The Steel Guitar Forum

Why is the 3rd on top of C6th so amazing?? What chords or uses am I missing?

At the moment I am no where near qualified to answer. I'm like a guy blindfolded stumbling around in an amusement park. Its fun, but I have no idea what I'm doing. I hope someone smarter will chime in... I have been doing some single string slides on that note especially when starting an ascending line on lower strings, and when I run out of room I just keep going up off the third. I think this just comes natural coming from 6 string slide playing, mimicking Kokomo Arnold and the likes.

Yeah I ended up putting the F# on top as well. G# reverse slant? In battle conditions at a gig grabbing for fast double stops I can't do a reverse slant, maybe I am the one missing, but that just seems a lot. I am using forward slants, and I did use reverse coupla time is on slow songs for other bands. I guess I have too much Don Helms in my bloodstream. I do wish I could put G# on bottom as well but not enough strings. When I took G# off I just got frustrated. All my Hank licks are gone. My skill level isn't high enough for fast reverse slants I guess

Question is what are you playing as the same voicing is available in a straight bar. If you can't be bothered to reverse slant you can play an octave up.

But question still stands what exactly is the burning need for the 3rd on top of a 13th tuning? When playing Chord melody or soloing the benefits don't seem to be many but I may be missing something so wanted to know what is that something??

As all of the songs etc in E13 without it don't seem to have an issue?

I'm trying it for a while with the 3rd on top but other than literally playing a 5-R-3 or a R-b3-5 in a voicing in a high octave WITHOUT having to slant I'm not sure what the benefit is?

As both are available slanting nearby.

Maybe Mike or Guy or Andy could tell me what I'm missing as to why it is so integral?

I just found a really cool move using the top G#. It's the signature lick of Buds bounce. Pretty easy 1-3-5 reverse slant I-IV movement. I already think I couldn't live without the high G#. This tuning is making me be much more conscious of my grips, whereas in A6 I just kind of grab any convenient notes below and it all sounds pretty good, I love this about A6, but it was making me pretty lazy!

Tim Toberer wrote:I just found a really cool move using the top G#. It's the signature lick of Buds bounce. Pretty easy 1-3-5 reverse slant I-IV movement. I already think I couldn't live without the high G#. This tuning is making me be much more conscious of my grips, whereas in A6 I just kind of grab any convenient notes below and it all sounds pretty good, I love this about A6, but it was making me pretty lazy!

What are the notes Tim?

Or the Interval movements?

Tim Toberer wrote:but the one that most interests me is (lo to hi) B D E F# G# B C# E.

Interesting thread. My main main tuning is similar but without the high B and adding G at the bottom. So it's: G B D E F# G# C# E (= JB's C#-9th).

The good thing of this E13 version is the possibility to retune to A6 (although I usually just change 1 string: G# to A, what I think is brillant for Western Swing stuff) or B11 if I really need it. Therefore I'll stick to this E13 version.

Nevertheless I'm tempted to try some the E13 tuning from this thread.

What are the notes Tim?

Okay, sorry hopefully this helps. I'm still familiarizing myself with the technical terms used for this instrument, so forgive me. It is the top major grip on the 5th fret. E-A-C#. Thats the IV chord. The I chord is slanted back on the same 3 strings 1-3-5, E-G#-B. I'm not sure what this type of slant is called, but in playing Buds Bounce I'm doing a windshield wiper motion mimicking the A+B pedal steel sound. On my new guitar these slants seem to intonate better than my other guitar. The nut is about 1/4" narrower than the bridge. These reverse slants seem like they could become pretty fluid with some practice. I think I need to drill out my bar little more, still feels a little heavy.

There is also a sweet forward slant dominant chord, A7 on the top 4 strings 8th fret A-C#-E-G. I'm getting some screaming diminished sounds out of this one too!

Nevertheless I'm tempted to try some the E13 tuning from this thread.

Some people who also play pedal steel have noted that since it is so close to E9 it can be a little frustrating. Tom Morrell wore the soles out of this tuning.

Tim Toberer wrote:

What are the notes Tim?

.... E-A-C#. ...on the same 3 strings 1-3-5, E-G#-B. ...forward slant dominant chord, A7 on the top 4 strings 8th fret A-C#-E-G. I'm getting some screaming diminished sounds out of this one too!

Nevertheless I'm tempted to try some the E13 tuning from this thread.

Some people who also play pedal steel have noted that since it is so close to E9 it can be a little frustrating. Tom Morrell wore the soles out of this tuning.

Thanks for Sharing Tim. OK ready my 2cents.

Agreed I am familiar with that pedal sound and others too
You have the exact notes also at the 5th fret One octave lower in pitch using the same exact grip. This is where you can do the exact same "reverse slant" to go from the IV to the I chord.

If you want the same pitch as that high voicing simply move up one octave to the 17th fret.

The Dominant 7th forward slant you described can also be achieved at the 10th fret same exact forward slant starting on your B string. same rules apply for higher pitched one simply move up one octave.

If you get rid of a note usually 5th of a chord if its not altered in some way then this gives you the same high pitch sound in a few positions. Another common technique is to forget the root note which means simply # your C major triad. So it would be = C#, E, G you can find at your 8th fret and also many other places.

I say this to say not sure if I have found a significant loss without that high G# in my observations. Right I think I'm getting rid of it again. No benefit for me that I can see except an easier higher pitched version.

I say this to say not sure if I have found a significant loss without that high G# in my observations.

Thanks for pointing out those other voicings! You have obviously spent a lot of time with this tuning. So far I've only been tinkering with it for an hour or so. Looking at the fretboard map, I'm very excited to see many, many possibilities all over the fretboard for fat juicy jazz chords. The problem with the high G# is it gets ridiculous above the 12 fret. It's kind of a waste of precious real estate. For the time being I spend 90% of my time in the lower half so not a problem for me. Also there is just something that sounds right having it there. Possibly the Don Helms effect. At some point I may arrive at the same conclusion as you.

Tim Toberer wrote:

I say this to say not sure if I have found a significant loss without that high G# in my observations.

Thanks for pointing out those other voicings! You have obviously spent a lot of time with this tuning. So far I've only been tinkering with it for an hour or so. Looking at the fretboard map, I'm very excited to see many, many possibilities all over the fretboard for fat juicy jazz chords. The problem with the high G# is it gets ridiculous above the 12 fret. It's kind of a waste of precious real estate. For the time being I spend 90% of my time in the lower half so not a problem for me. Also there is just something that sounds right having it there. Possibly the Don Helms effect. At some point I may arrive at the same conclusion as you.

Most of the don Helms stuff was Dyads. 2 notes which can be replicated on pretty much somewhere else.

I agree after the 12th fret that high G# string it starts to sound a little too bright like a pedal steel which is great sometimes but I'm not a fan of it so high up in E13th. Dropped down a few frets as a C13 it has more bottom end and I find clashes a bit with the lower notes but hey its all subjective. Main point is I am not sure I see the plus side to having that high G# interval wise yet. No added benefit other than avoiding having to do 2 slants or simply playing an octave up to achieve the same result. Tim sounds like we should have a catchup might be fun.

For some reason my songs/style really benefits from the high G#. I hated not having it there when I took it off. I find it essential part of my tuning. I guess that's why so many different tunings. Ppl see things different. I just like it there. No theory. Just like it.

Ppl see things different.

Beautifully put Tom! I guess I think this question is worth asking (What is the most useful way to set up this tuning?), but this would be a very boring forum if everyone had the same answer. For me what is interesting, are the reasons we arrive at these conclusions. Sometimes the reasons are simple like "I just like it" or " it seems right", and for some people, they are analyzing it from every angle trying to figure out the most efficient way of doing things. Neither are right or wrong. In the end, it's all about the music and it speaks for itself.

Learning steel or any instrument is a huge commitment and this instrument, more than any I can think of does not come with instructions. Picking a tuning to explore is the first major fork in the road we face. All of our consecutive decisions are then based on this decision, and our playing style may be limited in some ways. You can't play notes that aren't there. I would love to hear from anyone else who tries this or similar tuning or has thoughts on picking a tuning in general. I feel like I'm starting to whip a dead horse at this point, so I guess its probably time for me to just sit down and start playin the damn thing.

LOL. Well said Gents.
I agree that the path is not a clear one. I also get how once you have put in time with a specific layout its seems harder to switch. But its not as bad as you may think.

I also get how once you have put in time with a specific layout its seems harder to switch. But its not as bad as you may think.

As a beginner I think the temptation to play around with tunings is unavoidable especially if it only means tweaking a few strings. Being a guitar player, for years I played around with alternate tunings till I settled in on good old standard tuning, sometimes Drop D.
I have made much larger strides by focusing on one tuning. If I ever want to learn something that was played in DADGAD or something else, I just find a way to play it in standard. What always bothered me about 6th tunings is the larger interval gap between the 1 and the 3. They feel slightly unbalanced especially for single note playing. I'm sold on 13 tunings and am more confident moving forward. Once I have a solid foundation, I may venture out again who knows.