There is a lot more here than meets the eye.
Billy, you say you didn't buy a guitar from me because I wouldn't change to a non pedal setup free? What brand guitar were you trying to buy? We change pedal setups on guitars every day. There must have been another reason(I think there was) why you didn't buy from me. Lets not fight about this now. Lets just all stop trashing each other and enjoy steelguitar to the fullest.
Robert S. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 21 January 2002 at 08:43 AM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 8:52 am
by John Steele
I can't believe I'm contributing to this thread but... here goes.
Steve, last week I needed a new vaccum cleaner, and I went down to see my dad, who has been the Eureka vaccum dealer in this town for 45 years.
When I asked about one, my dad gave me this world-weary look and said
"Well, you'd might as well go to Wal-Mart and buy one, because what you'd pay for one there is less than what I could buy it for from my supplier" Is that "right", or "wrong"?
Beats me, and it doesn't matter. That's sadly the way it is.
The fact is that volume is the name of the game... especially in today's marketplace.
My neighbour is a plumber, and he has lately commented that he can buy copper fittings cheaper and faster at the "Home Depot" than he can from his supplier. It makes no sense, but that's the way it is. Again, the reason is volume.
If I owned a little broom-closet steel shop across the street from Mr. Seymour, and I sold 4 steels a year, I'd bet he'd get better service than I would. Somedays I'd be mad about it. Other days I'd be reciting "The Serenity Prayer"
-John
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 9:52 am
by Herb Steiner
<SMALL>I have no problem in admitting that stocking steel guitars at my store is probably one of the worst investments I make.</SMALL>
The thing that many pickers don't realize is that stocking steel guitars in a store is a millstone around the neck of profit for dealer. I'll use a very simplistic example
Let's say a steel guitar that retails for $3000, so the dealer price is roughly $1500. The dealer plops down the 15 bills and the steel sits on his floor for a month or longer waiting to be sold. That's not a steel sitting there, its a bag of money waiting to be turned into a larger bag of money. If the dealer competitively discounts from retail, say 20% (3000-20%=$2400) he makes 900 bucks profit (2400-1500=$900) on his money over the space of one month.
Let's say that same dealer puts his 1500 into Fender Strats that retail for $500 and wholesale for $250. He could buy
six Fenders for the 1500. Again assuming a 20% discount (500-20%=$400), he'd still make 900 bucks profit; but the Strats could all move in one week. Then the next week he does the same thing, and the week after, and the week after. So, in one month, by turning his inventory quickly, his original 1500 turns into $3600 profit instead of $900.
THAT's why you don't see steel guitars on the floor of most music stores.
The secret is that the dealer doesn't fall in love with his inventory, and looks at his merchandise as piles of money waiting to be turned into larger piles of money, and how long it takes to do that influences his decision where to spend his dollars he assigns to inventory.
Steel dealers love the instrument and the general steel guitar community and so, for our benefit, put their money into steels when they could be making more bucks with their bread elsewhere.
When I bought my first brand new Emmons in 1982, I bought it from Clem Schmitz in Minneapolis. I lived in TX, I bought the guitar from a dealer in MN, and it had to be custom built for me in NC. There were 3 reasons why I did that: 1) Clem said that if I ever needed an Emmons, he'd like to sell it to me; 2) I told Clem if I ever got an Emmons, he'd get the deal because he treated me right when I was in MN on tour and he fixed my ShoBud
gratis; and 3) I try to support dealers when I can.
The guitar was shipped to me in TX from NC, and arrived damaged. Without going into the details, there was a lot of finger-pointing of blame between the shipper, myself, and the Emmons Co. I might have gotten screwed on the deal if Clem hadn't been in my corner, working with the Emmons Co. to see that I got the guitar I was supposed to get. A new horn had to be built, and ultimately both Ron Sr. and Clem bit some bullets and made very little bucks on the deal, but they made sure I got the horn I bought and wanted.
I think I ultimately paid somewheres around wholesale price for my 8&7 D-10 Emmons Original; so Clem made NO bucks. And the Emmons Company had to build TWO guitars, not one.
Years later, and not through this deal incidentally, Clem decided to hang it up and got out of the retail steel business. He must have run out of walls to bang his head against!
THAT'S why we should support dealers, amigos.
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 21 January 2002 at 09:56 AM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 10:03 am
by Jim Cohen
I just love it when you talk Spanish, Herb.
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 10:07 am
by Herb Steiner
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 10:17 am
by Steve Stallings
I'm sorry. I did not realize that Bobbe had prior orders that superceded Billys. You are correct Bobbe, I don't know the whole story. I do know that someone emailed me and said that Billy was not the only one in this boat. He is just the only one that was made public on the forum.
I have the utmost respect for the Lashley family, but believe in my heart of hearts that this has been handled poorly from the beginning.
If I were to order a new Emmons, I would order it through Bobbe. (He needs the money
) This is simply because I have known him for a long time and have had prior dealings with him that were fair. I also understand that you need an industrial pair of hip waders when dealing with him
But.... The entire episode with the Aycoths apparently entering foreclosure and Ron Jr. taking over with the resultant negative cash flow and subsequent problems with prepaid, preordered steels has convinced me that ordering from any builder who requires payment up front is a non-starter.
Perception is key. It is critically important that your customer feel fairly treated. Is Ron Jr. the Emmons company? In the minds of all who view this, he very clearly is. There is a huge disconnect between Emmons and the public. The website is several years outdated, no public addressing of this has ever been made by them. I just don't get it... and I WANT THEM TO SUCCEED! Quite frankly, if the Emmons company had one tenth the marketing skills of Carter, they'd blow everyone out of the water. Maybe a little internet 101 course?
It is not enough to simply build a great product. You must also market it well. And yes, I also believe Bruce Zumsteg is missing the boat by ignoring the internet.
(Gee Steve, you know everything! Why don't you start a steel company if you are so good?)
Just my own humble opinions. Sorry if you are offended by it.
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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 11:39 am
by Bobbe Seymour
Forum members, now here is a guy that is a great thinker, yes Steve , you are right, If Emmons had the marketing skills of some other brands, they would be even farther behind. BUT, When you are on the bandstand or in the recording studio giving all you have,you'd better play and sound your best, the producer or bandleader could care less how long you waited or how great a deal you got on your guitar, it just better sound good and you better sound good on it or some one else will be there next time. This is why Emmons and Zum (and a very few others) sell guitars to professionals, and other guitar outlets fill other markets, right? There is a place for ALL guitar builders,Carter,Franklin,JCH,Sierra,Remington,Mullen,Marlin,Excell ,and all the rest, there is a place for all of them. We should just make sure that the correct guitar goes to the correct user for the correct perpose.There is no argument here. Just opinions of what we each believe. As I have said before, I really love steel guitar,I don't care what a guy plays as long as he can sound good on it. Iv'e heard great players sound good on junk. (and visa versa).
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 11:49 am
by Bobbe Seymour
Steve! You want Bruce on this forum instead of working in his shop filling orders? You gotta' be kidding! I want him trying to take care of that backlog of orders, not having fun with us! Keep him working, slip him a little food under his door once a week,give him all the tools and parts he needs and don't let him even go to bed! He is putting out 2 guitars a week now and he is a year behind! Stay after it Bruce!
Steve, Your great! (I'm sorta' puttin' you on)
Robert,----------
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 12:06 pm
by Gary Lee Gimble
A retailer has two kinds of expenses, fixed and controllables. Inventory being a controllable is just a part of doing business meaning, money will be spent or "plopped." Plopped money takes a little longer to "turn around" but that is just a part of being in retail. As a retailer, the cost of doing business is not the consumers problem. As long as there are options for all, most retailers will be creative and do what it takes to make a sale. If buying direct floats your boat and you're confident that any after market needs will be quickly rendered, then go for it.
What I can't figure out is whether to have my p/p rebuilt, buy another new steel, equip my Peavey 112s with a rack system, buy a lap top or learn how to pick better.
Gary Lee
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 12:23 pm
by B.Jenkins
On my last post I didnt think I mentioned a dealers name That I asked about buying a steel from, What I said was, I asked about buying a certian steel, and and I was told, that the pedals couldnt be turned around at the shop, that it would have to be shipped back to the factory, And I never even gave it thought about getting the pedals switched for FREE, because that would be considered shop time.. Bobbe, since you brought it up.
It was the Zum you listed on your sight last June, when I was ready to order..Thats the only reason I went to Emmons, I bought my Sho-Bud from you and was satisfied with that, and you have treated me fair, and as for putting your order in a ahead me or anyone else, I was told that you have a standing open orderd, their to ship what ever they have when they can. If thats the case Where does one fall in line for their order then????
I hope this dosent hurt our friendship, but put yourself in my shoes, It's been a long time coming, and it is supposed to be shipped this week, or at least that what I was told on the 18th, [Last friday} and that next week I would have my steel.
time will tell wont it.
Billy Jenkins
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 12:34 pm
by Herb Steiner
<SMALL>What I can't figure out is whether to have my p/p rebuilt, buy another new steel, equip my Peavey 112s with a rack system, buy a lap top or learn how to pick better</SMALL>
Gary! Do ALL of it! Every time I have my PP rebuilt, buy a new guitar, set up a new rack system,
AND buy a laptop, I really do find myself playing better!!
Of course, this is after a few glasses of the cask-aged Merlot I got with the money I had left over, after I refinanced my house to pay for the other stuff I just bought.
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 21 January 2002 at 12:39 PM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 12:53 pm
by Bobbe Seymour
Billy, our friendship will never be hurt! Now I understand the change over deal. We feel that no one does as good a job working on Zums as Bruce does, we like to ship him any serious work on these guitars. On Emmons guitars, we do anything as these are one of our specialitys. We could have sold you an Emmons though, You couldn't get a Zum from me so you bought a Emmons from the factory, What am I missing here? Did I make you mad on the Zum deal? I also got a little trapped on the Acoth delivery deal as did you, but I knew it would work out,I had been buying Emmons guitars for 35 years and have seen worse problems than this.I had faith, as you will have in the next 35 years. This is Emmons, NOT Enron!(this was funny).
Billy , I'm not mad, I just want to see you very happy, all the way around, If you want to trade your new Emmons for a Zum, Let me know, I'm here for you. If you want to trade NOW and make ME wait for the Emmons, Let me know! This is proof what a dealer will do for you and should shut up all the dirt diggers in the process!
Billy, I will do what you want.How can you go wrong with this deal? And I don't even owe you anything!
Robert S.
Posted: 21 Jan 2002 1:13 pm
by Bobbe Seymour
Also Billy, My deal with Emmons is "I order a guitar and they give my a delivery date on that guitar. I sell the guitar before I even get it----- Sometimes. I'll tell the customer the date the guitar is going to be shipped and he will give me a deposit to hold that guitar (date) for him. This keeps him from having to wait the full time. If you guitar would have been put ahead of mine, another faithful customer would even have had to wait even longer. This would have been unfair. Anyone that wants an Emmons guitar and doesn't want to wait , can have one of my upcoming dates,(or one off the floor)if I don't sell the guitar ahead of time,I put it on the floor and sell it the next week. The guitars ahead of you were sold. As I said before, a lot of people got into this post that didn't really know the facts. I would still rather have Ron Jr. building guitars and taking care of business that defending himself on the internet,(like I said about Bruce Zumsteg) wasting valuable construction time for only a few people that don't even have guitars ordered .
Billy , you have nothing to worry about, Want a zum? Call me! But if something happens that you don't like , Tell me first, If you catch my drift!
I don't get mad Billy, I'm a business man,no time for emotions. Anything we can do.
R.K.S.