The Steel Guitar Forum

Just wow.

Talking in E9th for a moment here.

At Jim Palenscar's shop I tried a guitar that he had set up with a very firm half-stop on the "F" lever, which ultimately raised to F#. I've considered Johnny's idea of using a split with the "E" lever to get the F note, but rejected it because I use the "F" lever a lot. With 40 years of muscle memory in my "A+F" movement, any change to that lever is unacceptable to me.

Back to D13th... The "CBA" pedal arrangement has advantages in a universal copedent as Jeff Newman demonstrated. The "A" pedal comes in handy at times when your foot is on the inside pedals. My D6th hybrid has "AB" (no C). Using "B" with its right neighbor (a C6th P5) makes little musical sense. I'd switch to a Day-like "BA" in a minute if it weren't for (again) 40 years of muscle memory.

The sympathetic ring that Dean referred to is present on my D6th hybrid as well. I've developed a habit of raising B (the 6th tone) to C with a knee lever when I want to avoid it. Also, I sometimes block that string with my right pinky when releasing "A" if I hadn't raised already it with the lever. One guy I know raises that adjacent 6th tone a half step on his "A" pedal to avoid the problem.

I love Johnny Cox's D13th, by the way. I think that his RKR solution is a brilliant way to get the C6th voicings without changing the root position of the tuning. If I still had an S-12, I'd set it up like that.

This 13th set-up is the best thing I've seen in years. If I were starting from scratch today, I'd adopt Johnny's tuning without hesitation.

Roger Rettig wrote:This 13th set-up is the best thing I've seen in years. If I were starting from scratch today, I'd adopt Johnny's tuning without hesitation.

I can't come at if from a Theoretical Bent, but from hearing Johnny playing it, I agree... Even now, if I wasn't such a slow learning, limited retainer, I'd still like to try it.

If people started on 10-string D9th this would be the natural extension to 12 strings. I think it's easier than going from S-10 E9th to S-12 E9/B6 because the root tone doesn't change. Going from D9th to D13th just adds 2 strings and more pedals to play with.

Hello Everyone. Of all the available setups does D13 allow you to play the most variety of different voicings? Is this the best setup for chord-melody or western swing? On my S10 E9, there are simply some chord alterations which I haven't been able to find a way to play on the instrument.

For instance when you get into the altered scale (super locrian) things get difficult on my 3 pedal 3 lever E9. I've also found augmented chords really difficult to play as it requires me to press the A pedal half way without any stops. That one is very difficult to play in tune as it requires very precise foot control.

Dean Parks wrote:Johnny,

1- On your above 2 copedents ("Emmons split guys" and "what I'll end up with"), there is no F-raise equivalent (previously on your LKL). Instead, you are using LKL to raise the E string equivalent up a step, to use as part of the C pedal replacement. Would you explain the choice to not have an F-raise equivalent?

2- On an early forum post, Buddy said that the one thing annoying about putting the 6th on string 5, was that when he did an A-pedal raise on string 6, the 5th string would ring in sympathetically, and he'd have to remember to block it every time he released the A-pedal. Is that something you have run into?

Dean, I split the D to E raise with the D to DB lower giving me the D#.
I haven't really had a problem with the sympathetic note. Maybe I unconsciously mute it.

Darren Mortillaro wrote:Hello Everyone. Of all the available setups does D13 allow you to play the most variety of different voicings? Is this the best setup for chord-melody or western swing? On my S10 E9, there are simply some chord alterations which I haven't been able to find a way to play on the instrument.

For instance when you get into the altered scale (super locrian) things get difficult on my 3 pedal 3 lever E9. I've also found augmented chords really difficult to play as it requires me to press the A pedal half way without any stops. That one is very difficult to play in tune as it requires very precise foot control.

After 50 years of playing steel and had most every tuning and pedal setup known including E9/B6, Bb6th and a triple neck pedal guitar with 31 strings, 9 pedals and 9 knee levers I find this is the easiest and best way to approach a single tuning. It is all there. Some things have to be gotten to a different way but it's there. I truly wish I had worked this out 40 years ago. The problem with pedal steel is the attitude that it has to be done like So & So did it. E9th and C6th has been the Nashville way since the 60s. Bb the Texas way for decades too. Some of it is do to the mechanical limitations until the past 25 years. Everything my heroes had is on this tuning in one way or another.

Darren Mortillaro wrote: For instance when you get into the altered scale (super locrian) things get difficult on my 3 pedal 3 lever E9. I've also found augmented chords really difficult to play as it requires me to press the A pedal half way without any stops. That one is very difficult to play in tune as it requires very precise foot control.

Try AB pedals and E-raise lever to get A-augmented at the nut. From there, you get a new inversion every time you slide up 4 frets.

Sorry to highjack. Back to D13!

"I split the D to E raise with the D to DB lower giving me the D#"

Splitting E and Db to get the D# is a brilliant move.

Johnny,

With that split, can you still get the 4th string lower by itself for the standard C6th change? I use that a lot on my D6th.

Johnny Cox wrote:

gary pierce wrote:What a great tuning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O50XMV0Wbyk

Here is the setup as in the video. Looking back it makes as much sense as the current one. Either works great. Doing it this way the 1st and 2nd pedals could be either Emmons or Day yet the knee levers could stay the same.

Possibly just my lack of understanding but is there no C pedal equivalent here?

Dustin Rhodes wrote:Possibly just my lack of understanding but is there no C pedal equivalent here?

Yes there is. Pedals 1 and 2 plus LKR is C pedal.

Johnny Cox wrote:

Dustin Rhodes wrote: Possibly just my lack of understanding but is there no C pedal equivalent here?

Yes there is. Pedals 1 and 2 plus LKR is C pedal.

Thank you Johnny. I finally got around to watching your video where you very clearly explained it well before I was asking dumb questions haha. I really like tthe idea of a 6&6 universal. Now to find a steel to put it on.

Johnny Cox wrote:

Dustin Rhodes wrote:Possibly just my lack of understanding but is there no C pedal equivalent here?

Yes there is. Pedals 1 and 2 plus LKR is C pedal.

I do the same thing on my LKV. For several decades I raised the E9th high E to F# on LKV to get the "C pedal" change. Now that I tune to D, my LKV is raising D to E.

There is a disadvantage though if you're used to doing fast "B+C" licks. It's quicker and easier to stomp "B+C" than to coordinate "A+B" plus a knee lever. For that reason, there were some years when I had both the lever and the "C pedal".

On C6th, that same "B+C" fast pedal action is available on strings 2 and 3 with pedals "p6+p7". Think about it.

Johnny and Bob,
I'm learning on an S10 and am probably going to switch to an S12, most likely an 8p 5k, although obviously I could change this. Johnny mentioned that some of the knee levers' changes could be accomplished with pedals. That said, is it preferable to have the 6 pedals you show as opposed to, for instance, 8?
And if the difficulty in learning this new system is about the same for 6 or 8 pedals, which knee levers should I switch to the pedals? And in what sequence should I put them?
I apologize if this is a hard question, but I don't know which pedals I am likely to mash together or what other physical challenges I might have since I have not tried to play any S12 and there is no store near me (central NJ) that has one.
Thanks so much for your advice!

EDIT: A lot of different tunings have been mentioned in this string, so if you have answers and suggestions for me, I would be best to identify which tuning you are starting with.

Alan Struthers wrote:A lot of different tunings have been mentioned in this string, so if you have answers and suggestions for me, I would be best to identify which tuning you are starting with.

Hi Alan,

Johnny has been going through a lot of changes towards the end result of having everything that he would have on a maxed-out D-10. I take the approach of simplifying the copedent in a way that makes it more obvious to a traditional D-10 player moving to a fairly standard U-12 7+5 guitar. Here is that chart:

The first 3 pedals are ABC (Emmons, not CBA Day) and the 2nd string is a Maj7 like on E9th. The knee levers are similar to a factory E9th configuration, including a half-stop on the second string. I hope that they look familiar to you from your S-10. They are the same as E9th, just lowered to D9th.

RKR lowers the 10th and 11th strings to match the C6th intervals (one tone higher, of course). Pedals 4 through 7 are the standard C6th ( p5 through p8 ) changes.

So this is what I recommend as a starting point. If there are any E9th or C6th changes that you feel you must have, things can be rearranged to accommodate that. For example, I would swap RKL and LKR, because it's what I always used on E9th. Or you might want the "Franklin pedal" between P3 and P4, or have the first 3 pedals in a Day CBA configuration. It all boils down to what you're most comfortable with.

I hope that helps.

b0b wrote:

Alan Struthers wrote:A lot of different tunings have been mentioned in this string, so if you have answers and suggestions for me, I would be best to identify which tuning you are starting with.

Hi Alan,

Johnny has been going through a lot of changes towards the end result of having everything that he would have on a maxed-out D-10. I take the approach of simplifying the copedent in a way that makes it more obvious to a traditional D-10 player moving to a fairly standard U-12 7+5 guitar. Here is that chart:

The first 3 pedals are ABC (Emmons, not CBA Day) and the 2nd string is a Maj7 like on E9th. The knee levers are similar to a factory E9th configuration, including a half-stop on the second string. I hope that they look familiar to you from your S-10. They are the same as E9th, just lowered to D9th.

RKR lowers the 10th and 11th strings to match the C6th intervals (one tone higher, of course). Pedals 4 through 7 are the standard C6th ( p5 through p8 ) changes.

So this is what I recommend as a starting point. If there are any E9th or C6th changes that you feel you must have, things can be rearranged to accommodate that. For example, I would swap RKL and LKR, because it's what I always used on E9th. Or you might want the "Franklin pedal" between P3 and P4, or have the first 3 pedals in a Day CBA configuration. It all boils down to what you're most comfortable with.

I hope that helps.

b0b has the right idea in comparing to E9th and C6th. My goal is to get the same changes plus my C6th knee levers on as few pedals as possible. The reason I tune the 2nd to C is because I want the major 7th (Db) when the RKR is engaged. I eliminate the C pedal by using split tuning.

b0b wrote:Johnny,

With that split, can you still get the 4th string lower by itself for the standard C6th change? I use that a lot on my D6th.

Not alone hence why I have the 2nd string raise to DB when lowering the 11th and 12th. Give a major 7th in the open D6th.

Is it any harder with the D13 setup to do all the cliched country licks and fills?

Darren Mortillaro wrote:Is it any harder with the D13 setup to do all the cliched country licks and fills?

No, it's all there.

Thanks to all of you who have commented. This is an incredible education for me. I'm leaning toward using bOb's D13 tuning since it should make the transition from my 10-string E9 neck (Emmons set-up) easier.
Thanks again, friends (and I feel like you all are friends).

Alan Struthers wrote:Thanks to all of you who have commented. This is an incredible education for me. I'm leaning toward using bOb's D13 tuning since it should make the transition from my 10-string E9 neck (Emmons set-up) easier.
Thanks again, friends (and I feel like you all are friends).

Most players that make the switch will probably use the AB or Emmons pedal arrangement and some will likely use 8x5. But after much experimentation and experience the 6x6 BA is the most efficient and ergonomic way.

Studying the tuning now.
The F#- G# change on the top string, E9, has been somewhat popular in the last 30 years, if not more.
I think Paul Franklin was the first to use it.
I don't see it on your copedent.
Any thoughts on it. String breakage? The C pedal gives a nice unison with the F#, but F#-G# has quality of sound that I like.

Chris, check out this post here that shows how you can get a lot of the same changes that the F# to G# gives you. You're pry aware of all this but it's not just a simple unison of the 1st and 4th strings. It's more like a multi-string copy of the F# to G# riffs:


https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... highlight=