Starting on Lap Steel. Finger Problems.

[Bill McCloskey]

What I am talking about are: do the notes starting to buzz as you get closer to the nut. That would indicate the nut is not gauged properly for your strings. And no, the guitar shouldn't be too slack. This is a good resource to pick the proper string gauges for the proper tension based on your scale length: https://tension.stringjoy.com/

[Ted Duncan]

What I am talking about are: do the notes starting to buzz as you get closer to the nut. That would indicate the nut is not gauged properly for your strings. And no, the guitar shouldn't be too slack. This is a good resource to pick the proper string gauges for the proper tension based on your scale length: https://tension.stringjoy.com/

Fred and Bill ... I truly appreciate the help and information.

Bill, I will check what you are saying about buzzing close to the nut.

As I mentioned I am definitely going to check the strings that are on this guitar ... and look into Stringjoy to learn what is proper based on scale length. I have read on this forum about Stringjoy in other posts.

Thanks again.

[Fred Treece]

Is it a faux-bone nut, or metal? If it’s a polymer and the grooves were cut sloppy and the string heights don’t match, you can use this stuff to even things up. I call it nut floss. Obviously I am not a marketing guy.

https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-a ... sive-cord/

[Ted Duncan]

Is it a faux-bone nut, or metal? If it’s a polymer and the grooves were cut sloppy and the string heights don’t match, you can use this stuff to even things up.

The nut and bridge are both metal.

I call it nut floss. Obviously I am not a marketing guy.

https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-a ... sive-cord/

I know what you mean. A while back I came across "an adult beverage" that I really enjoyed and thought it was a great summer cooler when you came in from mowing the lawn or cleaning the panties out of the glove box of your F150 so your wife don't find them. It's called Woodchuck Cider and is sold in long-neck glass bottles.

I put the two together came came up with what I thought was the perfect advertising slogan:

WRAP YER HAND AROUND THE NECK OF A WOODCHUCK. ... and sent it off to the bottler.

I guess they musta lost my email address because I haven't heard back from them and its going on 5 years.

[Fred Treece]

Ha, yeah. Good thing we didn’t quit our day jobs. With that slogan nowadays you’d have to say “No woodchucks were harmed in the making of this product” somewhere on the label.

The nut floss will probably work on metal too, with a bit more elbow grease. I think the .015 I got from Stew Mac is a 50’ roll, so just under a lifetime supply…

You could also take it to a guitar shop and have the repairman nut file the slots. Probably a $25 job. Any more than that, buy the nut file off him.

[Ted Duncan]

Just so's everybody knows ... I wasn't implying that someone should CHOKE the woodchuck. Just hold him by the neck until he starts looking a little uncomfortable.

For those wondering, the SX has a 22 3/4 inch scale length.

So I went on over to Stringjoy, poked in my specifics and got their recommend. I then broke out my Moore and Wright 0 - 1 inch and measured the strings SX put on the Lap Steel. Next I dug out the 2 sets of South Bound C-6 Lap Steel Strings I bought for my build and to confuse the matter further, I looked up GHS Custom, GHS Hawaiian and Scotty's C-6 Lap Steel Strings. This here's what I got:

StringJoy.............. 48 36 26 17 13 10

SX......................... 51 36 27 24 17 12

SouthBound........ 34 30 24 20 17 14

GHS Custom....... 36 30 24 22 18 15

GHS Hawaiian.... 36 30 26 22 17 15

Scottys................. 36 30 24 22 18 15

I've never dealt with anything like this before and don't know how much impact a thou or 3 would have on the tension or sound of a string. I really am a little lost here.


anyoldways, I dragged my old Guild 6 string acoustic over and did a rough side by side string tension check, and yeah, the strings on the acoustic are a lot tighter than on the lap steel, but I don't know how valid the test is given the difference in scale length (25 5/8 vs 22 3/4).

The lap steel seems to be holding a tune better ... but the strings still are VERY sloppy and it still sounds like an old 78 rpm record running out of winds on the Victrola. I do have to press down pretty far to get all of the strings to sound right.

Apart from taking a nap, I'm gonna have to think on what to do next.

My Choices seem to be:

1. Just live with it and go practice my lessons.

2. Make up a set of strings matching the String Joy specs

3. Throw on the set of SouthBounds

FWIW, I restore Banjos, Banjolins and build Canjos. I have a fairly large box of sets of strings, so making up a set won't be hard.

I also own a nut file ... but I've hidden it until I make this thing sound a LOT better.

[Bill McCloskey]

I'm gonna have to think on what to do next.

Everyone here knows what you need to do next. Buy a decent lap steel and stop mucking about. Or quit. Those are the usual options open to beginners who buy SX or other chinese crapola. If you like it enough, you will buy a better steel. If it really doesn't grab you, you'll stop playing because the experience sucks on an SX.

[Ted Duncan]

I'm gonna have to think on what to do next.

Everyone here knows what you need to do next. Buy a decent lap steel and stop mucking about. Or quit. Those are the usual options open to beginners who buy SX or other chinese crapola. If you like it enough, you will buy a better steel. If it really doesn't grab you, you'll stop playing because the experience sucks on an SX.

Well Bill ol' buddy ... if there was any quit in me, I never would have been able to get any pretty girls to mess with me, so quittin' just ain't an option.

Also, there's guys out there who make lapsteels out of old fir tubafours and make them sound pretty good. Before I bought this thing I listened to every vid I could find ... and NONE of the cheap lap steels sound like this one ... NONE!

As example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3IXzT_up4k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpkJPZTlxvo&t=482s


There has to be something wrong ... something I'm missing. I have never played anything like this before and have no idea what to expect ... might be something there.


If "everybody here knows what I should do next" just spend more money... No sense making a fool of myself. I'll just stop posting and figure this out on my own.


Thanks for the help ...

[Bill McCloskey]

No dont stop posting. But it is just the reality. There is more to playability on a lap steel then you can imagine unless you have played a lot of them . My advise is based on my experiences personally. I bought a cheapo lap steel. I almost quit. I know first hand. It is not a matter of throwing money at it . It is about having proper tools that make playing a great experience. Dont be put off from posting by what ever i or anyone else says. It is a journey of self discovery.

[Fred Treece]

First of all, Troy is a pretty good player.

Secondly, I don’t know what amp he is playing through or what his settings are but we all know that good tone is in the guitar pickup, the amp, any outboard effects, and the player’s hands. He clearly knows his gear.

Thirdly, he said he is not crazy about that nut on the SX. He didn’t elaborate, but he mentioned possibly swapping it out. So you have that in common.

I think it’s okay to bang away on an inexpensive instrument to see if you fall for playing it in spite of its shortcomings. Especially if a cheap and relatively easy upgrade/repair/adjustment can improve your learning experience. You won’t sound like Troy Brenningmyer for a while, but you can still have fun working your way up.

[Bill Groner]

Ted, most of all don't get discouraged. I'm sure it is only something minor with your lapsteel. I bought a Rogue on sale for $69 with legs and a gig bag. I eventually sold it, but there nothing wrong with. It was a real nice little guitar for starting out and not breaking the bank. I liked it so much I scratch built one with a 22.5" scale length when my playing improved. We all have to start somewhere and you made a decent choice. Once you figure out what is wrong, I'm sure you will be on your way!

[John Harmon]

Not a luthier or a very good player, but I do have an SX. Mine has the problem of the strings not aligning with the pole pieces on the pick up. The top string doesn't play well with the others, really unbalanced. Most likely could be fixed but I play the Epiphone instead. John

[Ted Duncan]

Hey SX owners, I figured it out, and its not that they are cheap Chinese garbage.

A couple days ago, I loosened the strings to cut them off and replace them ... and I just happened to see that the bridge was a bit loose.

I pulled out the screws, put a sliver of wood (less than a toothpick) into each hole, and tightened them down, tuned it up and gave it a try. It sounded GREAT, even with the factory supplied strings.

All these days later and I've checked with my tuner ... no matter how poorly I play, it hasn't lost a cent on any string and it still sounds terrific. The factory strings are nice and tight and now I can almost float the tone bar on the strings and it doesn't go all wonky.

It's going to be at least a couple weeks before I can play anything like "music" but that's me. It like to give me a stroke, but there is NO problem with this guitar.

The reverb in my old Polytone mini-brute makes it sound like old Hawaii and I'm as happy as a clam. This will be a fine lap steel for me to learn on.


Just thought I'd let folks who own or are considering an SX know it's not a cheap piece of crap.

T.

[Bill McCloskey]

A couple days ago, I loosened the strings to cut them off and replace them ... and I just happened to see that the bridge was a bit loose.

I pulled out the screws, put a sliver of wood (less than a toothpick) into each hole, and tightened them down, tuned it up and gave it a try.

....but they aren't chinese garbage.

[Fred Treece]

Fantastic, Ted! That’s great that you figured it out and got it working right. Now go have some fun.

[Ted Duncan]

Fantastic, Ted! That’s great that you figured it out and got it working right. Now go have some fun.

Thanks for the encouragements, Fred! The SX really does sound very good. Me on the other hand , but I know I can get it. The hard part right now is getting used to these dang finger picks. I avoided the things since the mid-1960's ... but it looks like they are really necessary for the lap steel. I can do it with just my finger tips, but it just doesn't sound near as good as it does with the picks.

FWIW, I'm finding it necessary to go through The GeorgeBoards 101 (part 1 & 2) and the Picking Techniques videos to get the basics of fingers, palm and slide down before I start into Dewitt's book. The drills George teaches are very helpful in this regard.

For me, playing lap steel and picking guitar are similar ... yet very different and I am finding I have to make some adjustments. All I have to do is learn and practice the differences until I don't think about them. I don't think it will take very long.

I am playing the SX through my old Minibrute II and the reverb really makes it sound terrific.

My wife tells me she can almost see the swaying palm trees and hula girls.

[Ted Duncan]

Hey Ted, I have an SX, and I like it, a lot! I also built my own lap steel and had fun doing it. My SX is C6 tuning and my DIY steel which you can see at https://youtu.be/_4wT47G_hi0 is Open D tuning. I'm sure you'll figure it all out with the great guys on this forum!

What a beautiful lap steel. I love the grain ... and the bit of a knot is beautiful. Also, I think the frets add a LOT to all that wood, the perfect accent to all that beautiful wood.

I started using Tru-Oil more than 15 years ago on a couple rifle stocks ... and then used it on a couple old mandolins I rebuilt/restored. I find that its easy and and as close to fool-proof to apply as anything can be. It gives a hard and durable finish that stands up to the use a field gun gets, so I figure it will probably last forever on a musical instrument.

I am building from the same book, but I designed my own guitar. I really like the look of the Airlines and the Gretsch Jet Airliner.

Since you are tuning your home-built in Open D, had you given an thought to putting palm benders on it?


I will probably be doing the same with my SX and homebuilt.

Could you please tell me the title of the first tune on that Video? I'd like to add it to my list of Tunes to Learn when I get rolling.

[Fred Treece]

Hey Ted, I have an SX, and I like it, a lot! I also built my own lap steel and had fun doing it. My SX is C6 tuning and my DIY steel which you can see at https://youtu.be/_4wT47G_hi0 is Open D tuning. I'm sure you'll figure it all out with the great guys on this forum!

That is a beauty for sure. Love the maple and clear finish!

Just one question, and it’s not just about your guitar, but other fretted lap steels we see - why use actual metal frets? I can see cutting the slots, but wouldn’t a filler do the job easier and just as well? Is it a cosmetic thing, and you just like the way it looks?

[Ted Duncan]

From the start of this thread, I kind of left some stuff out, mostly because I didn't want to think about it. I guess I'm only posting to let some of this out. Who knows, maybe somebody will get something out of it ... like I had hoped with the rest of this thread.

I went to the Doctor today.


Two of the reasons I got interested in lap steel A. As happens to everyone from time to time, everything I was playing on guitar all sounded the same to me and 2 ... I have been a finger-picker since 1964 and I HATE playing with a pick. Unfortunately, a while back the fingers on my right hand stopped bending like they should. I hoped that my index and middle finger would bend enough so I could play lap steel ... but no such luck. Failing at that, I was hoping that I had something called "trigger finger"... because it wasn't arthritis and seemed the easiest thing to fix among all the choices. I went to the doctor today and he tells me I have something called "swan's neck deformity" which is a bit more complicated.

Trigger finger has to do with the tendons in the palm side of the hand and the "pulleys" the tendons go through. This stuff controls pulling the fingers into the palm. The fix ... just open up the offending pulley (which looks like a small tube), heal, and get back to making country music.

This Swan Neck thing has to do with the tendons on the back of the hand which extend or pull the fingers up out of the palm. These tendons appear to ride in grooves in the knuckles. I guess you could say my grooves have worn down to the point that the tendons slip out of them, resulting in clicking and poping noises and locking the fingers. Some sort of gout, rheumatoid arthritis, lime disease and other stuff causes this, and I have to do some tests to find out which one. Somehow it makes a difference.

I also have to wear a cast for the next 6 weeks and do some PT to see what that MIGHT do. As an aside, my Dad grew up on a chicken farm. He told me that "mites" are found on a chickens rear-end, but I digress.

The Doc says I might need surgeries on at least 2 fingers, which they can't do at the same time. He is a man of few words. I asked him if this will fix my fingers so I can play again and he said ..."maybe".

As a life long auto mechanic, machinist ... and guitar banger, along with my eyes and my wife, I have always considered my hands the finest gifts God could give anyone.

I'm expecting to be a little busy this September and October but just not playing lap steel.

[Ted Duncan]

And more:

Some of my earliest memories are of real bad ear aches. In the 1950's there were 7 of us and we were very poor. There was no health care. I could never hear very well, but when the draft came around in 1969 ... I told them about my ears, but they wouldn't HEAR it. I enlisted in 1970.

When I got out, I got a decent job and got health care. From about age 26 or so to about 35 I had 5 ear surgeries on my left ear, the last being done about 35 years ago.

The problem is that I get ear infections which soak into the spongy bone around the inside of the ear and this creates polyps and something called cholesteatoma which is a big fatty tumor thing which grows and creates a home for more infection. Cholesteatoma is a lot like an iceberg ... What you can see on the surface is a lot smaller than what is in the bone.

I started having earaches a couple months back. Fortunately, I had always wanted to see down into the barrels of the rifles I collect AND down into the inside of the ear that gave me so much trouble, so a while back I bought a bore scope which would allow me to do both. AND take pictures. Which I won't post.

Last week I took my photos and my ear to the doc ... and kicked things around a little. Next week I have to go get a cat scan to see how deep it goes into the bone. After that I will be having another ear surgery.

The problem is ... while the Doc was doing surgery No.5 ... he saw that the bones of my middle ear had been eroded until just a stump of one of them remained. The ear drum was pretty much gone. So he crafted a bit of a flap of skin and grafted it in, mostly to cover the hole.

And then we got a miracle. When I healed, we found I could HEAR. The auditory nevrve was still good after all those years. Now it wasn't perfect ... there were some pitches I couldn't hear ... but damn ... it was good enough for country music!!!!! And its been pretty good, until now.

It looks like the surgery will be pretty extensive ... there is a lot that will have to come out.

The worse part is the doc can't tell me how much hearing will remain.

I'm not looking for anything ... Insurance should cover everything but the co-pay. I've been through it 5 times before.

I was kind of hoping I wouldn't have to do it again ... or lose the hearing.

I'm just typing to let it out.

[Bill Groner]

Wishing you the best Ted on both of your issues. Praying you will have a full recovery on both.

[Ted Duncan]

Wishing you the best Ted on both of your issues. Praying you will have a full recovery on both.

Well thank you, Bill. I wasn't complaining ... I know a lot of folks who have it a LOT worse. I guess I'm just a little disappointed and getting a little tired is all.

Thankfully, there is a third thing which I am not going to talk about. It's not REAL serious, but is a little bit serious and it has to get taken care of before everything else.

I say thankfully because some folks say these things usually come in threes, so I should be good to go from here on out.

T.

[Ted Duncan]

I see that there are folks reading this thread. With the idea that somebody might find some of this finger stuff useful, I'm going to keep posting up dates.

If I'm just embarrassing myself, please let me know and I'll stop.


So I have been trying to learn more about this thing going on with my hand.





The photo shows what is going on with my fingers. All of the fingers on my right (picking) hand do this but this is the best picture I could get using my left hand. The two bends are why they call it "swan neck deformity". When I hold my hand flat with fingers straight out, the middle joint is bent. I would say it's "over center" or past the centerline. And it locks there. This hyperextension seems to be caused by an imbalance of forces of the tendons which control the movement of the fingers. But the fingers also lock in places as I bend them into my palm, as in making a fist. They release with a jump and make a pop or snapping sound. There is no pain at all, but if I keep doing it, like trying to pick a measure, the fingers start to kind of feel tired or "thick" somehow.

This: http://centralcoastortho.com/patient-ed ... deformity/ has a pretty good description of what is going on.

I got the results of the blood tests back. The test indicates that, sometime in my life, I may have had Lime Disease, because there are antibodies for it in the blood.

The test is also positive for some "nuclear" something or other which I haven't found on the web yet.

Fortunately, the tests indicated that I do not have rheumatoid arthritis.

I also do not yet understand the connection between something like Lime Disease and what is going on with my fingers. I will keep reading.

I have finished 1 week of 6 in this cast and doing the prescribed exercise. I don't see any change at all. I go back to the Doc 9 October.

Fortunately, the cast is fairly east to remove. I would think of it as more of a brace to immobilize the hand and fingers.

[Ted Duncan]

MEDICAL UPDATE:

The cardiologist was able to "fix" one of the problems and the ear specialist was able to fix another. But the orthopedist is another story.

Today the splint came off my hand and the exercises are done ... no improvement in the fingers from either. Also the blood tests the Doc ordered came back.

2 of the blood tests came back "out of range". Unknown to me and completely against my will, it turns out I have an "autoimmune condition" of some type and I have had Lyme disease sometime in the past. Another of the blood tests tells the orthopedist that I do NOT have rheumatoid arthritis. Unfortunately, the autoimmune thing as well as the lymes can "degrade" tendons ... like what is going on in my hands.

This is where the orthopedist now stops doing anything ... and sends me off to a rheumatologist for his testing and input. The orthopedist also tells me that this rheumatologist will determine if what is going on can be stabilized or not. If it can be stabilized ... I *might* be a candidate for surgery. If not ... well, it is what it is.

While I was in the splint ... I did a bunch of looking around on the internet to see what I might be able to do to help me play guitar.

In my searching, I found this thing:








It look to me like this thing prevents the fingers from going fully extended, or a place where the joints can lock. MAYBE ... this will allow me to fingerpick the guitar and lap steel. They don't cost much. I think its at least worth a try ... at least until I find out what the rheumatologist tells me.

Has anybody here ever dealt with any of this stuff? I'd sure like to hear from you.

T.