Are audiences getting stupider???

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 29 Jul 2004 6:48 am

We have a local steel critic here in Portland.
Whenever he enters a club, I'm sure many of us local steel men will think of the title of this thread!

Disclaimer:
Any similarity to steel players living or dead is purely coincidental.[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 29 July 2004 at 09:50 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 29 Jul 2004 7:47 am

I don't think audiences are any stupider today than in the past. I got sick of "Elvira" and "Achy Breaky Heart"...

These were just trite re-hashes of old melodies. "Elvira" was a ripoff of the old song "Searchin", by the Coasters, and "Achy Breaky Heart" was a ripoff of the old song "I'm Gonna Knock On Your Door", by Paul Peterson, I believe. At any rate, the "unsophisticated" drivel that proliferated in the '50s is still with us. Don't get me wrong, there were a few good groups back then, but the public was dumbed-down by rock 'n roll in the '50's, and they've been pretty much the same ever since.

At least the singers and musicians of the '30's and '40s didn't have problems staying on-key!

Burr Oxley · Post by **Burr Oxley** » 29 Jul 2004 8:58 am

"Elvira" also owes a LOT to "So Fine" by the Fiestas, and "I'm Gonna Knock On Your Door" (the "parent" of Achy-Breaky) was by Eddie Hodges, who teamed with astronaut John Glenn on the Groucho Marx show back in the late 1950's.[This message was edited by Burr Oxley on 29 July 2004 at 10:00 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 29 Jul 2004 9:17 am

This might be a stretch for some of y'all, but I blame television.

Before television, people read a lot more, for entertainment. In the 1920's through the 1940's, the great songwriters read the works not only of the classic writers of the past, but also their great contemporaries. The Irving Berlins, Ira Gershwins, Billy DeSilvas, Sammy Kahns, et. al. were educated men who wrote for people who were readers.

Parenthetically, the popular music of that time was much more melodic and based on western classical music, because the songwriters studied the classic composers of their time.

To read, you must be involved. Your mind's eye creates the "video" of the data you're bringing in. You must know the meaning of words, have a good vocabulary. With television, you can be brain dead and experience it. It makes you lazy, apathetic, or involved in lowest common denominator entertainment.

Television is the main culprit in dumbing down our society.

Television is also the reason western swing died, told to me by none other than Leon McAuliffe. A man who should know. People stopped going dancing for entertainment, staying home instead to watch television.

Like any technology, from the discovery of both the benefits and dangers of fire, cable television has also contributed to the greatest explosion of available information ever in history, as a precursor to the internet.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Larry Allen · Post by **Larry Allen** » 29 Jul 2004 9:51 am

You've got it Herb. Living in the country my kids and I played all kinds of music on several different instruments and learned how to draw. All their school friends from town grew up on TV and malls. Quite a difference when they all got together. Of course my kids bitched about no TV in our house, but now they're putting the grandkids thru piano, band and art.Long live the instrument makers!!!

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Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 29 Jul 2004 10:29 am

Well said, Herb - I'm in complete agreement with you.

We didn't have TV before we moved to our present home (well, we had a VCR and a TV, but no cable), but it's part of the 'package' and included in our maintenance fee. We found ourselves getting sucked into watching utter drivel! We snapped out of it, thankfully, and now we reach for the Scrabble board instead! You may smile at this, but I feel more alert and stimulated as a result - it was a lucky escape!

(I do still watch the golf 'majors', but that's different

!)

RR[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 29 July 2004 at 11:31 AM.]

Rich Weiss · Post by **Rich Weiss** » 29 Jul 2004 11:41 am

I agree with Herb, but I'll second the cable TV arguement. Having to fill dozens of channels, 24 hrs, made them reach for practically anything. Mainstream TV, nowadays, is almost soft-core porn, in some instances. Mainstream radio is unlistenable. So maybe audiences are getting dumber, cause they don't know any better. Or maybe they just don't agree with me.

When MTV came out it, that was the beginning of the madness.

30 years later, half the women I see have tatoos. And looking like you just got out of prison is in. A far cry from 'Leave it to Beaver'. [This message was edited by Rich Weiss on 29 July 2004 at 01:09 PM.]

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 29 Jul 2004 12:23 pm

Excellent points, Herb! Today's music has a pre-fab visual image inextricably attached to it, by way of music video. Nothing left to the imagination. Funny how the combination of these two media equals less than either on its own.

Not a fan of music video.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 29 Jul 2004 1:30 pm

Herb, I guess you've nailed it. How many times has somebody asked,"Have you SEEN________'s new song?"
But we still get requests for "O Lord, it's Hard to be Humble," and that predates videos. But there was always the occaisional "novelty" song, and we knew it's purpose, and it's place.
Back in the day, when Kurt Vonnegut was all the rage amongst us freaks, in "Player Piano," some foreign sheik visits an American family. The housewife is happily singing some government-generated doggerel, played on the government-owned radio station, and the family is stirred up because one's social(and thus economic)status is determined by IQ.
In fact, I may have to get a copy, and see if it reads as well without the orange sunshine!

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 29 Jul 2004 2:26 pm

Welcome to the monkey house!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 29 Jul 2004 2:34 pm

Yes, I have no bananas, I have no bananas today

Tea for Two and Me and You

Lambs eat oats and does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy.

Bird bird bird is the word

Alone again naturaly

Louie louie oh we gotta go

Muskrat love

.... are they GETTING stupider... hmmmm.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 29 July 2004 at 03:35 PM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 29 Jul 2004 8:42 pm

Television is the main culprit in dumbing down our society.

Why would anyone want a "box" in their house that was programmed to make them feel inadequate (especially when you can do that all by yourself), if you don't buy the products that are for sale or don't look like the people you're watching? I used to work in the industry, the programming is considered "filler", whose sole purpose is to keep you there until the next commercial. [This message was edited by chas smith on 29 July 2004 at 09:42 PM.]

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 29 Jul 2004 9:34 pm

I'm going on 2 weeks w/out the tube myself. Let my satelite bill go unpaid. I am feeling better. I really think I am. Smarter too. Well maybe a little? I'm starting to have an uneasy feeling about this thing I'm staring into now though. I can hear the ants marching through my kitchen. I'm starting to remember that tune I wrote 30 years ago. My eyes dont seem to have that buzzing thing going on behind them like before. ahhhhh! Peace!!!!

Must go look at stars in sky....

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 31 Jul 2004 11:09 am

Steve.

As an answer to your original question:

I'm not sure how they could...

The online dictionary shows this state as:

1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.

And as we all know..

"Stupid is as....."

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 31 Jul 2004 4:48 pm

Boy, Eric, I sure wish I understood your post! I guess I'M getting stupider, as well as older...

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 1 Aug 2004 1:37 am

Well I think you asked: "Are audiences getting stupider???"

I simply put forth that I didn't and/or don't see how they could, as in my estimation, they are about as stupid as they can get.

Genius has defining limitations, and is boring after a point.

Stupidity on the other hand is immense, boundless, and gazing into the eyes of half the people I deal with is like looking off a cliff. I actually feel a slight vertigo with some of them.

I'm sure you know the gig..

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 1 Aug 2004 3:12 am

OH, you mean like the lady that loved steel guitar???

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 1 Aug 2004 3:43 am

There are many people who go out to a club or other type of peformance,
just so thay can shut down the proprieties they work so hard to maintain all week long...

ie Let their hair down and have fun.
The boss ain't here and i got beer.
Mom's not around I can act the clown
I can't say that to the girl....
but I can dance with her while the singer does it for me.

Now "fun" can take many forms. and one of the more popular it seems is to not pretend you are smart when youze aren't...

Drop the facade and think not ,
go forth and deconjugate your verbs,
obsfucate your general deference to authority figures
move in erratic but enjoyable fashions that suggest the sex life you wish you had

And of course applaud any lyrical content that tweaks the nose olf the powers that be and maybe let you say vicariously the things you could NEVER say in your, oh so PC, work places, or fine mother run homes.

Or they could all be just a bunch o wankin' idiots.

Besides, if you have ever been in the vicinity of a late 70's Mosh Pit ,
during the 2nd playing of Twist and Crawl, Twist and Crawl,
you would just find this discusion a bit dry and academic LOL.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 01 August 2004 at 04:52 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 1 Aug 2004 1:05 pm

'It's such a fine line between clever and stupid"

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Bob
intonation help

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 1 Aug 2004 6:43 pm

There are just too many entertainment channels (audio and visual) and not enough material for the pipeline.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 3 Aug 2004 5:30 am

..never mind..[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 03 August 2004 at 07:04 AM.]

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 3 Aug 2004 8:05 am

Are audiences getting stupider?

What a question, by how exactly would one judge that?

Music Hall entertainment would seem rather simple and lame by standards today, although with the advent of so-called reality TV we seem headed in that direction again.

Televsion killed Western Swing, no way.
Post war trends led to urban build up and growth, in some areas where this was a peak, Chicago, Detroit, SoCal etc the industries and music grew.
TV itself was part of the process, Spade Cooley had one of the most popular shows on the West Coast for years, however his big band was part of a dying breed.
You follow post-wr trends, a change in crowds and the advancement of amplifier technology, it became easier to entertain with a smaller electric band.
I mean, Hank Williams and Lefty Frizzell did as much to kill Western Swing as anyone with their trimmed down bands. No soloing, no old jazz tunes, etc.

Stripped down honky-tonk and Hillbilly Boogie through the West And Southwest, while Urban R&B jump bands changed what people wanted.
The Big Bands era was already on it's way out, not too mention the recording band of 1948, that really wiped out a lot of pe rformers who never recorded again after the ban was lifted.

Even bandleaders like Cooley were sweetening their sound, which helped the generic process that encouraged audiences to expect less individual acts, and be less tolerant to variations on the musical themes they had gotten used to.

Have audiences gotten any dumber, has an average country band gotten more sophisticated.. I don't see how.

In a lot of ways I think Western Swing bands are probably seen as the most progressive form of country music that evolved from the genre, mainly due to the jazz players and some of the absolute killer players that emerged from the scene.
And yet, a lot of the key bands relied on older jazz tunes, novelty songs and all sorts of goofiness that would make a modern audience react in total embaressment.

I've never bought into this whole trip that Television or indeed rock and roll were the death knell of popular culture.
And the following:
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If you are a musician or artist, you will always be searching for truth, new expression and fulfillment, and bland corporate media will never satisfy that. Your average listener takes what's given them, but musicians will always go hungry
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I think you'll find that plenty of artist and musicians are behind various bland concepts, sure they're just making a living, it's all a matter of taste.

I notice a certain bias on the part of anyone who grew up with a certain period of music, and that bias is that their era was a remarkable time of innovation, the pop tunes were so much better, etc.
Methinks this topic smacks of the same sort of nostalgia, "oh it was so much better when I was young."

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 3 Aug 2004 11:25 am

Jason, we have exchanged communications for a long time and I have found disagreement with few of your musings, which is why I am surprised by your untypical statement, "I notice a certain bias on the part of ANYONE who grew up with a certain period of music".

Granted, those of us of a certain age do share many characteristics (i.e. our feet hurt, our stamina is diminished, and we are dying more often, etc) but our minds and beliefs remain individual and independant for most of us.

That's why it surprised me to see the description "ANYONE OF A CERTAIN AGE" to stereotypically describe a group of people.

It indicates a bias toward ageism that is untypical of Jason Odd's usual decorum.

........which of course leaves the actual question unanswered that has nothing to do with age:

....Was music better "back then", or is it better "now"?.....

www.genejones.com

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 4 Aug 2004 12:11 am

Nah, I'm referring to the concept of nostalgia shaping one's perceptions on what music is 'cool' or happening or great music as such.

It might seem like ageism, but I see it prevalent in my own age group as well.

My point, is how could one judge these things as we're all coloured by the experiences of the past.
One might argue that we all have reference points that are similar, and most people don't look any further.
Someone like Herbster might have heard Western Swing when they were young, and never listened to anything else.
Herb went into folk, bluegrass, rock, country-rock, progressive country and still digs old school western swing and honky-tonk.

His experiences give him a depth of vision of musical styles that goes deeper than the average punter, and yet the guy that dug nothing but WS his whole life and Herb have that in common.
(Herb, no disrespect.. you've done it all man, and it helps make a point)

Most of us out there don't get the chance to see so much and experience so much, the average Joe doesn't want their experience to get much further than the roots of what they first heard as popular music, although a commercial variant that's easy to understand is always a good thing.
I don't see how this varies from the past in the slightest.

General illiteracy and the television society are related and relevant, but to look around and say stuff like, oh Kid Rock's in the charts, people are dumbass stooges of corporate labels, well in reality ... we always were, it's just that some people tie their era's moral code (whatever that is) into the equation.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 4 Aug 2004 2:42 am

Jason, I was only suggesting that "when a net is cast upon the water, it may catch not only fish, but possibly some turtles, snakes, and an old tire or two".

Good and appropriate comments in your post....I understand your point.

Best wishes my friend...