The Steel Guitar Forum

D<u>e</u>ryl Dodd and Keith Gattis. Hal Rugg was on the latter with "The Puppet" as a high point.

<font size=-2>[Hmmm. You mean Hal Rugg is still available for session work?]<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Evans on 21 July 2002 at 06:49 PM.]</p></FONT>

Lloyd Green one time said (Paraphrasing), 'You can judge a song's character by taking away the words and seeing what you have left'.

Today's country doesn't hae anything left when you take away the words.

Its not COUNTRY MUSIC. Too many man hater songs by too many females. Martina, Chicks with Dicks and the like. Who ordered the fuzz guitar???

b0b,

You're right, FM pretty much doesn't need processing. The processing (particularly the compression) has the peculiar effect of pumping up the music and somehow adding an element of excitement to it. And I agree, it works. I guess it sells music better (grabs the ear). But to my mind it is a kind of tampering.... it messes with what the artists, producers, and musicians spend hundres of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to refine. I find it rather annoying. Our local country station, KRTY, is a pretty dawgone good station (and the only country station left in the San Francisco Bay area) but they process the HECK out of their broadcast program material. Eeek. The new digital radio broadcasters such as cable and sattelite channels don't process their sound at all (at least not that I've heard so far). It sounds much better.

Ok, I'll get off my radio compression soap box now Back to the main topic....

Let's think about Deryl Dodd's album along with Dale Watson, Deryl Singletary and the Flatlanders. The common denomonater are small labels with nationel distribution
Koch/Audium, Lucky Dog and New West.

The programers at Clear Channel can't get the mula from these folks to influence play
on their radio stations.

My local country station is under Forever broadcasting and they have played Singletary
and Gene Watson.
Is anyone else who bothers to listen to country radio hearing anything from these
sub labels?

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Bill wrote:

<SMALL>The processing (particularly the compression) has the peculiar effect of pumping up the music and somehow adding an element of excitement to it. And I agree, it works. I guess it sells music better (grabs the ear).</SMALL>

Actually, the radio processing is what scares me away from buying new country CDs. If the songs really sound like that, I don't want them, and I don't want to take the chance. In my case, compression doesn't sell.

Compression is my number one objection to the new sound. Number two is pop chord progressions. I guess that's because I'm a bit of a country purist.

Here's an interesting twist. We think that having everyone play different, unrelated lines at once is part of this modern sound. This afternoon Tom Diamont ("Panhandle Country" on KPFA) played Floyd Tillman's original recording of "Slippin' Around". The band was every bit as disassociated as any NCS I've heard. The only clue that it was an old record was that the steel player wasn't using pedals. I wonder if the musicians had heard the song more than once. Sounded like a "first take" to me.

I really thought it was a modern remake by a newgrass band until he announced it. I bet it was considered NCS in its day.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Do you have a different format for Digital Radio in the US? Unless I am very much mistaken digital radio formats are even more compressed that FM. Not only is the dynamic range reduced by a ratio of up to 5:1, but the frequency range is limited to 16kHz and then the data stream is compressed by perceptual coding algorithms which take out anything that the program decides you don't need to hear.
I know that this thread refers to Country as opposed to New Country, but my opinion is that Drum patterns are universally too busy these days as even live drummers try to keep up with sequenced patterns - most of the young drummers here play a basic hiphop double beat as their first and favoured lick, unlike the straight rock four that a drummer of the previous generation would have played.
Compression whether at source or on broadcast makes it very difficult to convey emotion in a song - and I can only guess that the "Soul Diva" warble is an attempt to substitute for this.
Whether you like it or not, Country Music, (new or old) is now the last refuge for a professional songwriter- that is why so many pop acts are adopting songs from the genre. Even if the melodies are not what they were- and that's not always true, old Country was full of very trite and boring tunes amongst the gold- they do still exist. Melody has gone from every other genre - Imagine you got a Steel guitar gig with Eminem--what on earth would you play?
Cheers
Dave

MARKETING- Most of the stuff on the radio sounds like its for fifteen year old girls.

PRODUCERS- A lot of the songs sound like they are put together by the producer and not the musicians.Insted of having a group of musicains learn a song and play it together, working out parts and playing off each other. It's cheeper(time wise) to lay down rythem tracks and scratch vocal then have the guitar, piano, steel, fiddle or what ever come in one at a time and just play over everything. Then later on the producer can digitly cut and paste the fills and solo parts he likes wherever he wants them, so nothing ever flows musicaly as if it were a real band playing.
What I can't understand is why someone would want to make an album like that.
Thats my bigest gripe about top 40 country!

The comments about compression and processing on radio air-play being a possible reason for disliking a song are interesting to me.

I've got some incredibly crappy cassette recordings of Johnny Paycheck, Ray Price and Buck Owens stuff that I listen to regularly. Sounds like about a 3rd or 4th generation cassette dub, but the songs are cool enough I don't care. To me, if the song is good, it'll shine through lousy (or strange?) audio quality. True, we all have our own idea of what 'good' is, but for me that doesn't involve the delivery medium.

That said, I've got no problem with 'modern' production. I've got new George Jones recordings with impeccable recording and production and in some cases some pretty upfront drums (particularly big snare and kick) and bass guitar. It's not really a traditional country mix, but it sounds pretty good to me.

Regarding NCS, and any other music for that matter, I either like it or I don't. On the first listen or two I seldom anaylyze a song too deeply and make any specific judgements about the instrumentation, mix or whatever. It either appeals to me or not. It might be an interesting steel lick, a really good vocal, or a great rhythm section, or something else.

On the other hand, some of the stuff that really sends me reaching for the tuner button is the 'She-daisy' type stuff that is so obviously a slant to the 'manufactured pop' side. I guess I've got some built in 'crap detector' that goes off any time a song crosses the boundary. I don't know where the boundary is exactly, and sometimes it's a little hazy, but it's definitely there. Maybe everybody has one of these, they're just calibrated a little differently?


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Home Page

b0b, I'm with you. The processing they do on broadcast music is a turn off. It hurts the music (country and other) more than it helps, to my ear. You may need to stop by your local CD retailers and use one of their demo kiosks to listen to the unprocessed music straight off the CDs, then decide if the music is right for you.

Dave, you have a point.... but I think we're talking about two meanings for the word compression. The first meaning--which b0b and I are referring--to is dynamic range compression, which is the continuous and very rapid automatic changing of the loudness of the music so that soft passages in the music are brought up to be nearly as loud as the loud passages. This literally reduces the dynamic range of music so that instead of it naturally varying over a wide range of decibels, it varies only over a narrow range of decibels... and it always stays near the loudest point, at least the way modern radio uses it. The other type of compression which I think you are referring to in digital broadcast is "data compression". Data compression is ideally not supposed to have any effect on the sound at all (in contrast to dynamic range compression), it is only supposed to reduce the amount of digital data needed to contain the sound (that is, to reduce the file size or the streaming bit rate). That makes for more music per disc or squeezes in better quality sound through a limited speed network connection. MP3 is one form of data compression for static files, and there are assorted of data compression standards for streaming audio (RealAudio, LiquidAudio, ATRAC for Minidisc, etc.). Unfortunately, when data compression is used aggressively (as in low bit rate MP3s and such), the audio IS effected, though not in the way dynamic range compression effects it. Heavy data compression results in muddy (no high end) sound and/or weird artifacts being added to the sound (warbling, splatter, echo, and so on).

As digital broadcast goes, I'll admit I've not heard much yet, but when I have heard it it's been clear that there was no dynamic range compression (and no commercials!). On the other hand, I'm sure digital broadcasters use data compression in order to conserve precious bandwidth in the cable or satellite systems. I've been toying with the idea of getting digital radio for the sake of getting clean, non-stop, uncompressed (dynamic range, that is), commercial free country radio at home or in my car. It would be cool.

[Bill Terry, I just read your post (we posted at the same time). Excellent point. Good music transcends bad media. Also, for me, 'reasonable' music can be rather badly tinged by the processing on today's FM radio.]

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<font size=-1>Bill L | My steel page | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?</font><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 22 July 2002 at 07:47 AM.]</p></FONT>

You can listen to live bands and artists, and they are an extension on what is going on in the studio.: For one thing, I agree about the drums and bass being mixed too loud for the style of music being played.

The R&R producers from LA flooded Nashville about 15-20 years ago, when they couldn't make a living at R&R anymore. They brought many musicians with them. Very few of them even had an idea of what C/W music was supposed to sound like, let alone the "feel" to play it right.

If you obseve some of the live groups, it will give you an idea of where the thinking lies behind the music. So many of them have musicians who have never heard of guys like Buddy Harmon, Jr. Huskey, Bob Moore, Ray Edington, Pig Robbins, and the folks that "made" the "Nashville Sound" as we know it.Some,not all, steel Players have done their homework, for the most part, and have listened to the older players, and learned from them. I can't say that for the majority of piano players, drummers, bass players, guitar players, etc. I've observed at the Opry, these guys walking past Buddy Harmon, Leon Rhodes, and these C/W Icons. They don't pay one bit of attention to them, don't know or even care who they are. IMHO, that is sad and plain "pathetic."

One more observation.: When a guitar, steel, fiddle, or any lead instrument plays a solo in the middle of the song, you almost never hear the melody. The older styles always had the melody going in the instrumental solos. At least people played around the melody, and you could hear it within the solo.

One other thing and I'll quit.: Why do these groups have to have upteen ELECTRIC rythym guitars banging open chords out of tune. I'm sorry, but bOb your'e absolutely right! It is pure unadulterated SHIT.

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Bill Terry wrote:

<SMALL>I guess I've got some built in 'crap detector' that goes off any time a song crosses the boundary. I don't know where the boundary is exactly, and sometimes it's a little hazy, but it's definitely there.</SMALL>

That's really what I'm trying to get at in this topic, Bill. Can we actually define that boundary, in technical, non-emotional terms? I'd like to see us try.

Bob, I agree that electric guitars playing open chords out of tune is bad, but didn't Buck Owens pioneer that sound?

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 22 July 2002 at 08:16 AM.]</p></FONT>

Bob,my question is and I totally agree with all you have said,however when,how and by whom has all this S come about? Did the expression"S HAPPENS"evolve from this metamorphosis.Seriously,when did it all start,early 80s?Was it The Outlaws,music festivals,the birth of groups,male and female.Was it later, in the 90s?Historically,give us some backround info.

Musicians have complained about the crap on the radio for as long as I can remember.

Why is the kick drum mixed so loud?
Why does the kick drum sound like the snare drum?

What also bothers me about NCS is the chord progressions. If I were to play a country gig and the band was playing some classic country, I could probably guess ALL the chord changes and maybe NEVER heard the song before in my life. Now, if you are on the bandstand and you are covering one of these NCS songs, you better know EVERY chord change because they almost make no sense!

It really frustrates me to see Country music get branded like this. Just because you wear a cowboy hat and have a steel player doesn't make you country.

Mark
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Mark Ardito on 22 July 2002 at 08:36 AM.]</p></FONT>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>
Can we actually define that boundary, in technical, non-emotional terms?
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm betting NO .... Is my boundary anything like your boundary? Not likely.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>
The "path" comes into existence only when we observe it.

--Werner Heisenberg, in uncertainty principle paper, 1927
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think he was a musician????

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Home Page

I don't like the rhythm to this so-called country. I like the way you can take a flat-top guitar to a country song, and beat straight rhythm like this (and this is where my vocabulary skills shoot through the roof): "Bom-CHING, Bom-CHING." You can't do that with much of this radio "country" you hear these days. You have to go "Boom-Poppa-CHING-Poppa," and that ain't country.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>"Boom-Poppa-CHING-Poppa
Boom-Poppa-CHING-Poppa
Boom-Poppa-CHING-Poppa
Boom-Poppa-CHING-Poppa
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<I>Hey, hey, a Workin Man,
Workin Man like Me...
I ain't never been on welfare,
That's one place I won't be...

I just keep workin...</I>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>"Boom-Poppa-CHING-Poppa
Boom-Poppa-CHING-Poppa
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As long as my old hands are fit to use...

What about OCS (Old Country S***)? Here are a few things I don’t care for about OCS:

• Hardly ANY drums at all, or just a guy using brushes on a snare drum;
• Out-of-tune instruments;
• Screechy-sounding fiddles;
• Poor singing ability;
• Songs that are barely 2:00 long;
• Not enough steel guitar (yes, it’s true, there were plenty of big hits in 60’s and 70’s without any steel at all – Ray Price, Ronnie Milsap, many others);

New country, old country – crap is crap. Crap has been around since, well, the very beginning. IMHO, there’s always been about the same percentage of crap (poor production, inferior musical abilities, silly or non-sensical lyrics, so on) as there has ever been. And there are people who buy this crap, just like there are guys who buy ugly ties. Some NCS I really like, some I really dislike, but at least there’s a good chance of hearing Paul Franklin and Brent Mason when I turn on the radio. If there’s one thing I don’t care for from the Nashville songwriting labs is the reliance on “product placement” type lyric lines (a city, state, popular retailer, whatever) designed to be the “hook”, rather than a clever phrase or idea. These are just my thoughts – I’m neither troubled by, nor offended by NCS. Now about that New Jazz S***, …

To look at things from the other side, I think something which makes for good country (at least lyrically) is the clever use of double-entendre. Here's an example from the song <u>A Little Past Little Rock</u>, sung by Lee Ann Womack:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>
Oh, but I can't turn this thing around
And nothing short of breaking down
Is gonna get me off this road I'm on
Oh, and I'm still a far cry from gone
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I see four uses of double-entendre here (sorry if I'm stating anything obvious!!):

1. "This thing" she can't turn around is both her car and the relationship;
2. "Breaking down" refers both to a car problem and crying;
3. "This road I'm on" is both the asphalt under the car and the act of leaving her man;
4. "A far cry from gone" means physically not travelled far away yet as well as being emotionally still stuck.

I'm sure double-entendre occurs a lot of places besides counrtry lyrics, but it seems to me to happen in country music more often than elsewhere, and is kind of a signature of well-done country.

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<font size=-1>Bill L | My steel page | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?</font><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 22 July 2002 at 05:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

It' not the "S" in NCS which is inappropriate--it's the "C." To paraphrase the Wendy's commercial, "Where's the 'C'?"

Specifics:

• Thinness and Brightness of steel EQ. These two often seem to be the only characteristics tolerated in NCS steel sound. Lows are removed robbing the tone of roundness, fullness, and balance. Mids are cut until there is no substance or body. What's left can be as pleasing as a skeeter in one's ear.

• Busy, chaotic arrangements.

• Thunderous mixes.

• Profoundly uncountry grooves.

• Where did your acoustic guitar go? It disappeared into the high hat--just a shimmering wash after being robbed of it's warmth by bright-happy EQing.

Do they think we're all driving around in Barney Fife's '61 Ford with an AM radio and dime-sized speakers? We can hear the treble, y'all; turn it down...please.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Evans on 22 July 2002 at 07:21 PM.]</p></FONT>

The music doesn't BREATHE. Has no soul.
Has no heart. It's a Big Mac - here's your food - pay up, eat, like it or lump it, we DID feed you, no??????????????????

Everything, with some aforementioned agreeable exceptions, sounds EXACTLY THE SAME.

Lyrics are pretentious. Sounds like people aren't REALLY into what they're talking about.

A lot of these singers do not sing with any
real conviction. They're VIDEOS only amplify
this.

All of the truly great artists still alive today, would hardly stoop to some idiotic VIDEO format to promote something which is essentially best left to the EAR.

Music is meant to be listened to. Not watched.

When you sit and watch some video of a song with all the attending 'artistic' interpretations from someone elses mind,
then you are being cheated. Cheated to be left alone to close your eyes and use your own imagery of what pops into your mind/heart
when you hear that sound. You are watching their very subjective interpretation. Who needs it?

I gotta split now.....Thanks 'Uncle b0b'.
I could go on forever with this topic.

ChipsAhoy

Larry's Shell and Cordle already said it very succinctly:

"For the steel guitars no longer cry
And you can't hear fiddles play
With drums and rock 'n' roll guitars
Mixed right up in your face"

IThe most memorable thing ever said about "hard-core" pornography in the Supreme Court was the late Justice Stewart's quote "I know it when I see it."

well, I know NCS when I hear it.

I really don't care if folks like it or play it, just don't call it Country!!!

Leave that monikker for the real country s***

maybe "Suburban Con Temporary"?? with the emphasis on Temporary.

Diane Warren should take a long vacation.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 22 July 2002 at 07:54 PM.]</p></FONT>

“It's cheeper(time wise) to lay down rythem tracks and scratch vocal then have the guitar, piano, steel, fiddle or what ever come in one at a time and just play over everything. Then later on the producer can digitly cut and paste the fills and solo parts he likes wherever he wants them, so nothing ever flows musicaly as if it were a real band playing.”

Most of the current tracking sessions I have been around are full bands playing together. Definitely some cut and paste going on, but also a lot of live interplay happening also.

As for the compression thing, yeah radio is smashing/enhancing it pretty hard, but go sit in a mastering studio sometime. The volume wars start there (well, actually at the mix desk first. 48+ tracks with 40+ compressors running, plus another one strapped across the 2 buss). Not to mention the compression that went down on the tracks. It is way smashed before it hits radio. I hear as much enhancement/widening as I do compression. As much as I like compression (I carry over 30 channels of it it my racks, not to mention every channel on high end consoles and/or DAWs has one builkt in), even I am lamenting dynamics these days.

I do like a lot about NCS, and I really agree with Randy P about not liking a lot of the older stuff, too. Crap’s crap, regardless of vintage…
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John Macy on 23 July 2002 at 08:18 AM.]</p></FONT>