The PBS Jazz Series

Steve England · Post by **Steve England** » 19 Jan 2001 11:16 am

I very much doubt if there will be any Western Swing on the show. Most jazz people look down on western swing, thinking it hillbilly redneck music. You only have to check out the rare re-releases of western swing music on jazz labels. The sleeve notes always treat western swing musicains condecendingly, and act amazed that soem of these dumb rednecks can actually play. It's something I'll never understand. Any of the Wills band, and a lot of others, had had far more jazz in them than a plane load of Glenn Millers (I kind of liked it when one guy referred to Miller as the Lawrence Welk of Jazz).

They had a feature on white swing bands last night, some of them very obscure, but no mention so far of Western Swing. Do you really think Marsalis is gonna stand for western swing being featured on HIS show?

Read an article about Ken Burns last week, it seems that he "discovered" jazz about 9 months berfore he stated on the series. Hey it could be worse, it could be Kenny G doing all the talking.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 19 Jan 2001 11:21 am

You can be sure that criticism will rain down on any production involving Wynton Marsalis, for right or for wrong.
imho, I can't criticize the series for leaving out people. It is impossible to include every nuance of an age on a T.V. documentary.
Some of the criticisms seem a bit of a stretch to me, with all due respect.
(quote):
"When discussing Ellington, no
one bothered to even mention Rex Stewart by
name, even tho they attributed his 'growling' solos to Ellingtons concept and not Rex's style."

I didn't hear much mention of Billy Strayhorn either, during the parts about Ellington. imho, he contributed 50 times more to Ellington's reputation and sound than Stewart ever did. Arguable? Maybe.
To be fair, Juan Tizol set the stage for Ellington's growling "jungle" era. That was all firmly in place before Rex entered the scene. But I like Rex too

Can't mention them all. What about Ray Nance ? Harry Carney ? The stratospheric Cat Anderson? Paul Gonsalves, who caused a riot at Newport with his tenor solos? Jimmy Hamilton (who could play Goodman and Shaw into a bag any day, imo) Barney Bigard? Another obvious and important omission: Jimmy Blanton, who completely revolutionized the acoustic bass....
Maybe because they were all just elements of Duke's main instrument: the orchestra
The biggest smile of the evening was Duke's quote "Jazz is music - swing is business".
-John [This message was edited by John Steele on 19 January 2001 at 11:23 AM.]

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 19 Jan 2001 10:45 pm

John Steele,
I only mentioned Rex as an example because of the brief clip of Rex that was shown, but I
agree about Juan and Billy S having the most important role in Ellingtons sound and not being mentioned, even tho the 'growling' trumpet solos were definately NOT the result
of the arrangements, but Rex's playing.
Still, your example is better than mine for that very reason, but it still shows a bland and cursory coverage of what was really happening.
You say "It is impossible to include every nuance of an age on a T.V. documentary".
The stuff thats being left out is not mere nuance, the people being ommitted were major contributors.
But of course if Wynton is invovled there is going to be critiscism, the man has zero creditibilty in the jazz world, and many people are extremely annoyed at his hi-profile position.. especially when there
are so many more eriudite and qualified people with the real playing credentials that could fill that slot.
Right above your post are ones regarding western swing... perhaps you feel that the whole western swing era was just another nuance, and not a significant contribution as well? I don't want to be argumentative, but you can't put on, what purports to a serious
documentary, and omit so much important info,
and expect to have it accepted.
Its still my op : the series so far has been beautifully packaged tripe, that does serious disservice the the history of jazz, another example of watering down our culture to neatly package it like a 'big mac' and send it out to TV land as the facts.. the real thing.
I would like to see the howling that would
insue on this forum if the films topic was steel guitar, and K.B. left out as many important people as he has.

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 20 Jan 2001 12:05 am

What a treat to see some actual footage of Art Tatum playing. Lord have mercy. That guy was not human. scary as hell.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 20 Jan 2001 12:14 pm

I did a jazz gig last night, and I was the only player in the quintet that wasn't groaning and gnashing their teeth about Wynton Marsalis.

I concede that there must be something terribly annoying about the guy that I missed.
As far as the western swing thing is concerned; Some people think it evolved from the swing era. I never did. I think it developed along parallel lines, but seperately.
Bill Buntin, the vibraphonist was Lionel Hampton, who was also a drummer and pianist. He led a very commercial big band until his death.
To me the most electrifying moment of the series was the unidentified flick of Willie "The Lion" Smith playing James P. Johnston's "Carolina Shout" on an old upright piano... complete with derby hat and cigar firmly clenched in his teeth. I think the drummer accompanying him might have been Jo Jones from the original Basie band. Anyone know ? Great clip.
-John [This message was edited by John Steele on 20 January 2001 at 12:15 PM.]

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 22 Jan 2001 10:03 am

John,

I understand that Strayhorn is coming up in one of the episodes this week.

HOWaiian,

W.Marsalis = a "jazz Salieri"
--that's cute!

GV

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 22 Jan 2001 1:11 pm

I'm sure Strayhorn will appear soon. Do you think Ken Burns would miss a chance to accuse all Amercians of being homophobic as well as racist?

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 22 Jan 2001 2:49 pm

hehe... I just gotta slip one more thing in here:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
(I'm not putting him down for that.. we all have to make a living.. but as he moved to POP his actually playing and inovation died accordingly)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rex Stewart's biggest hit with the Ellington Orchestra was a tune called Boy Meets Horn. It featured the half-valve trumpet technique pioneered by..........(drum roll) ......... Louis Armstrong.

But, yeah, I know watcha mean.
-John

HOWaiian · Post by **HOWaiian** » 22 Jan 2001 3:40 pm

greg-

thanx! I got a million of 'em!

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 22 Jan 2001 3:57 pm

Hey John,
If I read this right it looks like you were a bit insulted by my comments regarding WS and Louis, and confused over my comment on Rex.
I'm really sorry if you took offense, however
if you, like Wynton, think the sun rose and set with Armstrong, and nobody else made substantial contributions, fine, but your Rex comment seems a bit meaningless.

The show is hokum, Ken Burns was taken in by
the Marsalis line, and the nytimes/pbs set
is gobbling it up... just like the folks
at Lincoln Center who attend Marsalis' Jazz
concerts.. heap bogus, and hurting truly gifted musicians

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 22 Jan 2001 8:30 pm

No offense, Ron, at all! Your comments are helping me to understand some of the negative reverberations I've heard about the Lincoln Centre, etc., thank you.
Actually, I'm not that much of a Louis fan at all. I probably own more albums with Rex Stewart on 'em.
Besides, everyone knows the sun rose and set onRay Brown

-John

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 23 Jan 2001 5:17 am

Oh well at least they mentioned Lester and Coleman but could'nt they fit in 5 mins of
of Ben Webster?
For more on the Burns/Marsalis debacle :

http://www.jazzhouston.com/forum/messages.jsp?pKey=1&key=1785

Chuck S. Lettes · Post by **Chuck S. Lettes** » 23 Jan 2001 6:15 am

I am loving this series. The last installment on Swing was my favorite. Ron, I'm with you. Lester Young and Coleman Hawkins are two of the very best. I have worked up many of Lester's licks on the steel; he is my absolute favorite. I bet they might have some more on Lester, Coleman and Ben "the Brute" on some later segments (I hope). It was a treat to hear and see these great sax players. I can put up with Wynton, as long as Ken Burns has the focus on these great musicians.
Chuck

Peter Dollard · Post by **Peter Dollard** » 23 Jan 2001 5:04 pm

I saw Geoff Muldaur at the Palms in Davis last weekend and although he was delighted to see America's original art form on tv he said that Burns left out about thirty people who he thought should have been mentioned. Never the less he said the footage was awesome of Louis and some other legends. Talk about a one man band Mr. Muldaur played and sang as well as can be done with an acoustic guitar and his amazing blues voice.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 24 Jan 2001 6:35 am

Of course musicians would know the difference, but Hank Thompson's band of the 60s recorded some instrumentals like "String of Pearls", "Woodchoppers Ball", "Summit Ridge Drive", etc, that sounded so much like the "originals" that I doubt the average person would be able to distinguish the difference. The steel guitar part on some of the arrangements is the only clue, and even it sounds less like a steel at times than it does brass.

There is also an almost unknown group of African-American sacred steel guitar players centered in the Florida area. Black steel guitar players were known to be playing hawaiian lap steels in black churches in Florida as far back as the late 1930's, and now in the 90s some are beginning to use pedal steels. Interesting.

GENEJONES http://genejones.bizland.com