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Posted: 5 Apr 2005 1:49 pm
by Donny Hinson
Lloyd, I sincerely thank you for your comments. I can well understand your not wanting to stray from the sound that made you famous, that sound you are most comfortable with. I played tube amps for about 30 years, and while I liked the sound, I was never happy with anything but the Super Twin~Reverb (180 watts) in the power department, since 99% of my work was live gigs. Your own amplification is probably an excellent choice for you, as the vast majority of your work is recording, or playing live where you can depend on a good house system. Those of us who play at the bottom don't usually have that luxury!
Most all of the gigs I do, to this day, provide no auxillary amplification.
<SMALL>...probably the best tube amp ever created for steel; the Fender "Evil Twin".</SMALL>
Keith, you're the <u>only</u> pedal steeler I've ever heard pay the Evil (red-knob) Twin a compliment! All that I ever heard about this amp, as well as my own experience with one about 8 years ago, was the excessive mid-range that it offers. That's a characteristic generally far more suited to lead-guitar work. But, if it works for you, I'm happy for you. My own recommendation would be more along the lines of the ultra-linear (135-watt) Twin, or the Super Twin~Reverb.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 05 April 2005 at 04:15 PM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 2:41 pm
by Don Walters
<U>This</U> is the kind of thread that makes the Forum an invaluable resource!
Good job getting the comment from LG, Joey! Outstanding stuff!
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 2:42 pm
by Marty Pollard
Session 500 since 1981.
Just got the mod done and they replaced the filter caps (or something like that).
WOW!!!
I thought it was great before, but now? Amazing lows; smooth, awesome!
Just took delivery of of a '96 Vibrasonic (bless its little heart).
Doesn't have the crystalline highs of my Session; way too much mid (even cut to 0); bass? forget it, there is none in comparison (ok, a little but...).
And unwanted distortion is everywhere, of course I push my equipment pretty hard on stage and need LOTS of headroom. I could 'make it work' but had to stay conscious of its limitations. I don't need to do that kind of babysitting while I play (there's the other players, after all).
All these years I took my Peavey for granted: plug it in, play, period. The knobs (other than volume) might as well have been welded.
Tone? The only difference is the difference you would expect to find inherent in speaker and circuit design. Both nice but only one really cuts the mustard.
So now I'm the proud owner of a $825 doorstop. Ok, it's not THAT bad; I do like the amp and use it for my Tele practice in my home studio. AND it's really pretty and has a blackface control panel and it says
FENDER on it...
Visitors are duly impressed.
And at my lesson studio, the music store lets me use a *gasp* ss Crate GLX112 or some such and you know what? It's a darn good guitar amp. Good clean, good dirty, good fuzzed, good effects, just plain good.
And finally, I'm always dismayed by the comments; 'IF you can hear the difference' or 'if you don't notice then it shouldn't matter to you'. It's not nice; it sounds like the person is saying he/she has more/better: ears, taste, experience, judgement, what have you.
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www.martypollard.com
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 2:46 pm
by Ray DeVoe
A thanks to Joey Ace and LLoyd Green for the wisdom shared above.
By the way LLoyd, Just about anyone of us lesser players would be tickled to death to have the quality of sound, that you had when you recorded your "Remember When" sound track . Keep sending out that terrific material.
It was the above track that got me playing around with tube amps and now I own 2 of the Vibrosonics.
Thanks again
Ray DeVoe
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 2:52 pm
by Marty Pollard
Ironic.
I just wanted to note that I composed the previous post before I refreshed my browser to read Mr. Green's comments.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>those crystalline,
crackling highs, the beauty of the breathing sound of the tubes, the
warmth..... I think they are warmer, with a modicum of intermodular
distortion that enhances rather than diminishing the tone. The solid state
amps have a harsh, too clean, nasally, mid-rangy sound that is offensive to
my ears, at least on records.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
From my perspective viewing Lloyd Green as the preeminent performer on pedal steel it's difficult to say but I find my observations to suggest the opposite.
Now, who ya gonna believe?
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 3:53 pm
by Andy Zynda
SS amps supersede tubes?
No, and they never will. SS amps have their place, and it's a pretty big place, (PA, Bass, Keyboard Amps, and Pedal Steel)
But Tubes will always rule the 6-string, harmonica, and lapsteel (blues style).
Just an opinion, and I was the SS man for the first 35 years of my musical career. I disliked tube amps in general. Then, one day I sat down and **really** listened to the sound coming from my favorite ss amp, and an old, 3 tube harmony amp that I had just repaired. I was up until around 4AM, mesmerized by what came out of that amp.
The quest for that warm sweetness was on. 4 Years later, I have 3 SS amps (Bass Nemesis, Fender Steel King, and a Keyboard amp) and 13 assorted tube amps, mostly Vintage Fenders. (always looking for more too....)
Again, just my opinion.
-andy-
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Andy Zynda on 05 April 2005 at 08:08 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Andy Zynda on 05 April 2005 at 08:10 PM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 4:55 pm
by Joey Ace
Now ya did it, Marty!
You use a Session 500, I use a Nash 400, who's gonna believe Lloyd??
Here's LG's response:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>"Marty Pollard is back! He was one of my favorite posters when I first saw
the steel forum. Hello Marty.
I think we're closer than you think. First, comparing the reissue 1996
Fender Vibrasonic to my Black Face Twin is not talking about the same
creatures. I've played through those amps and my impressions parallel
yours. Not my cup of tea. However, during the 1970s, when I was doing some
recording at the Happy Goodman Family studio in Madisonville, Ky (with the
Goodman's and others), there was a Vibrasonic in the studio I always cut
with and it sounded as good, or better, than my twin! But these reissues
aren't the same amp, in my opinion.
Now in all fairness, I think the world of Shane Nicholas, Fender's Marketing
Manager for amps, and they apparently do have a winner with the Steel King.
But I'm imprinted with my Black Face Twin. It's been put in remarkable
condition by the local "studio" repairman in Nashville, Kye Kennedy. He's
the guy all the studio guys like Brent Mason, Dan Dugmore, etc. call at the
first sign of amp trouble. He's young, disgustingly intelligent and really
good. So my Twin may not qualify as a prototypical Twin.
But please, don't think the amp I am using is the same as your 1996 V. They
couldn't be more different. And keep in mind, I'm strictly referring to a
studio recording amp. Playing live shows I prefer to use the Peavey Amps of
any description."
Again, thanks,
Lloyd Green
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hmmmm.... that last line is worth rereading. Could we be on the right track?
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 5:41 pm
by Al Brisco
WOW...What a good post!
I want you all to know that the Evans Amp Company now have all their models available with a tube pre-amp...hence it is a Hybrid, having a solid state power amp section.
I maintain one of the reasons pedal steelers prefer the Solid State amps (especially for live playing) is the fast transient response. Over the many years of playing Solid State steel amps,I have found to hear a definite 'Time Delay' when using a tube amp, from the time you pick the string until you hear it.
This is very minute, but definitely noticable.
However, the Evans Company have removed this 'time delay' from their Hybrid amps, so that they respond similar to the SS amps.
The biggest drawback being an Evans dealer, is that now I have to carry twice as many amps on my floor.
I am still experimenting...Hybrid vs. Solid State. It has come down to prefering the Solid State version for live playing, & the Hybrid for sessions.
My 2 cents worth.
Al Brisco
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 7:11 pm
by Al Marcus
This is a great post!. All I can say is that my old twin reverb with 2 -12inch JBL D120's That I had in the 70's, was the best sounds of all the amps I ever had. But as someone mentioned, close to 90 lbs was just too much for me to pick up, and I was just a young man of 51.
I think Lloyd had the right idea to break it into a Head and speaker separately. Now I wish I did that, I thought of it, but didn't follow through. I could pick up 40 lbs in each hand that way. And kept my twin.....al
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My Website.....
www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 8:30 pm
by Marty Pollard
Not funny Joey!
He didn't really mention me by name.
Stop toying with my emotions.
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 8:38 pm
by Bob Hoffnar
I have used a few hybrid set ups and my take is different than Brad's. I have found that a solid state pre amp and a tube power amp gives me much more of what I want than the other way around. Standell and Traynor(or was it Music Man ?) made stock amps like this. My main hybrid set up before I went back to old Fenders was a Furman PQ3 pre and a VHT 2/90/2 power amp. That thing was a monster. They are still really heavy though.
An interesting thing about the lower difference tones that come off tube amps is that I made an entire piece of music based on difference tones I play as a solo on the steel.(The piece is called "I Remember" and its on my own self indulgent CD) When I used a THD Bi-valve there was no way I could get that amp to get those sub harmonics. The way the amp is tuned makes it impossible no matter what tubes I put in it !
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Bob
intonation help
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 05 April 2005 at 09:43 PM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 8:55 pm
by Scott Swartz
I prefer tube pre and tube power amp, but if I had to use a hybrid it would be tube power amp.
SS power amps are too stiff sounding, this is due to the high damping factor of SS amps from the high degree of feedback used. The feedback allows the amp to control the speaker excursion in a closer to ideal fashion (mathematically speaking), but I think it sounds and feels wrong.
There are ways to lower the damping factor of a SS amp.
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 9:13 pm
by Dan Tyack
I'm with Bob Hoffnar on the tube power amp thing. IMHO the power amp section is the most important tone wise in the tube amp mojo.
What I have been doing recently when I need to play clean and loud is using my THD BiValve head, driving one half of my THD 2X12" cab (the Celestion), then going from the line out of the THD into a little AER acoustic amp, with the tone controls set flat. I run that amp into the other half of the THD cab (the K120). I get the sound I want at any volume. That AER puts out at least 150-200 watts (hopefully I won't blow out the JBL).
Actually, for years I used a THD Univalve head as my preamp. It didn't drive any speakers, but I used the line out (after the power amp section) to drive either a transistor or tube power amp.
Posted: 5 Apr 2005 10:59 pm
by Joey Ace
Marty,
Yes he did. I wouldn't add anything to a quote from anyone. Seriously.
-Joey
Posted: 6 Apr 2005 3:33 am
by John Lacey
Hey Al, is Evans offering the hybrid in a rackmount model, ie, tubes?
Posted: 6 Apr 2005 9:31 am
by Brad Sarno
I'd have to agree with you guys who prefer the tube power amp. I only favor the tube-pre/SS-power hybrid setup because it's a better compromise with the tone + power/weight issue. The weight has everything to do with the tube power section.
I love my '69 Twin, especially when the power tubes begin to get pushed just a bit. That kind of smooth punch and slight crackle/sparkle on top is THE sound for my taste. It makes me think of Lloyd's Live at Panther Hall and Brumley's Buckaroos Live. What great tones. The Twin is heavy, but its 80 watts have never been to low for me, even in loud situations. But we're dealing with gravity as we make our tone decisions. There are lots of players who like all that bass frequency headroom that really does take 200+ watts to make happen. Tom Brumley's main amp is a modified '59 Fender Bassman with a D130. It's less than 50 watts and he swears that it's almost always been plenty loud for him. That amp is also lighter than a NV400. I've played a number of steel gigs with an old Fender Deluxe Reverb with a JBL D120. It was sometimes barely enough power, but the tone was great and it filled a small club. That amp has 22 watts of power. It records incredibly well.
Another factor worthy of discussion is how tube rigs are much easier on the ears than SS rigs. The tube rig will be less aggrivating on tinnitus and less damaging to the ears than the SS.
Brad
Posted: 6 Apr 2005 9:48 am
by David Doggett
When I started playing steel in the ‘70s, Sho-Bud sold me a used Fender black-face Super Reverb with a 15” JBL speaker. I now know this was a complete mismatch. The amp was meant to have a 2 ohm load (four 8 ohm 10s in parallel), and was straining to push that 8 ohm single speaker. Although it had a beautiful warm tone at low volume, it was big and heavy and distorted badly at moderate or higher volume (actually, there wasn’t anything much higher). My teacher (Charley Gore) had a new NV 400 that I longed for but couldn’t afford. In comparison to the Fender, it had powerful clean tone. But I never heard him play it at high volume.
When I started playing steel again a couple of years ago, I lucked onto a NV 400 (with low end mod) for $200 and snapped it up. I was happy with it until I started playing with a loud rockabilly and alt-country group in rock clubs. When I took that solid state amp up to top volume to keep up, it sounded like crap. I then started on a quest for a tube amp for pedal steel. I have tried everything that comes through the huge local Guitar Center and bought a bunch of amps on the Forum and Ebay. My observations mirror much of the above comments.
• With pedal steel you need about four times more usable (clean) volume than a regular guitar (because we attack notes with the volume pedal more than half off, reserving the rest for sustain; and we play with finger picks instead of a flat pick; and we fret with a bar held in our hands, instead of holding the string against a solid fret board; and because we sustain and swell chords that are prone to harmonic distortion). Guitar players don’t understand that. For regular guitar, a 25 to 50 watt amp at top volume is plenty loud for rock clubs and dance halls, and they only need 100 watts for a concert hall (and these days you can usually mike a smaller amp through the PA). A steeler needs 200 to 400 watts just to keep up with the stage volume these days. Peavey and Stereo Steel are the only amp makers who understand that.
• Since 100 watts is the top volume for most guitar amp lines (tube or ss), the huge selection of modern amps out there (mass produced or boutique) is mostly useless to steelers due to inadequate volume alone, not to mention the shrill mid-rangey EQ that is unsuitable for steel.
• For a ss amp, the top third or even top half of the volume range is useless (sounds like crap). So you need a 300 or 400 watt amp to use the 100 watt range you need to keep up with guitar players using 25 watt amps. If you don’t need that top volume range, the several makes of ss steel amps will give you a decent, clean, but sterile tone. Many older traditional country players use only moderate volume and are happy with these. You can also mike these for loud venues and get by okay. I was not happy with these at rock club volume levels, and miking the amp is not always a viable option in these places. The sterility at high volume is not pleasant, and any clipping at high volume sounds horrible, especially when trying to mix with the creamy, rich-textured tube sound of guitar players. Elephant f**t is the descriptive term that comes to mind. I was not alone in these thoughts – the other members of the group also hated my ss tone.
• Most tube guitar amps are made for “crunch” (break up that softens the pick attack), “touch sensitive early breakup” (distortion when cranked past mid-volume), and compression-sustain (sustained overdrive that replaces what steelers do with the volume pedal). Fender silver-face amps (not black-faces) were built to avoid all these problems. They play clean to the top. This was a marketing disaster that doomed these amps among rock and blues players, who to this day disdain these “master volume” amps. But these are the best amps ever made for steel. Unlike ss amps, their warmth and sizzle are best at top volume. A 100-135 watt SF Twin or Vibrosonic (with an “o”) will blow away a 200 watt NV 400. A 180 watt Super Twin will blow away any solid state steel amp made.
• A black-face Twin like Lloyd uses will sound warmer at moderate studio volume, but will not have the clean head room of a silver-face for live use. And a lighter 60 watt SF Pro Reverb will probably have as much clean volume as a BF Twin.
• SF Twins and Super Twins are way too heavy as combos (75 to 100 lbs). My Super Twin Reverb in a Dual cabinet weighs a manageable 50 lbs., and regular Twin heads range down to 40 lbs., depending on the model. This also gives the flexibility to set the amp next to the steel for easy tweaking, while placing the speaker(s) wherever they are needed. I find it easier to match my volume to the stage volume with my speaker(s) at the back of the stage. The head cabinet also gives one the flexibility to use 15s or 12s, whatever ones preference.
• The Vibrasonic (with an “a”) is a pc-board reissue (I’ve had two) that does not sound as good as the old hand-wired silver-face Twins, Duals and Vibrosonics. I don’t know if it is the absence of hand wiring, but something about the newer circuits causes worse tone. These reissues sound better than ss amps, but not as good as the silver-face amps. I have not tried an “Evil Twin.” I also haven’t tried the reissue Twin custom 15, but I suspect it has compromised tone like a Vibrasonic. The new hand-wired reissue Tweed Twin sounds very good, but only has about 60 watts. Also, for steel I prefer the richer tone of 6L6s to the more chimey tone of EL 34s. My SF Pro Reverb with a 15 has about the same power, sounds better to me, and cost about a quarter as much. But if the volume is adequate for you, and you like a thinner sound, the new Tweed Twin might be good for you. Also, the Peavey Delta Blues and Classic 50 are low volume (30 watts and 50 watts), low cost option with the chimey sound of a Fender Tweed.
• Many modern tube amps have “clean” channels that theoretically might sound as good as the old SF Fenders. I have not made a systematic study of these, but have not found one that sounds like a SF Fender. They are either too clean and sterile, or not clean enough. Most of them are too low powered, even the top of the line 100 watt heads. The best SF Fenders for steel were the last of the line 135 watt models with the ultra-linear transformer, or the Super Twins (180 watts). I have also not made a systematic study of component (rack-mount) tube pre and power amps. They are out of my price range. You can get a SF Twin or Super Twin in the $500 to $700 price range. I got a Super Twin chassis (which is all I wanted for a head conversion) for $350.
• It would be nice if a boutique maker would make a 200 watt tube head for steel, but I’m sure the cost would be outrageous. It would have to be modeled after the SF Fender tone. I tried a new 300 watt all tube Bassman head. It was plenty loud, but too clean. It didn’t have the tone. As far as whether the pre or power amp is tube or solid state, the sound I love seems to be specific to 6L6 power tubes (don't care for EL 34s), so I am skeptical about a tube preamp with a ss power amp. Also, I have a Music Man with a ss pre and 6L6 tube power amp. It sounds better than any all ss amp, but not as good as an all tube amp. It is incredibly small and light and will probably blow away a NV112. I can hear those rich 6L6 power tubes, but I miss the creaminess contributed by the tube pre amp. So I'm thinking all-tube is the only way to go.
• Now about the live versus studio thing. I think I feel opposite to some of the opinions above. A tube amp certainly sounds better in the studio. But with the way steel is mixed down today, and played back through the average car radio or home stereo, I don’t think much of the tube tone comes through. You might as well use a ss amp and tube modeling (which sounds good at low to moderate volume). I don’t think anyone would notice the difference (this applies more to background steel recording, and not necessarily to a solo steel album). But live, at rock club volume levels, that’s where you need real tube tone. My POD XT Twin model at top volume came out sounding like the NV 400 I played it through. Maybe a more powerful hi-fi ss amp could have reproduced the model adequately. Line 6 makes the Vetta 300 watt head as their top of the line. So they seem to be aware that you need lots of ss power to reproduce the tube models at high volume. But Dave Graffe recently informed us that the Vetta uses the old POD 2.0 models rather than the good XT models. Maybe you can program in the newer models, I don’t know. But why bother, when for half the price I can have a real Super Twin that sounds gorgeous at top volume.
• So we don’t currently seem to have affordable high volume tube amps being made for steel. The good news is that today you can learn about all this on the internet through things like the Forum, the Fender Amp Field guide, and Ebay.
• My current goal is to have a complete line of SF Fenders, so I never have to carry more weight than I need (I’m 58 with an artificial hip). I have a Super Twin in a head cabinet (180 watts, 50 lbs.), a Dual head (100 watts, 46 lbs.), a Pro Reverb combo with a 15” Blue Marvel speaker (60 watts, 60 lbs.). My next project is to put a Vibrolux chassis (40 watts) in a custom cabinet with a 15” speaker, for playing with quiet acoustic groups.
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 April 2005 at 11:14 AM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 6 Apr 2005 6:48 pm
by Dave Grafe
<SMALL>There are ways to lower the damping factor of a SS amp</SMALL>
like running at the lowest rated impedance of the amp.
Posted: 6 Apr 2005 6:58 pm
by Bob Carlucci
David,,, you said it my Silverface brother!... I had a BUNCH of Blackface heads over the last 6 years...Nice and warm and sweet[tubeygoodness]BUT they DO lack headroom.. The Silverface Fenders are the best sounding amps for steel IMHO..Loud and clean,enough headroom for most venues,and still have that sweet Fender sound..
I just found something that interested me and I bought it.. its in transit from Washington state. Its a 72 Vibrosonic head that has been "blackfaced"... I think it will be a great steel amp. It is like Dave's and Lloyds Fender head.. Combos cut down for easy transport... Paid $375 shipped. It is supposed to be just gone through and sweet as maple syrup!... We'll see.... bob
Posted: 6 Apr 2005 7:41 pm
by Eric West
I've gone from a Peavey Session 500, the first one in Portland in 79 to a Nashville 400 in 92, to a NV112 last year.( I still alternately use all three, though the 500 now has a K140 in it I like a lot.)
I imagine my next one will be even lighter.
EJL
Posted: 6 Apr 2005 9:38 pm
by Dave Mudgett
I didn't say this in my earlier post, my point was that a lot of different things can give a very good sound. But of my many amps, TO ME, far and away the best sound for either steel or jazz archtop is my '69 Dual Showman Reverb into a cab with a JBL D-130. We're talkin' sweet, crisp, clean tube tone to the max here. That is, if I can turn it up enough for it to breathe a bit. It's often too loud for club gigs.
Posted: 6 Apr 2005 9:50 pm
by David Doggett
Bob, the unique thing about Vibrosonics is that they were made for a single 8 ohm 15" speaker, which is what most 15s are. Of course, with a Twin you can always run two 8 ohm speakers in parallel, and a Twin really sounds good driving two 15s.
Eric, do you mike your ss Peaveys? The reason I ask is that it seems like most people who are satisfied with ss amps don't use them above the middle of their volume range, and if they need more volume they mike them through a big PA.
Posted: 7 Apr 2005 6:01 am
by Jim Peters
I'm grateful to those of you with better ears than mine. It's important that there are those pushing the tone envelope, making equipment better for everyone. I have 45 yrs on 6string,so my opinions are way more informed. I have heard hundreds of great guitar players sounding great on what most would consider to be junk gear, and have heard lousy players sound lousy with great gear.
Tube amps are great,no doubt, but you can't ignore the little NV112. I waited 6mths before I bought a steel amp. I read what the older guys on this forum have been using, and thought about a Webb or Evans, twin, or any PV stuff, but all these guys playing for YEARS are switching to this NV112.
My steel playing is not good enough to really use the subtle tone difference perceived by some of you. My guitar playing is, and I use a SF Deluxe. I guarantee that I could play out with a PV Bandit, and there wouldn't be 1% of listeners that could tell the difference.
I'm content to let Eric Johnson test the batteries and cables, and Brad, keep looking for that Holy Grail, because the normal dudes like me ABSOLUTELY need(and appreciate) you to keep pushin' that sonic envelope!
BTW, I heard Brad's playing on a CD by a local artist that my son is connected with, and it is absolutely KILLER, very unique and tone to die for! sorry for rambling, JimP<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Peters on 07 April 2005 at 07:02 AM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Peters on 10 April 2005 at 08:15 PM.]</p></FONT>
Posted: 7 Apr 2005 7:17 am
by Keith Cordell
Keith, you're the only pedal steeler I've ever heard pay the Evil (red-knob) Twin a compliment!
Well, like I said, take the input tubes all the way down to 12AT7's... If they stay 12AX7's they are not suited to steel at all. The Evil Twin was David Lindleys amp of choice for years, and he ran clean for the most part with an OD device in the chain. So I am not the only one... a steeler here in town that I cannot identify any longer is the one who told me to try it; I tried his setup and was pretty blown away even at lower volume. Something to look into, anyway.
Posted: 7 Apr 2005 7:33 am
by Ken Fox
Bob, Peavey had the hybrid amps back in the seventies and eighties. They were the Classic, Deuce, Mace and Artist. The first used discrete transistors in the preamps. The VT series that followed used opamps in the preamp. The Mace was the amp of choice for the Leonard Skynard group and still is. I have a Mace VT, wish it was the early Mace! It still is the cleanest tube amp I have ever had. It sports 6-6L6GC tubes, 2-12" Black Widows and 160 watts of power. It will keep up with my old Session 400 for clean volume. They came in a head version. That would be the ticket for a steeler who wants a hybrid tube amp!