The Steel Guitar Forum

Bubble-Gum Country? I LIKE that one. Maybe we could get "Widenonna" together with "The Archies" and "Picketywitch" and have us a Bubble-Gum Concert!

How many times is this thread going to appear under a different name? It usually goes like this: One person notes how modern, top 40 country is a joke (which it is), Theresa defends this terrible top 40 crap that is called "country" since some of it might have a little steel playing in the radio mix, then everyone who is into real, classic country lays it on, making some very valid points. I do not know Theresa at all, but I have read enough posts to realize that she is a Nashville industry person, or at least has friends and family that make their liveing off of the terrible music that Nashville spoon feeds to the lemmings. There is nothing that anyone could every say to make this person realize that modern top 40 country is a bad thing. This is just my observation, and I am in no way trying to make a personal attack to Theresa. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Steve B on 15 April 2000 at 07:44 AM.]</p></FONT>

With kiddie-country being all the rage, anybody care to hazard a guess how long it will be before we have Bazooka bubble gum, Toys R Us and Clearasil sponsoring the Opry? By the way, while channel surfing the other night, I went by the CMT (Country My Tu$h) channel. A commercial was on. Guess what, they were offering me and the rest of us country music lovers a collection of our favorite RAP tunes!! Now, somebody wanta tell me to which age group this Hot New Country is being marketed? Hmmm? Haven't seen too many Polident commercials on CMT.

Mark

Dis kiss......dis kiss.....Jimmy's got a girl friend......Jimmy's got a girl friend...... thought I'd do a little medley for you folks today.

me to which age group this Hot New Country is being marketed? HMMMMM? Don't recall seeing a Polident commercial on CMT.

Yeah!!!!!! What Steve B said.

Steve,
Theresa is an insider. Her husband Gregg played guitar on the last No.1's Merle Haggard had and all of Emmon's swing records. She owns a traditional record collection that would make your mouth water. She's open minded to change and has a great attitude towards all forms of music and She consistantly posts positive words about both styles, old and new. And no you could never close here mind to any form of music. From this musicians standpoint, the day any serious student of music dismisses any form of music he narrows his future along with his learning ability. You can't learn from something you're not willing to listen openly to.
Country music has had over a decade of pop influenced music. This has never happenened in Country Music's history. In the past they have always had to go back to the roots after a few years. The only artists that are still selling well today in this decade are the pop country stars like Martina, Lonestar, Faith and McGraw.
There have been several meetings like the one Johnny referred to, because the entire industry is concerned that traditional isn't selling, period. They want to fix that if possible and do not want to see it die. No matter how much labels spend to promote it, radio will not embrace it and nobody can figure out how to fix it, which is the problem.
I have played on at least 50 straight ahead new traditionalist artists CD's throughout the 90's that either flopped or got dropped from the labels before release over this past decade. The last time a traditionalist broke through to superstar fame was in the late 80's. Strait, Jackson, are the only ones left that are able to hold fairly close to tradition and still retain radio play. Diffie, Loveless, Byrd, Travis, Reba, Gill, and the others had to stretch their music into a more pop sound to keep radio's attention.
I love playing all forms of music. I don't see the new music as a terrible thing. The new music has more rhythm variations & more complex chord progressions which is changing the perception of steel in the pop world which is what I think we need.
Paul

My own personal observation on all the various threads that have been on this forum about "country versus pop" or variations of that same theme.

Most do not say music other than "traditional country music" is bad. Just that the "commerical" music that is presented as country on most radio stations is now mostly pop/rock (and not rap being presented too). Traditional country is going the way of Bluegrass. An occasional "bone" is tossed to the traditionalists but that's about all.

Other than an occasional playing of Foggy Mountain Breakdown there's hardly any Bluegrass played on "today's radio". Many of us traditionalists feel the same thing is happening to country.

The industry cries that traditional country does not sell but if they do not produce the product how can it sell?? Again, there's an occasional "hardcore" country CD but it seems if the CD doesn't go platinum in two weeks it's considered a failure.

One last thing, I think it's great that the studio musicians have the opportunity to expand their horizons, if they want to, and that there are musicians that can produce high quality music and go beyond traditional country. It expands the opportunities for all of us.

The fact is, radio controls the recording industry at the moment. Like it or not, this is a fact, and I have known from the minute Congress relaxed the FCC regulations on the number of stations controlled by a single corporation what this would do to the music industry (and this is not just a problem with country music).

You can sit around all day and try to decide what is the definition of country, but at the end of the day, the number of people listening to the station, and the advertising revenues that it generates are all that matter to the owners.

Jack mentioned that there is not being enough traditional artists being released. I think Paul pretty well addressed that in the 50 or so traditional records that he played on that flopped or got dropped.

Johnny is right when he said "It seems to me the smart thing would be to go for the smaller, more loyal market and have the longevity". But that goes right back to the radio thing, where ONLY ratings and numbers matter.

I am excited about the possibilites of broader bandwidth internet access, and online radio, along with the satellite "on-demand" radio potential. This will allow for tighter definitions of the program content, and a "traditional only" format might exist. The downside to this is the competition will be fierce, and even just finding what you are looking for will be some work. A traditional format may find some listenership, but it will be small, and whether or not it will have enough marketing power to launch new artists and sell enough product to sustain new growth will have to be seen.

As for my take on country, I also have one of those traditional record collections that would make your mouth water, and I love and respect it deeply. However, I love BarBQue, too, but I can't eat it three meals a day. I like a lot of what's on new radio these days, and agree with Paul about the rythmnic and chordal possibilites. I like the sonics and the songs, for the most part. And I like that it reaches a lot of people. I, for one, came to love and respect traditional country via being brought into the genre by more pop and rock influenced country years ago. So I always enjoy Theresa's posts and am usually in agreement. There was an oldies rock station around with the moniker "Where Tomorrow Never Comes", sometimes it seems like what this section of the forum should be called.

I also gauge a lot by watching my ten year old daughter, who, like it or not, is part of the generation coming that may make or break country music. She likes traditional country, especially the modern versions of it like George, Alan and the like. But she flees the hardcore older country music and is pretty horrified by the GOO for the most part, but she does hit the radio button for HNC much more often than not. And that is coming from someone who has had a good exposure to quality country music, not someone stumbling into it. None of her friends like it at all. She can't take a steady diet of any one thing either.

I don't have any answers. I would like to see country radio survive, and somehow be faithful to it's roots, while at the same time, grow with the times and it's listeners. As more pop listeners dicover the format, it will help introduce the steel guitar and keep it growing, too.

PS--Mark F. If you were/are a working musician, supporting yourself and your family, and could turn down the Judd's gig on principles over income, more power to you. I think you are in a tiny minority, though. I thing Sonny played some awesome parts on those records, and to play them would be a priviledge, not to mention being a good gig for a player.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John Macy on 16 April 2000 at 09:26 AM.]</p></FONT>

I do not come on the forum every day. I only have time to come on every now and then to see what's new. New, being the key word. I find it interesting to see that the same topic under a different title is always here. I wonder how many different ways new country can be slammed? I grew up listening to all sorts of music in my house. My Dad always taught me to respect all forms of music including traditional country. He also taught me to respect music that I didn't really like as a kid, things like jazz fusion. I think that this has been the one thing that has helped my career more than anything else. I worked for a music publishing company here in Nashville, where I got cuts on artists like Faith Hill as well as George Strait. I love all forms of music and all forms of country music. I know that steel does more than chimes and simple slides in the current country music. The steel is being used in ways that has made it understandable to people who never liked or knew the instrument. What I love about it, is that it not only works in this more pop music, but it adds so much of a new sound to it. The steel is not only used as a background instrument, but is a primary lead instrument in much of it. Why does steel have to be so limited? And, why do country artists have to be so limited. In a perfect world, I think there should be traditional country music and bluegrass, as well as new country music on the radio. I disagree with anyone who says that there are no traditional artists being produced in Nashville. It just simply does not sell. This is why artists who were more traditional like Lee Ann Womack are releasing new material that is more pop. I also find it interesting that George Jones was on the tip sheet that goes out to all publishers, as looking for pop classics. Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that George is looking to do pop classics as well as country. He is an incredible singer with more versatility to be shown. However, there are new traditional artists being thrown into the mix. There is a new female artist named Coley McCabe who will be coming out later this year, I believe on RCA. She has a fabulous traditional country voice. And, there are many more. You just have to look a little harder. You can't depend on radio to introduce you to new traditional artists. You have to search them out. Radio will only play what their listeners want to hear. And, unfortunately for traditional country fans right now, it tends to be new country. Sorry for rambling.

Darrell

John M.
Now let me see if I have this straight. So because Sonny Garrish played some "awesome parts" on some Judds' records, I'm supposed to wax euphoric at the very thought of my sharing the stage with the aforementioned Judds and playing the licks that Sonny played? Hmmm, I'll have to give that one some thought.

Mark

P.S.
And for the record, Sonny is one of my favorite players.

Ain't gonna sing today, gonna give the voice a rest.

Paul's comments on "traditional has to stretch to get airplay is right on target. Traditional straight country can't get airplay and that is what's limiting real Country music to expand. It's simple ,No play,no hear,no buy. I'm still not buying what I don't enjoy because radios won't play what I do. Heck I love Jazz,Blues,I love good music of all kinds.And there is really only two kinds. "good or bad" . Nashville has all but ended releasing Country Music the way Country music fans of years still love. Instead they will use 4-5 hot selling Artist to represent itself. Clubs have closed in the thousands and kareoke out numbers live entertainment.That means a lot of musicians that could work for a living can't.And would rather "Hobby" than be insulted. And as in Nashville when a club hires live entertainment you will find a tip jar to make up the differece in pay. A musician should have that desire to be the best he can,create and expand.Now here is what scares me. In all the live performances of the newer artist ,the Steel is mixed low and drowned out. How long before the Lee Greenwood sydrome returns ,remember that? Pedal Steel was replaced by Keyboard. When Country Music Dies it will take a lot of Steel Guitar work with it.Not all but a great percentage of the non established players. And now the Pedal steel is more versitle than it ever was.technology,superior products and great players to learn from,For a future I hope. Either way Country music was a great living for me, I am forever greatful. This is only my thoughts and not directed to anyone .

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CJC


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Joe Casey on 18 April 2000 at 08:33 PM.]</p></FONT>

Been listning to WSMAM on my computer,I really like what I'm hearing.They really trow us old dogs a bone quite often.When they play "This Kiss" or any other screaming mimi song ,wheather it be male or female,I simply walk away or hit the volume control.Thank you WSMAM for not forgetting us old dogs.I know if I need to hear "This Kiss" bad enough I'll call you mark so we can do some harmony work on the phone.In fact I feel a song coming on ,as soon as you get off line we can sing it together.Ray

I'll have to say I'm with Theresa on this, and most of everything else she's posted on the forum. Despite her music industry connections, perhaps we should regard her as an unbiased party because of the fact she isn't a steel player...
Joe, while I share your love for traditional country music, I have to disagree with you when you say that nobody buys traditional country because of minimal airplay. I think you've got the cart before the horse. Nobody buys traditional country, because they don't like it. Period. And if few people like it, why the heck would they play it on the radio?
Sure, I like it. You like it. Together we're a minority of two.
Until it's "fashionable" to listen to real country again, I'd save my breath to cool my coffee.
I listened to a reissue of Neil Young's "Harvest" album last night. I'd forgotten all the nice steel parts by Ben Keith on there.
And whoever said the Country Musicians aren't getting the playing jobs these days, well, I have news for you. Comment like that would put a roomful of blues/jazz/classical/rock musicians right on the floor laughing. It's called a Niche Market, and the jazz players in particular have been living with it for years (and developing further) despite the fact that their preferred style of music hasn't been the popular music of the day for almost 50 years.
-John

In the real World John there are a lot of people who love country and can't get it.Take a trip to nashville bring your axe ,you will find plenty of jobs.(yep yep bring Tip Jar).... All that's needed to put the crap out they do in Nashville is 5 phone numbers. Labels don't keep an Artist new or old Country if one doesn't high chart quickly...No matter who he or she is.....Lot of players after a while feel they are too good for Country.... Country isn't cool unless your with the right people... Maybe John it's a good thing to put the cart before the horse. That way we are not behind a HorsesA$$.

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CJC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>
there are a lot of people who love country and can't get it.
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. You're right. Unfortunately, the majority of those people haven't been to a live show since Kennedy was the President, and the last recording they bought was a 8-track. (and, no, I'm not talking about the present company)
I think we agree on the subject of musical taste, Joe, but we've both got to admit that money makes the world go 'round.
-John

This topic has been beat to death, so I will keep it short. I am going to go out on a limb here by saying that I like the old stuff, but the type of playing that gets to me, and sends chills up and down my spine is Pauls playing on alot of the newer pop-country stuff. I just got a copy of a Christmas album that the band I play for is releasing this year and Paul played some things on there that blew me away. Just about the time I start feeling like I am almost getting the instrument, Paul plays something that opens all sorts of new doors for me as a player. The new music inspires me to practice more and to want to learn more than the older stuff does. I for one welcome the new stuff.

Jeremy

Yeah John I guess your right,things change and a lot of people refuse to accept it. And Jeremy It's the new releases Like AJ's and some newer stuff that keeps it going.Where's Mark Chestnut,David Ball,wouldn't they fit on the opry? O well . Back to Bethovens 5th I mean Jack Daniels 5th ah hell where's my new Shania CD?After the Jack Daniels I like anything. Now I hope no one spoils my golf.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Joe Casey on 19 April 2000 at 09:32 AM.]</p></FONT>

I notice we are regressing back to "what Paul does". What Paul or Bruce or Sonny or Brent or .... do obviously has an impact on what we do to recreate what they did on a session. However it has no bearing on the industry. They are providing what the people who produce the product want and if they want a hardcore country sound they provide it, if they want a western swing sound they provide it, if they want a rock sound they provide it, etc...

John I was talking about how it "was" from the middle 50's to middle 70's And not jazz/blues/rock or classical. This thread is listed as only "Country Music". Ray

Jack,

I was not trying to get on a Paul did this kind of kick, I was just saying that the new music allows session guys to venture into uncharted territories. My favorite playing is on some of the new music because it is stuff that has never been done before. It is the type of playing that if I were in a session and someone pulled out one of these songs I would have a ball trying to invent some new and original licks (for lack of a better word) while still being tastefull. That is what gets me going.

Jeremy

Jeremy,Your talking about what musicians like,and like to play. It's impressive at steel shows and jams. Most of the listening audience that spend to hear their music could care less who is on the recording other than the Artist.They want to sing the words,see the artist perform.What you and I like as musicians only matters if we are in the purchasing majority, we look beyond the Artist. My house is full of all the great pickers tapes and cd's. New or old they should both be allowed to be heard. Oldies Rock is on 24 hrs. a day. Why not Pure country? Along with the Newer stuff. It's a never ending story.

I just wonder what our older generation thought when the "Country Music" of the 30's and 40's evolved into the 4/4 country we all love.

I feel sure they felt just as we do today, however they did not have this medium to express theirselves.

What about when the Opry got it's first electric instrument or drums. I am sure there was an uproar.

Let's quit beating this to death and get down to some picking, or better yet, get you a young student and start teaching them to play this instrument instead of putting down todays players.

Bill Ferguson

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"Stop worrying about what makes a steel work and concentrate on how YOU make it sound"

Bill it's not the Musicians who are being put down, It's the executives in control who are my target, And from what I see on the rest of the post.

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CJC

John Steele wrote:

"Nobody buys traditional country, because they don't like it. Period. And if few people like it, why the heck would they play it on the radio?"

Probably the truest most correct statement ever posted on this forum on any subject! Folks when you are blaming the producers, top management, or others "behind" the scenes, you are simply blaming the wrong entity. The kids and new adults do NOT like country music. They just don't. Oh a few straglers here or there. But 99% do NOT like it. And it is worse than that, their oft' comments are, "I hate traditional country music". So they do NOT buy it, nor listen to it.

If I were responsible for pleasing stock holders of a CD/tape company, I would be NO different than those that now refuse to even listen to "us" who love country music.

The second thing I want to say, is this. Why is it that every time one refers to the stuff they call "country music" as being bad, someone always equates it as a slam against Paul Franklin or Bruce Bouton, etc?

This is ridiculous. NO one in their right mind would ever slam PF. EVER! Or Bruce, or Sonny, or Dan Dugmore. PF is one of the greatest steel guitarists who ever lived. And the others mentioned can hold their own against any steel player (save BE), who ever played.

I often stomach some of today's "whatever kind of music it is", JUST to hear PF's outstanding playing (and others of course). I am sure that is the case for most of the posters who justifyably object to the hollering, screaming singers posing as country today.

I love everything PF ever did. He is an incredibly fantastic player. So please, when someone slams today's so-called country music, it is NOT a slam against PF. It is against the Singer!!!! And the writers of whatever it is.

In fact it is often the steel players licks that make it palatible to those of us who otherwise dislike the song.

I have no problem with the singers singing whatever they wish. I have no problem with producers and record companies making whatever kind of music they want to. My ONLY problem is what they call it. It is clearly NOT country. So why persist in hating something and at the same time, calling it that? That is my only beef.

And those of us that like Ray Price, ALSO liked the stuff BEFORE Ray Price. Country is not all 4/4 shuffle. My first love was Roy Acuff, Bill Monroe, the Bails Brothers, etc. at the age of 5, my daddy and I would listen to the Grand Ole Opry and they were among my first loves. Then came Hank Williams, and Ernest Tubb and all the myriad of singers billed as "Hillbilly" later changed to "country" (to appease the country music haters). Never objected to any of it, til the present rock and roll disguised as "country" came along. I did not like some of of the "hillbilly/country music back then of course.

But never objected to the industry at large as I and many of the posters do now. It is NOT an age problem. That is also ridiculous. It is simply a form of music that many of us dislike just as much as most hate traditional country music. And by the way, they hated it back in the 30's and 40's. I was ridiculed for loving "hillbilly music" in the 30', 40's and 50's. Thank God there was some one could listen to then. There sure isn't today!

Finally John, you said that she was unbiased. Please!!

God bless you all,

carl

What most people forget, is that pop is short for popular. So if you want to please the audience that is in front of you, you have to play what is popular.Having said all that, I'm still one of the biggest George Jones fans in the world and I don't care what they call his music.
All the best,-Andy

I nominate Carl Dixon as spokesman for all us Country Music lovers.He seems to say what we all try to say,only better.God bless you Carl.

Ray