The Steel Guitar Forum

These threads come up from time to time, and I have a hard time figuring where to even start ...

First, there are literally dozens and dozens of different styles of rock music. The earliest came out of jump blues/R&B, sometimes with a mixture of hillbilly/country/western-swing, giving old-school rock and roll and rockabilly. For a long time, blues was really the driving force behind rock - I think it's pretty hard to really understand earlier rock styles without having a good feel for blues.

Of course, things have evolved decade after decade as rock forged new directions, picked up various influences, and mutated. Surf and other kinds of instrumental rock-oriented music, party rock of the early 60s, British invasion, folk-rock, psychedelic rock, country rock, blues-influenced or blues-rock, old-school heavy metal, funk rock, jazz-rock and/or fusion, southern rock, punk rock, corporate rock, new wave, big-hair metal, neo-classical metal, grunge rock, hardcore/death metal styles, and far, far more. There are lots and lots of variations, many of which got all mixed together. Different styles frequently require totally different approaches to being played, and there are often whole cultures built around them.

Secondly, some styles of rock uses distortion, others don't - distortion is not remotely a defining factor of rock. Not to mention that there are vastly different types of distortion. Pushing a tube amp is totally different than hitting a bipolar transistor fuzz box set on stun. There are tons and tons of ways to color one's sound, and that has crept, in various ways, into most every style of music, not just rock.

Thirdly, various styles of rock music are entirely legitimate styles of music in the sense that they have their own identity, audience, approach to playing, and most often require significant skill to play them well. To really play any style well generally requires years if not decades to really master. Some styles require much more instrumental and/or vocal virtuosity to pull off well than others. But I frequently hear steel players argue lines that amount to something like, "rock players bad, country players good." This is BS. There are great, good, fair, and poor players of every style.

Personally, I don't see how anybody could expect to play any style of music well without a significant level of immersion in it over a period of time. I think that this requires spending years listening, breaking it down into pieces, understanding what players are doing, integrating it into one's own playing, and then practicing and playing with other people who share a passion for it. This requires, I think, that you at least like the music. Just what I wanna go hear - a bunch of players who don't like rock, think it's a joke, think it's easy to play and all they have to do is turn on a distortion pedal, and only play it because they think that their audience won't come to see them if they don't play it - i.e., phoning it in. There is a certain attitude that partly distinguishes rock (and related styles like blues) from other styles of music.

So I think to play anything authentically and well, players need to love it and have enough passion for it to dig into it pretty deeply.

It doesn't bother me a whit whether or not steel players play rock, or any other style of music. I was a blues, rock and roll, surf, folk/folk-rock, psychedelic, R&B/funk, jazz, bluegrass, and country/country-rock guitar player for 30 years before I ever touched a pedal steel. I played acoustic, electric & slide guitars, and banjo. I still play guitar & slide guitar - lots. I played classical piano before that. I came to pedal steel primarily to apply it to Americana and traditional country music, but I sounded like a blues player for quite some time. I had to unlearn that enough to really get in the country pedal steel frame of mind. I had to really immerse to get anywhere. I needed to really re-train my mind to approach songs very differently. I think that is similarly required for somebody who has spent their life playing country music to really grok various rock, blues, and other related styles. And I think it helps to really see the connections between those various approaches.

I also think that the steel guitar community, and especially the pedal steel community, pays far too little attention to slide guitar. Most of you, I think, really don't see it as a "legitimate" type of steel guitar simply because it's not played horizontally. But that is, IMO, the true link between many styles of blues, rock, and related styles, and steel guitar. Guys like David Lindley switch seamlessly between steel guitar and slide guitar. They know the history, they love it as much as anything else. I really don't think there's much hope for steel players who maintain those types of silos to really integrate into that world.

As far as distorted Teles go - bridge pickup is OK in the right hands - e.g.,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR-yZliN7tU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t21jAhvFwmM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J8BBzCVY6c

And a final question. Is this rock or country? Or blues? Or what is it? And does it matter?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClRHx5FJ9yA

b0b wrote:Well okay, I guess the neck pickup isn't so bad.

And the tone knob tames the bridge pickup in overdrive/distortion situations.

If that’s what you want.

Bobby Hearn wrote:Rock is for kids and grownup dope smoking hippies. 😃

It is a huge relief to me that none of my favorite country artists are/were drug users...

One way to get out of the corn pedal habit when playing rock is to only use the E and B strings with no pedals.

Jacek Jakubek wrote:.......

Great analysis on what makes effective rock playing on the steel guitar. I find your Number 4 (Attack) to be the most important when playing rock steel. Unfortunately, the steel guitar is not ideal for a very aggressive attack because the harder your attack is, the more your intonation will suffer, making you sound more out of tune. Effective, in tune steel playing requires a very light feather-touch picking approach for best intonation and tone. That is why even pro steel players can sound a bit wimpy (weak attack) when playing rock on the steel next to a rock 6-string player.



[.

Sorry but you are absolutely wrong. Charleton, Emmons, Franklin and just about every other player picks with substantial force. Picking hard does not effect intonation. While studying with Charlton he showed me how if I can't feel the string move behind the bar when I pick I'm not playing with enough authority. Where did you come up with the absurd conclusion that pedalsteel players need to play with a feather light touch to play in tune ? I have been lucky enough to spend time with the greats of the instrument and have NEVER encountered the light touch wimpy thing. In fact quite the opposite.

Bob Hoffnar wrote:

Jacek Jakubek wrote:.......

Great analysis on what makes effective rock playing on the steel guitar. I find your Number 4 (Attack) to be the most important when playing rock steel. Unfortunately, the steel guitar is not ideal for a very aggressive attack because the harder your attack is, the more your intonation will suffer, making you sound more out of tune. Effective, in tune steel playing requires a very light feather-touch picking approach for best intonation and tone. That is why even pro steel players can sound a bit wimpy (weak attack) when playing rock on the steel next to a rock 6-string player.



[.

Sorry but you are absolutely wrong. Charleton, Emmons, Franklin and just about every other player picks with substantial force. Picking hard does not effect intonation. While studying with Charlton he showed me how if I can't feel the string move behind the bar when I pick I'm not playing with enough authority. Where did you come up with the absurd conclusion that pedalsteel players need to play with a feather light touch to play in tune ? I have been lucky enough to spend time with the greats of the instrument and have NEVER encountered the light touch wimpy thing. In fact quite the opposite.

You can see this in those old vids of Buddy and Leon Rhodes.

The inference behind most of these discussions about playing rock on PSG, including the OP's initial premise, seems to boil down to a judgement as to whether or not someone sounds sufficiently like a six string rock player in their tone, attack, chord/note choices and phrasing.

If you want to sound like a six string, you should just play a six string.

Bob Hoffnar wrote:Where did you come up with the absurd conclusion that pedal steel players need to play with a feather light touch to play in tune ? I have been lucky enough to spend time with the greats of the instrument and have NEVER encountered the light touch wimpy thing. In fact quite the opposite.

Bob, I came to this conclusion based on my own playing experience, which I admit is limited compared to many guys here (also by observing video of pro players).

I should have wrote instead "the harder my attack is, the more my intonation will suffer, making me sound more out of tune."

If hitting the strings harder has a tendency of making me more out of tune, there's a chance that this also happens to other players. All the players you mention (Charleton, Franklin, Emmons) are the best-of-the-best, so they can probably still play in tune while picking really hard. This may be harder to achieve for lesser players.

Thanks for your post as it is GREAT news to me. I plan on getting back into using finger picks for a stronger attack but I need to work on my intonation/bar control more.

Bob Hoffnar's comments are exactly correct. You should immediately make a concerted effort to pick harder. If you are having intonation problems, that's not the cause of them. Picking harder is not just for pros. It's for anyone that wants to get the best tone out of their steel.

Regarding playing PSG on rock songs, I try to never play the major third interval. All chords are just two notes, usually the one and the five. And never rock on the A & B pedals. That always sounds inappropriate in rock-ish music.

Rocking the pedals works just fine in rock or alternative - it's the timing of it and the attack you use that don't sound country!

On my Emmons Push Pull built by Kelcy O'Neill I use most basic moves that country players do (because I;m a crappy sel player and EVERYTHING play is basic) - but 90% of what I play is eock, blues, or vary "outside" alternative..

I use a few effects, but the only one on almost all the time is analog delay - because I hate the sound of amp combo spring reverb (periodically I use one of my Fender Reverb units from the early 60's, because 1) the reverb covers all frequencies and lacks the high-end voicing of combo reverb, and 2) going in front of the amp it's also another tube gain stage (I do NOT use solid state amps).

Jeff, you described Pete's setup very poorly. True, he did not want to carry loose pedals or a board around - but he started with just a self-built version of a Valley Arts fuzz, then added and changed things over the years. He routed out the top of his Fender 400 in front of the strings and mounted everything except his delay (initiallly an Echople; later a Roland Space Echo)internally.

Through most of the 70's, 80's, and 90's, until he had to stop for health reasons, he had an octave divider; a Mutron envelope filter; self-built tremolo; fuzz; and phase shifter( he used a BiPhase for a short while, but changed to an MXR Phase 90 with the speed preset on "slow" and just a toggle switch) He had an old D'Armond volume pedal, but he rarely used it even on country tunes - hi one-pound, tapered bar and both left and right hand control made a volume pedal essentially redundant.

As his Alzheimers worsened he added one thing and borrowed the position from our discussions - I use six Hottone micro-pedals with my 400, all mounted on the back apron upside-down so I can "kick" them into gear; Pete had a Boss Chorus mounted the same way because it was easier to deal with in his diminishing state.

;And FWIW Jeff, it wasn't a "stompbox stuck to his guitar that sometimes worked". I never saw any of his electronics fail - ever. Your story makes the whole "cheesy effects argument" sound good - but it's not true Plus part of his use of effects, multiple pickups (up to FOUR!), an early MIDI rig etc was that steel was his "hobby" - his day job was stop motion animation Much if his adding/changing of effects was just the joy of tinkering.

OK, back to "rock sound". Fuzz is just an effect as are all the other gadgets listed.

But one of the biggest problems separating rock from country is versatile guitar tone. A pedal steel with no volume/tone circuit and ONE pickup wound to high DC resistance played through a solid state amp (even most tube amps) over-emphasizes the highs and gives the player NO control. Tring to fiddle with amp knobs during a song is absurd, and they have a totally different tonal effect than a passive tone circuit on a guitar; especially one with "overwound" pickups, which have a huge "mid scoop. Midrange punch is critical in a lot of rock music and most steels are not built for it. They are one-trick ponies.

Put controls back on the guitars (a volume/tone circuit also works/sounds different than a volume pedal) and add a second pickup to the guitar (I use a blend control on my 400 rather than a 3-way switch) and a bridge pickup voiced for less piercing treble bite and more midrange gut-punch (mine is made by Jerry Sentell).

Simply, for most rock music a guitar with a single treble or scoop-voiced pickup and no onboard controls - and a heavy metal frame - is FAR too limiting tone-wise..

I can only have one pickup on my Push-Pull without major metal surgery - but it's an SD10 adapted from a D10 and has controls - a volume control, tone control and 3-way tone switch.....just like Leo Fender's Esquires did. And it has a quirky pickup that SHOULD be treble heavy but instead has a big, round sound that's fully adjustable. I can use it for anything.

My point here is - forget the effects, forget the "corn" pedal issue, forget everything except pick attack and right hand position (which alters the tone) - playing with you right hand always in ONE spot won't work well for rock.

- and SOMEBODY PLEASE manufacture instruments that work for ALL styles of music. Cut down the pickup windings by 1/3 (at least); use alnico magnets; put TWO oickups and a switch (or blend control), volume control and tone control on TOP of the guitar; reduce the amount of metal and increase (or ADD!) wood - ash or alder, preferably, as maple tends to have too much treble bite.

Now you have a versatile tool for playing rock, country, progressive, alternative, surf, punk, metal -

And that will significantly lose the "country stigma." Then, with any luck, some skilled player wil publish lesson materials that are generic: "How to play Pedal Steel Guitar for the non-country musician".

Heck, maybe Kelcey will make a beginner's model and sell the whole thing as a package at Guitar Center and Sam Ash.

That would end the "why is pedal steel dying" threads.

Mike Perlowin wrote:This is from 2002. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkSnoeTWR4I

Killer, that’s what I’m talkin bout.

To be completely honest, oh boy!, in the late 70's when I shared the stage with Pete on shows from the Palomino to deep Texas gigs...we both had way more cocaine in our systems to remember too many particulars. Like most of the greats I have met in my career, I milked, stole, squeezed as much information as I could from them. Their band leader at that time even tried to tip us in drugs and not cash..I don't worry about disclosing that now, 'cause it's like, what, 40 something years later? Who cares...Pete used his Fender thru 2 Peavey 400's? My memory is cloudy. His 'stomp box' was attached to the rear right corner of the guitar. It was fuzzy sounding, but he literally played on '11' and I loved it!
As a clarification for the referral to Billy and Lloyd, Billy brought the whole band to eat at the Rendezvous in Memphis after a gig when I asked him about the tone thang, and I spoke to Lloyd at his house which he so graciously invited me to. So, no 'second hand' information from me.
Now, a BIG misunderstanding, I do not try to sound like a guitar..I work on gear that works for me for the sound that I think fits the genre, including using a Leslie and any number of different effects...but for straight blues or classic rock, I use surprisingly few effects. Your steel can supply an amazing amount of tones, textures, and all that..if you just work it. Again, just in my opinion, I'm always, honestly, amazed when I hear someone ask..'what settings should I use on this amp?'. If you have the amp, plug it in, and turn the dang knobs around...you WILL find a tone that will work for you...if you don't, you bought the wrong amp. It's been said many times..try amps out BEFORE you buy! And never discount tube amps 'cause you're afraid of a little break-up. A decently powered amp will not just distort with some input..if you turn it up....tons of Lloyd Green records do not lie. If you need some 'oomph'..you're already there, just stomp it a little.

Jeff Peterson wrote:...Now, a BIG misunderstanding, I do not try to sound like a guitar...

You are a really good player Jeff, I have no doubt whatever you play in a rock context sounds great, but in your OP, while not stating it explicitly, the points you outlined are precisely about emulating the sound and musical approach of what we all associate with rock, which in all its various forms has always revolved around six string guitar. All the other stuff discussed above, avoiding thirds, avoiding the corn squeezes, etc. are just means of better emulating the sounds and feel that come rather easily from a six string.

I think b0b's first reply is the most cogent in the thread. You do have to "think like a steel player" to play steel in any style. Beyond that, how you think about music will determine whether what you choose to play will fit in a given musical context. Just listen to Doug Livingston's amazing interpretations of JS Bach or Mozart.

Ian Worley wrote: ..... how you think about music will determine whether what you choose to play will fit in a given musical context.

Thinking like a musician, in other words. The pedal steel and the guitar are both capable of producing amazing musical events. I don’t see the crime in either of them emulating the best of what each has to offer. It’s going to come out different anyway. They can sound pretty great playing together, too.

Anyone who had the pleasure of knowing Katz Kobayashi knew that before Marty Robbins, he was the lead guitarist (on pedal steel) in several Japanese rock bands. We were opening for Marty at the Sahara in LV in the 70's and Katz would go into the theater to practice in the afternoon. Ripped Clapton, Jeff Beck, but really did justice to Led Zeppelin. Anyone have any recordings of Katz' rock and roll work?

Once in a while I'll figure out a classic guitar rock lead and attempt to play it on PSG. For example the Allmans "Jessica". You can play both harmonizing parts guitar and organ using pedal B and C.
I also spent some time playing in a R+B/Motown band avoiding the major third for the most part.
I have to admit though it was easier to get a classic overdriven slide sound using a lap steel (when called for).
It's kinda ironic that electric guitar players use compression and distortion to increase sustain while we PSG guys have sustain right out of the box.
I find the PSG tone not as rich harmonically compared to an electric six string so I work at getting some of that attack back on PSG in a rock context.
I always thought Sneakey Pete's 400 lacked sustain and this was a good thing in the context he was playing.

I have 2 comments. The first is that a couple of guys here said that they listened to such slide players as Duane Allman and Ry Cooder. But those guys learned from listening to the people who originated the style. People like Charlie Patton, Son House, Robert Johnson, Bukka White, Muddy Waters, etc.

IMHO, the greatest slide player among these people was Fred McDowell.

McDowell, who had been a farmer for most of his life, was discovered in 1958 or '59 and had a 2nd career as a folksinger during the 60s, so he was well documented. Here is one of his many videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64T6ugyWXAA

My second comment refers to the A and B pedals. We normally think of the 6th string the B pedal down as the root of the scale, with the 5th string with the A pedal up as the 2nd degree of the scale,, and the note with the pedal down as the 3rd.

But if you use the 7th string as the root, the 6th with the B pedal becomes the minor third of the blues scale, the 5th string with A pedal up is the 4th, and with the pedal down, the 5th. Additionally, the 4th string is the 7th.

A lot of A and B pedal licks work well in rock, but you have to play them 3 frets up from where you normally would.

Mike Perlowin wrote:A lot of A and B pedal licks work well in rock, but you have to play them 3 frets up from where you normally would.

Or 2 frets down.

Glad to see you posting today, Mike.

Mike Perlowin wrote:My second comment refers to the A and B pedals. We normally think of the 6th string the B pedal down as the root of the scale, with the 5th string with the A pedal up as the 2nd degree of the scale,, and the note with the pedal down as the 3rd.

But if you use the 7th string as the root, the 6th with the B pedal becomes the minor third of the blues scale, the 5th string with A pedal up is the 4th, and with the pedal down, the 5th. Additionally, the 4th string is the 7th.

It is cool to read about that approach to E9 theory. Every now and then I accidentally stumble upon parts that revolve around the 7th string. Aside from opening the door to new phrasings, I think moving everything down a string also provides tones that are friendlier to rock.

This is a very interesting post. This is a bit off topic, but it's somewhat related. Today I was messing around with a couple of overdrive pedals playing E9 on a D10 pedal steel. When I got them to have a fair amount of distortion on either of them, I would notice that when I played 2 frets down from open position, playing string 4 (a flat 7) and string 5 using the A pedal (a 4th up to a 5th) that if I played them both together and hit the A pedal I would hear weird overtones. I noticed if I cut the tone knob on the pedal that it was better. I am wondering if any of you have experienced this before while using either an overdrive pedal or a distortion pedal.

Mike Perlowin wrote:...use the 7th string as the root, the 6th with the B pedal becomes the minor third of the blues scale, the 5th string with A pedal up is the 4th, and with the pedal down, the 5th. Additionally, the 4th string is the 7th.

A lot of A and B pedal licks work well in rock, but you have to play them 3 frets up from where you normally would.

I use this a lot. I have a lever that raises the 4th string E-F#, which gives another root that you can squeeze up to from the 7th (same thing as the open-A pedal squeeze five frets up). You can anchor a lot of nice bluesy phrases around the 5th-root combination on strings 5&4 and the separate pedal/lever squeezes on both strings.

At the same position of course, the E-F raise + A pedal gives a V chord, with no pedal a V7; the E-D# lower with A&B gives a IV9, which can work nicely too on rock tunes where the 3rds are a little ambiguous.

For vamping a rock rhythm there's nothing like playing a 1/5/1 grip on the low strings. This is available on a U12, no pedals. Bring in pedal 1 and you have the typical 5-6 vamp.
The fact that this is not available on a D10 on either neck is perhaps the biggest reason I don't play one.

I love having all that extra bass.You cam hear how I use in the link I posted earlier.

I did. Nice Mike. I don't think you recall but we met at a St Louis convention in the 80s or earley 90s. We both embraced the universal single neck early.