Singers vs. Steelers

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Dec 2005 6:15 am

I don't exactly agree. While there are many people who can sing a good song, the ones I personally would classify as "great" really aren't that plentiful. I suppose that's because many great stylists don't have particularly good voices, and that precludes me from ever thinking of them as "great" singers. To me, a great singer has to have a great voice - there ain't no gettin' around it.

Also, I feel you should take into account the breadth of a singer's talents when judging them as "great". A singer who can do a great job on a few songs is not really a great singer, IMHO, any more than a steelplayer who can do a great job on a few instrumentals is a great steelplayer.

No, "great" is a pretty high honor, and I don't go bestowing it to someone just because I like their music.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 16 Dec 2005 7:46 am

Bobby, are you serious?

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 16 Dec 2005 8:07 am

...Boinkability Factor (or "B-Factor" for short) as being the primary driving force behind success in the music world...

It really is that simple. Always has been. Thanks David!

Terry

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Dec 2005 9:07 am

David, although I'd agree with your "B-factor" idea, there's been many exceptions, from Kate Smith to Pavarotti. For people who care about real music ability, though, physical attraction has little place in the equation. Being a fan of a singer who's "hot" usually has nothing to do with singing, and everything to do with libido.

In that respect, you're right.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Dec 2005 9:14 am

b0b. I am glad you used the word LESS. "LESS than a thousand great pedal steel guitarist"!! That means any where between 1 and 1000. "Great"??----maybe less than 75..60...50???? Don't know.

Maybe a thread should be started in the Steel Players section and see if we really could come up with a thousand "great" pedal steel players--not just "good", but great!

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 16 Dec 2005 9:23 am

I have been known to get up from behind the steel,& sing a tune or two.

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Jack Therrell · Post by **Jack Therrell** » 16 Dec 2005 9:28 am

As much as I like to hear a steel even played by one of the 1000 players, without singers there would be no recording industry as we know it.I was afraid that marimba would affect bOb's thinking. ,lol Jack

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 16 Dec 2005 10:28 am

Imagine a world without George Jones. Ray Price, Johnny Paycheck, Wynn Stewart, etc! Singers of this calibre are instumentalists. Their instrument is their voice.

Post by **b0b** » 16 Dec 2005 10:32 am

Imagine a world without Britany Spears.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 16 Dec 2005 11:12 am

Why would you even evoke the name Britany Spears? She's an entertainer for young kids such as my 9-year-old daughter--hardly what I'd call a musician. Britany Spears is to music what "Saved By the Bell" is to drama.

There are tons of amazing singers out there, and to further my statement, I'd like to add that I think Tom Waits is one and Celine Dion is not (good pipes, but so banal). A good singer brings life and personality to a song.

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 16 Dec 2005 11:26 am

There is no Britony Spears in my world. I don't paint all the singers with the same brush. Choice is what it's all about.
Most of the musicians on this site, myself included, couldn't carrry Ella Fitzgerald's laundry, when she was alive.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 16 Dec 2005 12:12 pm

Andy, you said it better than I could have. The human voice was the first instrument and in many ways it's still the most compelling.

We better not even get into the voice versus a 50-something, overweight white guy sitting behind a contraption that's a cross between a guitar, a snow blower, and the dashboard of a 1956 Oldsmobile.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 16 Dec 2005 12:14 pm

I think it's a bit scary that some of the lists being cited on this thread of allegedly 'great' singers only contain country artists!!!! Of the list just above this post, maybe George Jones could be described as having a superior technique, but the others couldn't live next to really fine singers (Fitzgerald, Mel Torme, Sinatra, etc). I wish that people would broaden their musical horizons a bit more - it could have a profound effect on their steel-playing if they absorbed music with greater depth to it.

Andy makes a fair point, but I'm more impressed by Celine Dion because she's clearly worked very hard at her craft. I apply the same principal to instrumentalists as well - Buddy Emmons isn't as accomplished as he is by good luck, as we all know.

And to Ray M.: If you thought the Wilburn Brothers were good harmony singers, try listening to 'Take Six'...

RR

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Dec 2005 12:16 pm

Most of us personally know and have played with singers who are as good as or better than many singers with recording contracts. Vocal ability isn't the #1 requirement that the recording industry looks for. Vocal ability is a very common talent.

On the other hand, good steel playing is an unusual talent that's totally overlooked by the industry. Even if you're a great steel player, recognized as such by your peers, there's little chance that you'll ever be able to record your own music without paying for it yourself.

And to those who say "all steel players sound alike", who's fault is that? Could it be that you've never bothered to compare Buddy Emmons with Paul Franklin, Chuck Campbell, Chas Smith, Greg Leitz or Dave Easley? Talk about recognizable styles! The only steel players who sound alike are those who take great pains to copy another's style.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 16 December 2005 at 12:18 PM.]

Chuck Cusimano · Post by **Chuck Cusimano** » 16 Dec 2005 1:17 pm

"WORDS!" Some people actually want to hear the LYRICS! The STORY.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE steel guitar, but if you're going to tell the singer to shut up, you may as well have no need for the Bass, Drums, or any other instrument in the band. I like STEAK but, without the potato, the green beans, and bread, it's an incomplete meal.

I'm not offended by this thread, just surprised.

Lukas Foppes · Post by **Lukas Foppes** » 16 Dec 2005 3:06 pm

B0B --
You sure know how to stir things up.
For years I used to say I could find something
good to admire in every musical genre.
Not so anymore.
Dumb lyrics.
Angry screaming.
Rap, without music, but lots of profanity.
Intentional extreme distortion.
Volume enough to reach the parking lot.

The target audience, spending money seems to be teenagers with wild pumping hormones. Thats where the millions is being spent.

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[This message was edited by Lukas Foppes on 16 December 2005 at 03:10 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 16 Dec 2005 3:12 pm

I would only add: opera.
Bad music and bad acting, as my Guild judge used to say.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Dec 2005 3:43 pm

"WORDS!" Some people actually want to hear the LYRICS! The STORY.

Well, if every third song had a vocalist, and had good lyrics, that would be okay with me. As it stands today, every song on most radio stations has a singer, and two thirds of the lyrics are crap. Often the only redeeming feature of a song is the steel licks in between the stupid words.

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 16 Dec 2005 4:11 pm

You do have a point there, B0b!

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 16 Dec 2005 6:19 pm

It all boils down to personal preference.

Personally, I almost never listen to anything with a vocal on it. I'm a picker. I want to hear what other pickers are doing. As far as I'm concerned, if aliens from another planet came down and abducted every singer on the face of the earth, not only woudn't I care, I wouldn't even notice.

Lately I've been listening to a lot of classical guitar and guitar-mandolin ensembles. There's a lot of very cool stuff going on in that genre.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Dec 2005 6:46 pm

Hm.. Many valid points, both pro and con singers, here....
Personally I have always tried to emulate (the great) vocalists in my playing, both on regular guitar and steel. As I use to say; Ray Charles is my favorite guitarist...

I've always worried that if we only listen to 'ourselves' - as mirrored in other fellow pickers - there will be a whole lot of inbreeding going on and less chance of evolving...

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Dec 2005 7:01 pm

The only steel players who sound alike are those who take great pains to copy another's style.

Well, easily half the steelers I've ever known are trying to sound like Emmons, so that would explain a lot!

As it stands today, every song on most radio stations has a singer, and two thirds of the lyrics are crap.

Well, I agree with that one, Bob. "Top 40" instrumentals (which were very big in the '50s and '60s) are all but extinct today. The last two that made decent acclaim were "Chariots of Fire", and the theme from "The Sting", both going back a few decades.

IMHO, at least half of the songs others seem to be impressed by come off as crap, to me. I think rhyme, meter, imagery, and a good story are all forgotten concepts in today's songs. To some, a song is "catchy". But when I read the words, it's more like gibberish...just words and phrases strung together with little cohesive thought, no rhyme, and no story.

We had a lot of this junk in the '70s with psychedelic music, but it's even more prevalent today.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 16 Dec 2005 8:10 pm

All joking aside, Just so some do not get the wrong impression about me, I DO like allot of singers. I love the older country music and W. Swing. But, not everyone back there were great singers, either, but some were, to me at least. I also like Sinatra, Tony Bennet, Ela F. Mel Torrme, Etta James and some of the Big Band with vocals, and more, that are of other types of music, too. They cover different moods, and I like them for what they did. It's like paintings--some are portraits, some are scenery. Variaty is good. A good singer is just one of the colors that help make the picture complete. I don't think a picture is complete with ONLY a singer, or ONLY a certain musical instrument. But sometimes, that's even alright, once in awhile.

I can't say I feel the same about this so called "new" music, though. I'm with b0b on this one. This new stuff tends to not have much substance to it. To me, going back in time is where you find the good music. Back when a singer also played an instrument, AND grunted the equipment, along with the rest of the band.

[This message was edited by James Morehead on 16 December 2005 at 08:14 PM.]

Russ Little · Post by **Russ Little** » 16 Dec 2005 8:41 pm

I find that I really don't pay attention
much to the words. I have played tunes
for years that I would be hard pressed
to recite the lyrics.
Am I somewhere out there in left field?

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 16 Dec 2005 8:53 pm

. . . and I think I can recognise Kenny Chesney when I hear him - I don't like it very much, but I can recognise him.

Well, I think that if I get to where I can recognize Kenny Chesney (or any of his ilk) I'm in big trouble!