Page 2 of 2
Posted: 21 Jan 2023 10:27 am
by Roger Rettig
The advice Larry received ('Play between the cracks..') reminds me that, as a callow youth, there was much for me to learn about etiquette - off-stage and on. Just as Larry heeded the subtle tip, I believe that I learned some lessons that way, too.
Then there's the old campaigner who's 'played this way' all his life; 'It was good enough for the other bands who were glad to have me...' etc., etc.. Someone with that attitude and is 'of an age' is unlikely to change, sadly.
It's so much more fun when we play as an ensemble. When you do play in an appropriate place, you'll have more impact and the music will be all the better for it.
----------------------------
Off-stage etiquette? I've never forgotten the estimable Peter Dyke, a London music-shop salesman from the '50s and a fine jazz guitarist. I was maybe 14 and he was 40+. He took me to one side and quietly said: 'People will be looking at you playing all your life - keep those finger-nails clean'. It was done in a kindly but firm manner and I was extra careful from then on.
(Peter sold me my first significant guitars, culminating with that '58 Super 400 that I still grieve over.
)
Overplaying
Posted: 21 Jan 2023 10:30 am
by David Zornes
I didn’t get too much of this, but whenever I would run into a ‘hot-dogger’, (someone who thought they were the greatest player and kept on playing), I would simply put my bar down and fold my hands as if to say, “Have it at. Play all night if you want to; I’m going to get paid the same as you by just sitting here.” Then the leader of the band would ask, “ What’s wrong?” And after explaining the situation, the problem would be fixed. No more “hot-dogging” from the other lead man.
Posted: 21 Jan 2023 11:08 am
by Donny Hinson
I can easily see the logic in that philosophy, David, and generally I would agree. But the problem is that it doesn't always work. At times, and I've seen it happen more than once, the first one in a band to get axed is the one who contributes the least. So if you sit there with your hands folded, it could also wind up biting you in the ass. Food for thought, anyway.
("All or nothing" theories are sometimes like that.)
Posted: 22 Jan 2023 10:00 am
by Brett Lanier
I'm ok with people saying "fill here or there", but in my experience the best music happens when there's a sort of unspoken communal realization about the sound you're making together. When this happens, other players won't just get out of your way, but help make everything you play sound its best.
A few months back I was on a gig with a fiddle player who is really good. We met for the first time at soundcheck. About ten mins before the show I asked him backstage, "Do you have a good sense of where you'll be playing, which breaks etc?". He just said "no" and we both laughed. After that the show went great and there wasn't any confusion.
Re: Two sides to every coin
Posted: 22 Jan 2023 11:10 am
by Rick Campbell
Donny Hinson wrote:It's very hard to correct bad habits that have been allowed to fester for years, or sometimes decades. The vast variety of styles and good or bad habits that we encounter in other players were sometimes developed out of dedication, inattention, and sometimes out of necessity. Some bandmates don't notice it as much, and some prefer it, as is the case in smaller 3 or 4 piece groups. The more instruments you have, the less everyone has to play to get a full sound.
All that said, I feel there is a genre-oriented, stylistic, and sonic character that sometimes allows "playing over" another instrument,
or the singer. We find this to be a very common practice in Classical and Dixieland music. Indeed, the composition and orchestration in these genres
demands "playing over" other players. While in simpler genres, such as most Country music, it's usually seen as detrimental.
I'm not going to suggest that players should play over top of another instrumentalist or singer. But it's important to realize what is going on and that there are sometimes allowances made for this sort of thing. Music, even simple music, is sometimes more complex and subtle than we realize.
As an example of the two stylistic characters of backup, what I'm going to designate as "call and response" and "playing over", I'm posting two examples below. These are popular Ray Price classic country songs most all of us are very familiar with, but what I want you to pay attention to is the
guitar playing, not the steel playing. In the first, we hear the simple an popular "call and response" guitar backing, where the instrumentalist drops out or "backs off" when the singer is singing. But in the second example, you'll hear the guitar playing
all over the singer! Which is preferred? Well, it depends; both sound very good to me. But I think it's important to realize that
tastefully playing behind or "over top" (as Grady Martin does in both examples) requires considerable skill and artistry. The tone, volume, technique, and sustain
must be considered, so it's not something to be done haphazardly or without serious thought to what else is going on, and what the song is communicating to the listener. Again, this is only to illustrate that there are two sides to every argument.
Example #1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi76pWvnv_E
Example #2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM11nQZHacU
Good examples. The second one is not what I'd call playing on top of the singer, but more complementing the singer. I do it on fiddle sometimes where you pull long, often double stops harmony type notes behind the singer. It has to be done with taste and discipline.
As you you know, among pros this is rarely a problem. It's the guys that learn to play the melody of a song at home and think it's okay to play their instrumental version simultaneously while the singer is singing. I find it best when the players are singers themselves, and they understand how it works.
Another similar situation is when a player is supposed to be playing rhythm or fills, but they are rehearsing their upcoming break on top of the singer.
What I've done in the past when someone plays on top of my break is to just quit playing, and fold my arms. A few times and they will eventually realize that I'm not going to compete with them. If it gets excessive, the band leader will notice and then it's up to him to sort it out.
RC
Posted: 22 Jan 2023 1:17 pm
by John De Maille
I was hired for a gig where the leader was the bass player and front man. He was very full of himself and a legend in his own mind. So.... when I played my solos he would whistle into the mike along with the tune. I let it slide for the first set, but, I decided to play over him while he sang. Well, we had a semi heated conversation about it and he said that's the way he always does it. Needless to say I never worked for him again. Sometimes old school and arrogance sucks.
Posted: 22 Jan 2023 5:34 pm
by Dave Hopping
Probably the best way to help everything hang together onstage is always to be listening to the other players, especially the lead voice/instrument.When someone is listening only to himself, he'll play his own stuff, which will likely have nothing to do with whatever musical statement the ensemble is trying to make AND he'll play louder and louder in an effort to shut out the other instruments.
I did a couple of gigs with a steel player(not ever on the SGF) who could shred faster than ten metalheads combined, and proved it all through every song, every set. Quickly found an excuse to nope outa THAT gig!
Posted: 23 Jan 2023 8:30 am
by Duane Becker
Nope, I never have found a solution to the problem of a fellow musician playing over the top of others.
I just quit a band on the dance night at an Eagles club because of the problem. This was a sax player that the leader of the band invited out to sit in, but the guy never left. I spoke to the band leader. We sat down and in a nice way told the sax player to only play parts. This worked for one set, by the close of the night, sax player was back to playing from beginning to end. I stayed for another 2 weeks and then left-finally the sax player was kicked out of the club by the clubs officers for continually inviting people in and not paying the cover. He was kicked out, but I never went back.
Overplaying
Posted: 23 Jan 2023 4:13 pm
by David Zornes
Donny Hinson wrote:I can easily see the logic in that philosophy, David, and generally I would agree. But the problem is that it doesn't always work. At times, and I've seen it happen more than once, the first one in a band to get axed is the one who contributes the least. So if you sit there with your hands folded, it could also wind up biting you in the ass. Food for thought, anyway.
("All or nothing" theories are sometimes like that.)
Typically Donnie that could true, but note that this did not happen to me very often. I faced this maybe 3-4 times in my career. Usually after once happening, it never happened again with the same lead man.
Posted: 23 Jan 2023 4:19 pm
by Jack Stanton
What John McClung said...If that doesn't work and you know it's a situation where you don't care if you go back to, put your bar down, sit there in a non-threating pose (think the Big E on the black album cover), paying attention. Sooner or later someone's going to ask you why you're not playing. Let them know you're not going to play on top of anyone else, and when they want to make room for you, you'll gladly play. If that doesn't work, collect your pay and move on.
Posted: 23 Jan 2023 8:35 pm
by Damir Besic
I love those guys, I just relax , lay back , and let them do all the work lol …
Posted: 25 Jan 2023 9:30 am
by Rich Upright
I live in Tampa Bay, which is "overplaying musician central".
I don't even bother fighting anymore; just basically in it for the money nowadays anyway. I just lay back, get paid, & go home.
Posted: 25 Jan 2023 10:05 am
by Bob Carlucci
Damir Besic wrote:I love those guys, I just relax , lay back , and let them do all the work lol …
Best attitude toward some band situations.. I fought and fretted over that crap for years,, Not worth it.. Grab your money after the gig, and keep your eyes open for a situation with musicians that want to make good music, not stroke their own egos... Problem is, all too often, especially these days, there just aren't many opportunities to play with good players, and you must simply choose between playing crappy gigs for the bread, or not playing out at all.... bob
Posted: 25 Jan 2023 11:16 am
by Jerry Overstreet
I admire you guys' tolerance and patience. I spent years putting up with time jumpers, volume wars, overplayers, crappy singers, egos. As Bob says, sometimes you have to put up with that stuff if you want to work.
The other side, is that sometimes these guys are your friends, so you just do it for the fun. Maybe you don't want to hurt feelings or cause problems.
...I just decided I didn't want to do that anymore.
Unfortunately, my goal of playing professionally didn't materialize for several reasons, some self inflicted. However, my years of hours per day practice and study netted an education I cherish, so I'm not bitter. I just don't feel like giving that away to those with a "that's good enough" attitude.
My phone has nearly stopped ringing, but that's okay...I kind of like it that way.
Posted: 25 Jan 2023 8:51 pm
by Tim Harr
This thread begs the question.. why is this player in the band in the first place? I suspect that the constant playing and like behavior didn't "just start".
If the band is a serious and considered a business, then there is nothing personal.. Replace the player. It is not someone else's place to "change" that person or preach to them what they feel is right.
Like many things, it probably depends on the unique situation...
Posted: 26 Jan 2023 8:31 pm
by Bob Hoffnar
My solution is to practice so I'm able to play in better situations. I try to keep my mouth shut because it's a pointless waste of time to try to correct somebody else's playing. As I get more busy playing with musicians I enjoy I let the other gigs go.
Posted: 26 Jan 2023 9:58 pm
by Dennis Detweiler
I'm currently going through this. Lead singer has been gradually, more and more, playing his own fills at the end of his vocal lines and on top of me. I finally told him, "if you're going to play your own fills on top of mine, I'll just back out of my fill when you are between vocal lines and you can play a couple of measures of fill. Otherwise it sounds like a train wreck between your vocal lines." This conversation took place this week. So, we'll see how it goes this weekend.
Lefty, I hope you're doing well, my friend!"
Posted: 27 Jan 2023 6:47 am
by john buffington
Jimmy Day once said to a young beginner (me) when the stingers mouth is moving you don't play, I take this to apply to other lead instrument(s). This is a hard fix, I too am interested in finding the solution to this. Many years ago I had a similar problem in a band and I finally quit after discussing this with the band leader, with no fix. Problem was the fiddle player would randomly jump in and play whenever the urge struck.
Posted: 27 Jan 2023 7:06 am
by Dennis Detweiler
I've found, with experienced sidemen, if they played in a 3 piece band or a 4 piece where they were the only lead instrument, they were more likely to play constantly. I've played in large and 4 piece bands. I worked with a lead player that would play a verse or chorus fill and then the next time when it was his turn to fill, just continue to strum. I also worked a one night job with a lead player that played fills constantly. The only room for me was on a ride. Some jobs, you just get the money and run. A band that rehearses weekly is where you can get down to the nitty gritty and iron out each song. As we get older and less band rehearsal, we tend to rely on our experience which includes knowing when and when not to play. Eyeball contact and hand gestures to communicate during a song. I guess, that includes the one finger gesture?
Posted: 27 Jan 2023 11:00 am
by Dave Mudgett
I don't see this largely as a matter of "etiquette". To me, the issues are, "What is right for the particular music being played?" and "What is expected - by the singer, the rest of the band, and the audience?".
So I'm with Donny and Jim C - this is heavily style- and music-culture driven. Clearly, the expectations for traditional country (and in fact, many old-school traditional styles), blues of various sorts, rock of various sorts (which is not that different from a lot of modern country), and jazz of various sorts, are frequently different. I still play guitar quite a bit, and I don't just play traditional country music. Strong comping is often expected, even demanded. I have had band-mates ask me why I stopped playing - "Is something wrong?". "No", I say, "but it seems to me that some space is the best thing here." I often get quizzical looks. Music-culture is a big issue here. I mean, don't expect a punker to play nicely, or necessarily nicely with others.
Of course, there are people who are totally tone-deaf in the sense that they are incapable of gleaning any of this from the playing situation at hand. Sometimes it's because, e.g., they have little to no experience playing the style of music. I find some people like this open to impression. Then there are the real hammerheads who have some issue, ranging from stubborness, ego, to outright hostility to anything that is not in the wheelhouse they prefer, and would rather crap all over anything that departs from that. I've seen all of the above, and I'll bet many others here have also. In the latter case, and IMO - if you can, fire them quickly before they do too much damage. I have definitely bailed out of impossible playing situations where I couldn't do anything about it and didn't need the gig.
Posted: 27 Jan 2023 11:18 am
by Fred Treece
Jerry Overstreet wrote:I admire you guys' tolerance and patience. I spent years putting up with time jumpers, volume wars, overplayers, crappy singers, egos. As Bob says, sometimes you have to put up with that stuff if you want to work.
The other side, is that sometimes these guys are your friends, so you just do it for the fun. Maybe you don't want to hurt feelings or cause problems.
...I just decided I didn't want to do that anymore.
Unfortunately, my goal of playing professionally didn't materialize for several reasons, some self inflicted. However, my years of hours per day practice and study netted an education I cherish, so I'm not bitter. I just don't feel like giving that away to those with a "that's good enough" attitude.
My phone has nearly stopped ringing, but that's okay...I kind of like it that way.
This is pretty much me too, except that I can’t “not do it anymore”. Most of my musician friends and neighbors are good enough to play in this area of people starved for live entertainment, so I lower my bar and give it a whack. Keeps me outta trouble.