The Steel Guitar Forum

10x14? Scott... that is an engineering marvel... With my 10x9, I might not be as nuts 🤪 as I thought 😂🤣😂

thought I was getting somewhere with my 10x8 JCH. then I got the 10x11 Emmons and now the 10x14 Excel. I believe I've hit the limit!

I suspect it's only Excel that's capable of handling that many changes. Mine is four years old and has 7 up 4 down. I don't know if the count's gone up since!

7 up, 5 down on Benjamin's and my guitars!

Go Mitsuo San!

Mike Vallandigham wrote:Interesting. Thanks for posting a photo!

It looks like you and I have the same color Aluminum on our guitars. Here's my 2018 S12.

Mike,
Does the changer roller ends have a somewhat pointed area that the strings run across? Hard to tell from the pics. If so, does it cause any problems with string breakage? I know Mitsuo is a master engineer and would not allow that to be a problem.

This is a 2010 Excel Changer end..

Hey Larry that looks nice!

I really like the later setup..my 2 older Excels are backwards from that one..

Curt, no, the finger is shaped that way, but there is a little radiused groove that the string sits in. The groove just barely breaks that angle you see.

Never broke a string on this one.

Mike Vallandigham wrote:Curt, no, the finger is shaped that way, but there is a little radiused groove that the string sits in. The groove just barely breaks that angle you see.

Never broke a string on this one.

AH! I see it now. I thought that was the case. Yeah, I personally don't believe there's a more well engineered guitar than these Excels

I'm ordering an Excel U12 E9/C6 which he does with a sort of cam lever(?) to change all or most the the string pitches, rendering the tunings independent of each other. It seems much superior to a E/9/B6. However I'm still unclear of the difference in regard to B6 pedals 45678 affecting the same strings as E9 and vice versa (as they do). Mitsuo says with E9/C6 pedals 45678 have no effect on the E9 setting, nor do pedal 123 have any effect on C6 setting. But then the knee levers do, and I'm still having trouble comprehending this.
I had first sent him a copedent similar to Greg Cutshaw's E9/C6,(which is brilliant),he retained the mutual changes as if it were E9/B6, and Mitsuo crossed out all the changes that pedals 45678 on E9 and 123 on C6 would have done. Saying he couldn't do what Greg did, which was to keep all pedals affecting both tunings at all times but not the knee levers. Now I'm more confused.

Peter, all pedals effect all the strings.

The thing is you don't push the 45678 pedals when playing in E9 mode, and don't press the 123 pedals in C6 mode.

You can, but they aren't tuned right, because the base tuning is not set correctly.

Make sense?

And yes, the Right Knee levers change function when you throw the lever.

Those work by having two cross rods for each knee lever, and the shifter selects which cross rod the knee lever operates.

I have two of these, they work flawlessly.

Have no fear.

This is simpler that it seems.

12 strings tuned to E9. Pedals 123 and all the knee levers work.

Throw the shifter all the strings are retuned (except for the Es or course). This is done by a bar that slides forward, operating the fingers to alter the tuning. Adjustable (tunable) by little screws.

Now move your left knee over to the center position and use the center knee levers and pedals 45678. Right knee functions change.

It's exactly like playing a D-10, but you keep your hands on the same neck.

I've heard Greg talk about using the other pedals in the wrong tuning, which you can do, but you can't tune them without messing up the tuning of the changes for which they are intended.

So in C6 mode, P3 will still raise the G# strings, but since those two strings are now tuned to G (in the case of string 3) and an A (in the case of the 6th string) So the pedal will pull these strings to some random pitch.

I hope this makes sense.

Easiest way to put it is it works exactly like a D-10.

The OP must be a mutant octopus.

Gorgeous machining on that guitar for sure.

So continuing the Excel U12 E9/C6 conversation (thanks Mike); Yes that makes sense with the pedals, don't need to use 1234 for C6, nor 5678 for E9. I also understand right knee levers can be independent, that is all great, but what will happen with the left knee levers in this copedent? He says he is ready to build, but I don't want the left knee changes affecting both tunings simultaneously. Thanks for your advice, Mitsuo is brilliant but there is that communications gap.

They can't effect both tunings at the same time cause you can't be in both tunings at the same time.

Are you looking at 8+8? Is that Chart from Mitsuo, or did you make it?
If it's his, maybe he's calling the Center knee lever Left there in C6 mode?
That's why I ask if it's 8+8.

Like A D10, you gotta have your knee either in the left knee levers to operate P123, or in the Center knee position to operate P45678.

Maybe the use of the term Universal, as in U12- is confusing things. It's not universal at all, You're either playing a Full C6 neck with full Emmons pedals or a Full Emmons E9.

Looking more at it, that chart must call the center knees LKL LKV and LKR in the C6 portion. Those are the regular Emmons changes for CKL and CKR. My guitars are set up just like this, but I have the standard P4 on C6.

Mike can you post some pics on parts that re-tune the neck in C6 mode?

Christopher Peck wrote:The OP must be a mutant octopus.

Yes, I am a mutant octopus! My identity has been revealed!

In truth, this discussion is developing as I had hoped it would... With owners of Excels providing lots of great insights, observations, photos and comments. I love this forum!

Here ya go. Happened to have this one.
There's the bar against the end plate. Two rods pull it forward (towards the nut) and those little screws (see the one in the middle) bear on the end of the changer fingers to alter the tuning. There's a little spot on the finger for the raise, and another for the lower - there's two holes for the screws, if you want to raise you put it in one hole, for a lower, put it in the other hole.. These do not count in the 7 riase/5 lower numbers.

It's deceptively simple. That's why it's so cool and slick.

Yes Mike that is much like my copedent for D10 and the one I've proposed to Mitsuo for the U12 E9/C6. All pedals do affect both tunings(you just don't use them) It is said that only the RKL and RKR do not. That's why I'm wondering where that leaves all the other knee levers. (RKV, LKL and LKR and LKV). Maybe he now has the capability of switching all knee levers over so this doesn't happen? And to answer your other question, no there are no center knee levers in this copedent, but it may have before it's over, that is a good suggestion, thank you.

Anthony thanks for saying that I was wondering if I should have started a new topic for the rabbit hole I created. Here is another excellent Excel question. In watching E9/B6 players like Cowboy Eddie Long or Steve Sanford, they seem to play E9 a lot on the 234 pedals. What does Pedal 1 do in that setup?

Peter. I have yet to see one with more than teh right knees that change.

I'm confused with your chart there. How will you play C6 licks if your knee is stuck in the far left position, you can't reach teh C6 pedals?

That makes no sense to me. That's why only the Right knees change function. You play P123 and LKL, LKV, LKR in E9, then you have to move your knee to the center knee position to reach the pedals 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Cant access these pedals with your knee still amongst the Left knee levers.

The left knees are not changeable for the same reason that the left knees don't operate both necks on a D-10.

I would love to see a video of this mechanism in action.

Long legs I guess. It would be better to add a couple of center knees, I was actually considering it.