Free Tab Reader's Guide to Standard Notation

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 2 Jul 2006 12:12 am

Well hell, east coast meet west coast. Why is it that is becomes necessary for someone to blast another's input to the forum. You don't agree with the topic and it's initiator, start your own topic and voice your opinion that way. John Mc has been assisting many of us, who try to teach new students the instrument, with new methods and procedures for many years. He has an excellent website and really doesn't have to verify or even take challenges to his methods. The proof is in the pudding. I didn't have my arm twisted to even read this topic but I became very disgusted at the methods used in an attempt to control a situation that I, for one, am doubtful of the info that I received from one individual. Matter of fact, it's already been flushed. Wouldn't it be a great world if the word "CONTRol" were superceded by something like "THanks" John for taking the time to explain what many of us use daily if we're in the teach mode.

BTW Jesse, do you have a website where you've bared all the information you've posted here? John does. Just a thought. Further, don't give me the BS treatment that this is a Forum and open for any discussion. You don't have to be rude to disagree, but I guess today's world dictates that is the new method of operation. Bahhhhhhh!!!
Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 2 Jul 2006 12:40 am

Fred, I'm from Texas.. Where’s your web site? I told John it was cool what he posted, but if you can't handle facts that are true and you can't offer any of your own based on personal experience, how the heck can you argue beyond sticking up for your friend? Do you even know what were talking about? We are talking about using tab as a teaching aid. He appears to be against it and I am not and I stated why. Tab and notation work good together and I'm standing by that, cowboy!

Fred, I just looked at your profile and I don't know if your serious or not but your occupation said you were “retired/retarded”? Please believe me that my reference to retards was a slang word and I didn't think you'd call yourself retarded, I thought mentally disabled was what it was called for awhile now. If your funning me, good job. If your for real, you might change you profile to read “retired/musician”, it means the same thing most of the time. Keep studying, would you like some free tab with music notation to help you with learning to read music notation? Let me know and I’ll send you some so you can see what I’m trying to explain. Take care now.
[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 02 July 2006 at 02:01 AM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 2 Jul 2006 12:55 am

Jesse, you're right. I don't know diddly squat about what you and John are discussing. I've only been at this stupid business since 1948 and I learn very slowly. But my momma taught me to disagree with a little more finesse than to be rude to the nth degree while taking another side of a discussion. You may have come from Texas but my old daddy would have whupped my butt for some of the things you've said and with the manner in which you've said them. Again, it's easy for me to just brush over your name when I see one of your posts and if you want to continue this discussion, let's take it to the email route and spare the forum such crap.
Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 2 Jul 2006 1:03 am

Fred, you could've done that first off yourself you know? I edited my first post to you, sorry you didn't see it in time. Let me know if I can help you in anyway. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 02 July 2006 at 02:11 AM.]

Chippy Wood · Post by **Chippy Wood** » 2 Jul 2006 1:24 am

Thanks John,
You're generousity by providing this material has, and will, continue to teach both myself and my Grandson something we both should have learnt a long time ago. We both find it interesting and it will no doubt continue to be an inspiration to us.
Thank you once again.

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Ron (Chippy) Wood
Emmons D10
Emmons D12

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 2 Jul 2006 4:47 am

Jesse, here's an unedited post- (I had to go back and tweak the previous to get all the quotes right, as I didn't want to ever misquote you.) I am going to reiterate the points I wanted to make from the git-go that you have twisted on me:

1) I believe that tab is great and good as a learning tool in the right context. I believe that with standard notation, it can really be helpful. belive that tab is often presented without rhythmic notation. I find that to be lacking, because it is incomplete. If I want to learn a piece that I don't own the recording of (or have handy) then I'm sunk.

I never advocated for the banishment of tab. I am sharing my opinion that by itself, it is a poor form of communication. That doesn't make me anti-tab.

2) I believe one can use both standard and tab for teaching. Personally, I have found many students who have relied on tab only and feel frustrated.

I don't care what you use for teaching. Different strokes etc. I don't expect the world to conform to what I think is right. I just offer an opinion.

3) I object to tab, used by itself, as a learning tool, in the cases of people wanting to (in the words of a marketer) "get beyond the tab" and really gain an understanding of what they are doing as a well rounded sax (or your instrument here) player or composer or improviser would understand it. There is a common language between players who are fluent with standard notation, and it makes it easier to communicate with them. Thanks a win-win for everyone involved.

4) If someone chooses not to read, whether it's tab or standard notation or the New York Times, it doesn't make them a better or worse player than anyone else. Musicianship is a multi-faceted thing, a lots of elements come into play. Knowing what to call stuff just makes it easier to organize information and build upon that foundation. What all great players have in common is truly regardless of ability to read dots or numbers.

I am not a "reading snob". If you are born with an amazing ear and can sail through whatever situations you find yourself by using that ear, then you have it made, because learning all this stuff is a pain in the ass. I wasn't born with the ability of a Wes or Bird, so learning how to hear and what the language of music is has really helped me develop as a musician.

5) I agree open minded learners should have access to every learning tool available. My kid could learn a lot from TV (good and bad) but it's not the optimal learning tool and if it were the only one available it would be less than inadequate. I have seen requests for tab of the simplest stuff on the mandolincafe.com site, which suggests that the idea of trying to learn something by ear is just too hard. Now, some folks just play for fun, and don't have the time or inclination for the hard work that ear training requires-but I feel they are missing the development of a crucial part of their overall musicianship- the ear, without which one is fairly sunk in music (let alone steel guitar!)

6) The Forum generally stands for civilized discourse. That doesn't mean you can't be passionate, opinionated, etc. It means you expected to not be abusive.

I don't consider myself to be above anyone else, including you, in presenting my point of view. If you disagree, fine. You have disagreed in a very obnoxious manner, and that's not fine with me or some other folks who have chimed in. If you want to be the kid that pees in the pool, fine, but in this pool everybody knows it.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 2 Jul 2006 7:06 am

John, this narcissistic rage your having because you think you’re not being recognized is obvious and normal human behavior. You continuously editing things out of your posts and reposting new things for example is somewhat suspect? My post to Mike Neer was one teacher to another and I was defending the use of tab. It was here that you started in with me and I simply stated one true fact after another. Peeing in the pool, give me a break John, lol.

Many of us here on the forum are life long musicians and will never get past being lucky enough just to gig. Many of us are the very parrots you speak about and that's how we became pro's and learned our instruments, you to no doubt?

I never called you a reading snob anywhere or anything close to that in anyway? I will point out since I play Bach on the classical guitar, that tab is faster than classical guitar music and easier to read. Tab was invented for the lute for all the same reasons I have been talking about hundreds of years ago.

"Born with an amazing ear and can sail through anything with it". I believe I stated I remember when there was no tab and that it sucked because I spent alot of time having to record copy? In another thread awhile I ago I posted that it was easier to "be a good mechanic on your instrument than a real artist". I have relative pitch, as do most musicians. We all have the same amazing ear if you work with it and stay with it, what ever I have is from a lot of hours of hard work that is still continuing.

I don’t care what your friends have to say because they aren’t saying much, they also don’t sound like music teachers or even gigging parrots?

You know why therapy for most people takes so long John, they have to be approached with carefully well timed interpretations because anything more direct causes a rage reaction at being called less than perfect. Wonder why I don’t get up set with your put downs and you do? This isn’t about the tab anymore and we both have pretty much said our peace, so I think were finished here.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 2 Jul 2006 7:27 am

LOL!!!!

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 2 Jul 2006 7:38 am

Chippy- Glad to help. Please pass it on to anyone you think might be interested in it!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 2 Jul 2006 8:11 am

Thanx John

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 2 Jul 2006 12:33 pm

My First Response:
Gut Reaction: Jesse, John McGann is a good friend of mine. He's one of the best musicians and most insightful music teachers I've ever met in 30+ years of playing music. Simply stated: he's the best. Jesse, you sir are no John McGann.

My 2nd Response:
On Reflection: The above response is needlessly provacative and insulting so I should delete it. But "What the ***k .... it's true.

My 3rd Response:
Reasoned Response: John has posted extremely insightful, well reasoned, balanced comments that take into account his years of experience tempered by an understanding that there are no absolutes in music. For free, he's posted material for which he could easily charge big bucks. I fail to see why this would insite a barage of insults and self-congratulatory claptrap.

My 4th Response:
"You get more flys with honey than with vinegar"
Esther, my grandmother

My 5th Response:
I regret it wholeheartedly every time I dive into one of these threads yet somehow I can't stop myself. Is there a forum 12-step program, b0b?

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 2 Jul 2006 1:35 pm

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/troller.htm

Lord, I resembled a few of these on the roster myself!

I guess your taking your own advice by editing your "look like a jerk statements" out.

Nope, left that one in. Along with the agreement that tab with notation is helpful, and tab has it's place. Man, this was fun

[This message was edited by Pop Psychology Victim John McGann on 05 July 2006 at 03:02 PM.][This message was edited by John McGann on 05 July 2006 at 03:03 PM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 4 Jul 2006 1:10 pm

I'll leave the file up so the link will remain valid and we'll give the occasional bump in hopes this file can be of use to as many as are interested...

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 15 Jul 2006 11:34 am

for the interested

[This message was edited by John McGann on 15 July 2006 at 12:35 PM.]

Mike Ester · Post by **Mike Ester** » 15 Jul 2006 12:47 pm

I taught her the blues scale and invited her to sit in with a blues-rock band I was playing with, and she had a great time, and told me later it was the first time she had ever tried to inprovise, and loved it. She said that she learned more that night (and had more fun playing) than in the previous 10 years, and agreed that there was something very definitely lacking in her musical education.

Mike, you have given your friend a wonderful gift that she will treasure always.

Good on you, mate.

Mike Ester · Post by **Mike Ester** » 15 Jul 2006 1:06 pm

John, this is very good of you to offer this. Thank you.

Stephan Miller · Post by **Stephan Miller** » 15 Jul 2006 2:11 pm

John, I've been scrolling through your book-- what a wealth of material clearly explained. Thanks so much for offering up the results of your diligence.

--Steve

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 24 Jul 2006 6:36 am

Thanks for your kind comments!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 25 Jul 2006 3:21 pm

John, I, too, would like to thank you for such a wonderful gift. I have struggled with notation for many years because the lack of a good foundation in my early years. It has caused me much difficulty in understanding chord structures and complex intervals. I very well play by ear and, given enough time, can figure things out...but what a hinderance that is!! Takes a lot of the fun out of playing...and tab doesn't fill this void.

IMHO, tab is most benificial to a player who already knows the tune well from memory, but hasn't figured out how the original artist did what he/she did and where. I see it as a study/research tool.

Again, thanks for providing such a useful tool for us hackers to learn from.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 6 Aug 2006 9:51 am

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 21 Sep 2006 5:15 am

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 21 Sep 2006 6:00 am

Thnx Jhn!

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 21 Sep 2006 6:07 am

IMHO, tab is most benificial to a player who already knows the tune well from memory, but hasn't figured out how the original artist did what he/she did and where. I see it as a study/research tool.

The problem is that tab is not reliable in terms of where something was played...when you relate to a passage as notes rather than a single position, you get more mileage out of the musical idea, get to know the instrument better. Published tab is the transcriber's interpretation of where something was played and not neccessarily the gospel truth- as I mentioned many posts ago regarding some Django books-the pitches are right but the tab is wrong in terms of how the Gypsies approach technique (for example, never switching strings with an upstroke).

Lloyd Green advises being able to play anything on pedal steel in 3 or 4 places. Just because so-and-so writes a certain tab position when transcribing so-and-so #2's playing, doesn't mean it was played where so-and-so tabbed it... of course, having one way to do it is way better than no way, but by doing the detective work, you gain a ton of command.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 21 Sep 2006 1:40 pm

Blah blah blah...Ever hear of finger pattern memory? Musicians who have to play different types of gigs with different bands rely on it to remember the songs? It's like martial arts, the guys who win on the street and in the tournaments use the same approaches as a foundation first. Robert Johnson was known to learn a song and play it the same way all the time because he played so many different songs and types of music. If you do your home work as far as chords, scales, arps etc. you'll see those under your fingers even when your reading tab. And there's no law that says you can't play different positions for tab your learning if you don't agree with it. If you have 3 or 4 different ways of doing a hit, it's questionable how well your gonna do on the fly when your ass is on the line. It's the same with learning 150 different performance pieces. You'll never get it down right if you don't decide of a finger pattern memory that's gonna be the way you play the song, you'll end up sounding jerky. If you practice your theory foundations, you'll know what the tab is saying note wise and where the options lay out on the neck if you want to depart from the finger pattern memory.

My first gypsi guitar book was bought in the early 80' and it's in tab and talks about sweep picking, so? It's by Ian Cruickshank who spent alot of time in Europe hanging out with all the famous gypsie musicians and he even made a documentery. Those gyspie guys can't even read music and write all their stuff in tab?

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 21 Sep 2006 2:46 pm

Jesse, you're making my point. Love ya man

edited for spelling[This message was edited by John McGann on 21 September 2006 at 03:47 PM.]