The Steel Guitar Forum

If that guitar was SO great how come he didn't keep playing it? Rolling Eyes

Because rollers, knees and other new changes can help. How many times can I say that those types of things can be nice and yet you still don't hear my point? I'm simply proposing that they are not mandatory, a lot of great music was made with older guitars and there can be a tone difference that some might appreciate. I suggest the original poster consider stringing it up and see how he feels. The rest of you are suggesting he not even bother. He should lose money and sell it on or throw it in the trash. That seems strange to me.

Please do not roll your eyes at me. It's unneeded.

"Yes, the tone from those guitars back then were amazing! So were the players, none of them beginners by any stretch!" You are right, they started on something worse and everyone else started on things like permanents and they did fine.

"Not even sure how to respond about the roller nuts not being a necessity." I'm not saying roller-less is perfect. It isn't. There can be better tone without rollers as Buddy stated. but your notes might not always return perfectly over the length of a night........my experience shows me that it's not true to say it is every song. It is also less of an issue when you only have ABC pedals.

"The last time I saw the "Blade" it had roller nuts, and the underneath looked like a knee lever farm!" The Blade is an Emmons Push pull which has no similarity to Sho Bud permanents. Buddy was talking about his shoBuds prior to his Emmons guitars. Yes Buddy wanted more out f his guitar but he didn't throw his Permanent out...he gave it to Pete Drake who went on with how many hits with that thing? It's not garbage.

"Going out on a limb here and guessing it was Bobbe that outbid you on the Bigsby?" Yes he did and it's fine. I ended up with a D-10 Clinesmith pedal steel instead which fills my Bigsby need. I feel his actions were questionable and thought so while he was talking trash about the guitar. To be clear. I do not think you have other guitars to sell or have any bad motivations such as Bobby did. I believe that your point is that a new guitar would be less trouble and I don't disagree.

My first pedal steel was a fingertip Sho~Bud.
Other than having to re-tune between every song and breaking strings, it was an OK guitar.

Might as well string up the E9 neck and see how good or bad things are . Jerry

Bob Muller wrote:Here are a couple photos of a similar guitar that I restored, it is very possible but a lot of time and work. It all depends on how far you want to go.

Bob,

Your workmanship is impeccable! Nice job!

J. D.

Jim,

Here is a prime example of the guitar I recommend, an MSA 8 X5, a guitar like this would allow you to actually learn something, rather than work on all the time.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=382109

They stay in tune, they are built like an Abrahms Tank, and sound decent. Forget about wearing it out! It ain't gonna happen!

A few years from now you could upgrade to the brand of your choice, and get get most of your money back, if not all of it.

Best,

John

Ladies and gentlemen: Jim seems to have left the building!

May have been scared off by the frenzy.

Ken Pippus wrote:Ladies and gentlemen: Jim seems to have left the building!

May have been scared off by the frenzy.

Ken,

I sure hope thats not the case, Jim seems passionate about the instrument. Its too bad that he picked a guitar that is so ill suited for a beginner.

I understand the cool factor about old SHO~BUDS, and I appreciate the beauty of a guitar like Bob Muller so painstakingly restored but the fact remains that no player of any moment has used equipment like that for a go to axe in close to sixty years now.

That guitar is from an era when pedal steel guitar was still in its infancy.

Just the fact that you are stuck with a copedant that you cannot change or adjust should be a deterrent for the serious student!

They don't call them "Permanents" for nothing!

I really appreciate all of the comments. I don’t understand why some of them are so negative however. I’ve been playing standard guitar for nearly 65 years and started out playing some really bad instruments, but I kept going.
I’ve restrung this guitar and cleaned it up a bit. I’ve learned Born to Lose, Amazing Grace and A Closer walk with thee so far. All with no pedals because I’m still learning how to set this thing up. The C6 is almost intuitive, however the E9 is really challenging. The 3 E9 pedals are still a little mysterious to me but I’m forging ahead.

Here are a couple of steel guitars I’ve built. The single 12 I made for a great steel player and a very close friend Robbie Daniels..
The 8 string frying pan I made for a player in Az…

Does anyone have a copedent for the ShoBud Permanent E9 with 3 pedals and 2 knee levers that will render a i iv v chord setup….
Also, how bout a copedent for the C6 with 5 pedals and 1 knee lever for the ShoBud Permanent that will render a i iv v chord setup…
Desperately trying to learn my new (old) 64 ShoBud Permanent!!!!! I’ll never give up!!! Thanks. Jim “The Newby”

Jim Trantham wrote:Does anyone have a copedent for the ShoBud Permanent E9 with 3 pedals and 2 knee levers that will render a i iv v chord setup….
Also, how bout a copedent for the C6 with 5 pedals and 1 knee lever for the ShoBud Permanent that will render a i iv v chord setup…
Desperately trying to learn my new (old) 64 ShoBud Permanent!!!!! I’ll never give up!!! Thanks. Jim “The Newby”

Jim,
I'm sorry you've had to endure the overwhelming support of our forum experts, it can be at least entertaining if not helpful.

The truth is you have an instrument that with maybe a pickup swap would put almost any modern guitar to shame in the tone department. As you have already ascertained, you don't even need pedals to play C6 and the ABC pedals for E9 could be put in order very quickly. You would probably do well to totally exhaust the capabilities of AB pedals before you concerned yourself too much further, you will then be able to better use whatever additions you may have.

Also, the solid nut is not a big deal for strings that are not raised and lowered(which that guitar can't reliably do anyway), maybe just some lube like you'd use on a guitar nut.

Consider just ABC pedals for E9 and lowering string 8 a half tone on a knee lever. It would be possible to raise string 4 a half tone on a lever but it would have to be tuned under the guitar.

Standard C6 tuning for pedals 4-7 should be possible with little fanfare, but pedal 8 would be limited to only raising the 7th string a half tone.

And for the record, from what I can see from the pics the pedals could be made to work with zero parts needed other than some nuts or springs; a lot of playing could be had for a day's worth of work.

Thank you Kelcey!!

Steve Waltz wrote:I had a guitar of that same vintage painted that color over the original finish. It came from the mid-west. It was a lot of work to remove because of how much paint was used. Looking back, it might have been fun to just leave it alone.

The comments might make you think it's hopeless, it's not. If you are just starting, there is a lot of steel playing you can learn on that guitar. Obviously it worked well enough for someone else to bother altering it for looks and sound which they wouldn't do if they couldn't play it. It is more limited than a modern guitar but you have it so make the most of it.

Search "Pull release" on the forum. That is what you have. Read how to tune" Pull release". String it up and play it. Ignore knees for now because the tuning is easier and more reliable without those at this point. Just focus on learning as much A and B pedal as you can and/or get going on your C6th tuning with just pedals or without.

Others will disagree but I have a feeling some are people that want to mimic the exact way that some modernish song was played which requires a more modern set up such as many more knees.... Valid for them.

Pull release isn't that complex. Tune pedals down at the keyhead, tune pedals up at the screws at the back. Tune strings with no pedals at the keyhead. You will find details in your forum search.

Thank you Steve for the encouragement! No matter what, I’m excited to have this guitar! I’m searching for tuning instruments.

It looks like right knee right raises 2nd string. Left knee right lowers the lower E? It's kind of hard to tell from the picture because the knee levers are down and blocking the view and there are alot more pivot points and places for things to go wrong with how those knees were installed but again, you could give it a shot as is. Later if you want those to work better, have a look at how Bob did his. The straight lines of the rods are important on pull release guitars.

Did you get your answer about 1 4 5? Or how to set up pedals? In general 1 is open ignore top two strings. IV is A and B pedal. V is AB slide up two frets or there is a way to get it at the open position with B pedal and string 2. There is much more to it that I am leaving out as the tuning isn't that simple but searching the forum will give you info.

On C6th 1 is open. IV7th is normally pedal 6, Pedal five is II7th in the open position (lowers string 5 1/2 step). V7th can be pedal 6 up two frets. Pedal 7 in your open position can be a V6th and you can get the 7th in there by using the 2nd string 1/2 raise part of pedal 5.BTW pedal five should lower string 6 1/2 step. That is where you get your 7th in the IV position.

That was all so general and based on what your pedals do my comments might be useless. Forum search for details.

copedant basics

https://steelguitaracademy.com/instruct ... ined.shtml

One last, I can't see what fingers your rods for A B and C go to. ABC is most likely but some people use the "Day" set up which is CBA. Follow the copedant site I gave and follow the rods to see if they go to the correct fingers ( fingers are what the string is attached to at the ball end of the string and the finger either raises or lowers a string.) IF there is no finger, then it is set up to not have any change and you mount the string to the changer body.

Steve Waltz wrote:copedant basics

https://steelguitaracademy.com/instruct ... ined.shtml

I followed the link and am going to use the Emmons copedent… I’m pretty darn sure I can straighten the undercarriage out to look better and hopefully operate better. I’m definitely not afraid of working on this guitar. I’ve taken a lot of pics for reference…
Again Steve, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your help…also Kelcey Oneil was very encouraging…..
Thank you…..

I’m pretty darn sure I can straighten the undercarriage out to look better and hopefully operate better.

Please keep us updated on your progress. I'm hoping you can get this guitar back to playing condition.

Glad I could help. An audio clip or an opinion on the pickups would be interesting. I believe the idea is that the two single coil pickups on each neck work as a noise cancelling thing sort of like a humbucker. The original pickups were lower ohms than a modern guitar and had a coil tap where your neck selectors are. The selector used to be between necks where that metal plate is.

Just want to say, Jim -- I felt some despair, looking at your original post. What was 'missing' was any idea of your competence and experience and drive. In the hands of a naive person who knows nothing about PSG, this would be a tragic scenario. I wouldn't know where to begin trying to help 'that person' who had made the mistake of buying this.

What we now understand is that you are smart, motivated and competent. That makes all the difference to me. I have no experience with this model of Sho-Bud so I don't know that I can help but I am happy to see that your head is on straight and that this guitar has a good chance at a second life.

Steve Waltz wrote:Glad I could help. An audio clip or an opinion on the pickups would be interesting. I believe the idea is that the two single coil pickups on each neck work as a noise cancelling thing sort of like a humbucker. The original pickups were lower ohms than a modern guitar and had a coil tap where your neck selectors are. The selector used to be between necks where that metal plate is.

Oh wow. I wondered why the plate was covering the hole. I’d like to get back to some original pups. I understand guitar wiring so it shouldn’t be a problem if I can find the pups… Thank you again so very much for all your continued support.
Oh, one more thing about the current pups. They are extremely bright and the tone controls don’t seem to temper that very well… I know I can add darker caps to help that situation and might do that. The other thing I noticed is that the pups have to be very close to the strings to pickup the sound…

Jon Light wrote:Just want to say, Jim -- I felt some despair, looking at your original post. What was 'missing' was any idea of your competence and experience and drive. In the hands of a naive person who knows nothing about PSG, this would be a tragic scenario. I wouldn't know where to begin trying to help 'that person' who had made the mistake of buying this.

What we now understand is that you are smart, motivated and competent. That makes all the difference to me. I have no experience with this model of Sho-Bud so I don't know that I can help but I am happy to see that your head is on straight and that this guitar has a good chance at a second life.

Thank you Jon and I appreciate your kind words.

Jim,
Measure the ohms of a pickup. Originals would be around 14Kish or lower. If yours are in the 20K range they will have a very different sound. Also the bright sound, might be odd to you if you aren't familiar with pedal steel tone or it might be too bright for some other reason......not much help there right? My amps have different setting for standard guitar and steel guitar. The pot on the usual volume pedal can cause the tone to change and the pickup might be acting different than it would without a normal pedal which usually doesn't ride at 100% open. IT's backed off for a few reasons. I don't know if you are using a V pedal.

The correct pick up replacement for that guitar is important and people might suggest some modern thing which I don't think is a good idea. Todd Clinesmith would be a good person to talk with about an appropriate pickup. He knows what Sho Bud was using at that time. He can wire for coil tap.

Pickups are usually set by placing two quarters on the pickup and then just touching the underside of the string.

Steve Waltz wrote:Jim,
Measure the ohms of a pickup. Originals would be around 14Kish or lower. If yours are in the 20K range they will have a very different sound. Also the bright sound, might be odd to you if you aren't familiar with pedal steel tone or it might be too bright for some other reason......not much help there right? My amps have different setting for standard guitar and steel guitar. The pot on the usual volume pedal can cause the tone to change and the pickup might be acting different than it would without a normal pedal which usually doesn't ride at 100% open. IT's backed off for a few reasons. I don't know if you are using a V pedal.

The correct pick up replacement for that guitar is important and people might suggest some modern thing which I don't think is a good idea. Todd Clinesmith would be a good person to talk with about an appropriate pickup. He knows what Sho Bud was using at that time. He can wire for coil tap.

Pickups are usually set by placing two quarters on the pickup and then just touching the underside of the string.

Thanks Steve. To the test bench I’ll go and figure out what I’ve got… I have the means to do everything you said. Thank you