The Steel Guitar Forum

Robert Murphy wrote:Dennis, you are correct. The only way to achieve your goal with today's technology is E-bow.

Ya, I'm looking into other things like compressors and moving to a humbucker.

Anyway, how do you like the Plus pedal and how are you using it with pedal steel?

How are we having a discussion about sustain... where there has been mention (but not near enough made) of the obvious point that most of us create sustain? And it's done with proper volume pedal technique. And that technique doesn't happen automatically, it has to be practiced and developed. When done correctly, you'll have all the sustain you can stand.

Dennis, that 'pop' on the attack that you want to avoid -- and that you are using an effect to remove -- is, again, something commonly handled with the volume pedal. As a newbie, I used to punch holes in my ear drums. It took a few months to develop, but then the foot automatically backed off the pedal without thought whenever that attack-removal effect was needed.

There's no problem here that can't be fixed by developing the right foot. I would suggest this:

1) Turn off the effect that swells into the note. It's a cruch that steered you away from learning what most steelers regularly do automatically with their right foot. You can learn it too. Pull the pedal back, pick, swell in. IMPORTANT: learn to instantly pull it back for the next note. Hitting the right mark on the pedal to have it at the right volume for the next note is the hardest challenge but repitition will get you there. Watch vidoes of good players. They do this all the time and it's a fundamental skill to squeeze out the full potential of the instrument.

2) Turn your amp up. Way up, well beyond what you've done in the past. Set it so that normal playing volume is hit when your volume pedal is only at, say, about 30% of the way 'on' (I would suggest higher, like 50%, but you aren't using picks; the string isn't excited as much with bare fingers so you have a lot more volume to make up for when using the pedal).

3) Work on creating smooth, even sustain using the pedal. Think holding your finger down on an organ. The note stays at the same volume... that's what you're trying to emulate. You'll pick the string with the pedal only at 30% (or thereabouts, find your preferred spot). It will feel weird at first, but make it a habit since that foot position will become your new normal.

So, pick the string. As it naturally decays, you'll step on the pedal at whatever rate it takes to 'make up' for the lost volume. The sound coming out of your amp will remain at a constaint volume. Before picking the next note, instantly pull it back to starting postion. This is the hard part that needs the most attention. So your foot will maybe be moving up and down quite a bit as you play, but the volume level coming out your amp should be even -- done correctly, the casual listener would never guess there was a volume pedal involved at all because it was used so deftly and evenly.

After a month of work, consciously developing technique, this will become involuntary. Your brain will know what it wants to hear and the foot will move without any conscious thought. You don't have to use this technique all the time, it's just an important arrow to have in your quiver.

The Electo Harmonix C9 pedal (and other pedals in the 9-series) adds alot of Sustain.
The B3-ish sound they emulate would sound great on your version of Candyman.
Several music stores sell them with full refund policy.

Hi Tucker, thank you for the help. I've seen some tutorials around for volume pedal beginners, but your description is very comprehensive and makes sense.

Question, what always comes up when I try this technique is it just doesn't seem to work with the style that I arrange songs in. I'll play a chord and while that chord is ringing, I'll play the vocal melody line on other strings. Then move to the next chord/measure and vocal line on top of that etc. What seems to happen is while I'm pushing the volume pedal up to sustain the chord, the vocal melody notes I'm plucking are now super loud. Does this make sense? I've tried working with this by playing the vocal melody with a much lighter touch than I play the chords but it doesn't seem to work well. Any thoughts?

If you're mixing melody over backing at the same time and needing that to sustain for a very long time, it would have to come down to varying your right hand 'touch.' The melody strings would have to be plucked with less force as the chord that was picked much earlier was sustained.

But, it sounds like you've tried this and it isn't working. You might be in a playing situation there where the pedal couldn't solve what you're after. Still, you can play with it. I think you'll find that you only need a little bit of pedal-squeeze to get the chord to hang on, a small enough change that it might not then be too loud for your melody line to sit at the right volume, or at least in an acceptable range.

Dennis, I don’t use it with the pedal steel because the expression pedal can do what I want. I use it with my Remington 8 lap steel to play over chords.

Robert, when you say 'expression pedal,' is that another word for volume pedal? I've heard a volume pedal described that way, since it's how it's generally used in steel playing.

Yes, expression pedal equals volume pedal.

If your volume pedal has a Pot in it. Check the degree amount of travel the shaft has. I cut the string contact diameter down in one of my pedals and it made a big difference. Originally the pot shaft only traveled 180 degrees, It now turns 270+ degrees. Now I can turn the volume on amp to 9+ and give me a better sustain to my guitar using the volume pedal for longer fills.
Good Luck and Happy Steelin.

Robert Murphy wrote:Yes, expression pedal equals volume pedal.

With respect, a "Volume" Pedal contains a pot (or equivalent variable-resistor-type of component) in series with the output of the instrument, and governs the strength of the signal that is ultimately delivered to the Amplifier through the 'output' jack of the Pedal. The Volume Pedal therefore has an Input Jack and an Output Jack in order to be placed in series between the instrument and the amplifier.

An "Expression" Pedal (in the true sense of the terminology) usually also contains a pot, but in this instance the variable resistance of the pot is used to produce a variable Control Voltage from the 'static' voltage that is transmitted TO the Pedal FROM the Amplifier (or Effects Unit).

This variable Control Voltage is then transmitted BACK to the Amplifier (or Effects Unit) where it is then analysed as a percentage against the known static voltage and the resultant ratio used to then trigger the modification of a condition or parameter in a circuit within the Amplifier or Effects Unit.

This backwards-and-forwards of voltage transmission is usually accomplished via the ONE SINGLE (stereo) cable or jack that is attached to the Expression Pedal.
At NO point is the cable from the instrument actually plugged into the Expression Pedal.

Under certain (programmable) conditions, yes, one could use the variable Control Voltage output from the Expression Pedal to be assigned to the output VOLUME of the Amplifier or Effects Unit, but certainly NOT in the way that most pedal steelers traditionally use and set up a true Volume Pedal....

Just a small (?) pedantic rant about correct terminology before someone buys an Expression Pedal and tries to use it as a series-connected Volume Pedal for their Steel Guitar. ....It WON'T work....

Respectfully,
Peter

Unless I missed it (turns out I did on a re-read), nobody has mentioned you need a guitar that sustains well in itself.. before you use volume pedal or electronics to help. It sure makes the job easier.

I've owned guitars (not naming names, but well-respected, pro-level instruments) that just required a lot of 'work', especially in higher registers, to get good sustain. Not every guitar has 'it'.

I've heard it said that Buddy Emmons would walk up to a pedal steel and strum the strings.
He would grab one of the legs and if he could feel the vibrations in the leg, he deemed it to be a good guitar.
Erv

I've heard that story also Erv... I think there's something to it. I'm not certainly not BE, but I can tell a lot about how good a guitar is (for me) by playing it unplugged.

If I were feeling pedantic I would call the thing under your right foot the sustain pedal, as its primary function is to enhance the natural sustain of the instrument on a phrase-by-phrase basis.

Volume (the overall subjective loudness of your instrument) is set on the amp.

Pete Burak wrote:The Electo Harmonix C9 pedal (and other pedals in the 9-series) adds alot of Sustain.
The B3-ish sound they emulate would sound great on your version of Candyman.
Several music stores sell them with full refund policy.

Thanks for the info Pete. I watched a vid on the C9 and it did appear to introduce an almost infinite sustain...especially impressive was the "Shimmer" preset. Not quite sure though if that would introduce sustain into the dry or just wet organ effect output.

There's definitely a few options out there to try, in fact, my first one just arrived yesterday. My Bill Lawrence L712 wide mount humbucker. I'm planning to try and wire in a coil tap split so I can have the best of both worlds. Oddly enough, the wiring diagrams on the Lawrence site don't cover this 3 wire output configuration, but I luckily found a SGF thread on how to do this.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... d67a0a3a94

Sometimes when I want to try a new pickup, I make a little mounting platform out of blocks of foam and/or whatever materials I have on hand, and use alligator clips from the pickup leads to a guitar cord to an amp.
You can put the pickup above the strings and hear how it sounds in a few different positions, before going through the entire pickup replacement procedure.

Also, did you see the Thread in the New Products forum called Infinite Sustain for Steel Guitars?

I can't emphasize enough about the importance of what Tucker said in his post. I've had players (even pros) tell me that a certain brand of guitar is necessary for really good sustain. And while some guitars do have more inherent sustain than others, I (and many other players) believe it's a falsehood that you can't get very good sustain on most any guitar with the proper playing techniques and amp settings.

In my over 50 years of playing, I've seen a ton of players ditch perfectly good equipment when their real problem was that they never learned to properly use what they already had. They buy and buy, while at the same time eventually acquiring those essential skills. Then, years (or decades) later, when they finally get the ability to make "that sound", they come to the conclusion that it was their last purchase that made it possible.

Nope. They just finally really learned how to play.

Ian Rae wrote:If I were feeling pedantic I would call the thing under your right foot the sustain pedal, as its primary function is to enhance the natural sustain of the instrument on a phrase-by-phrase basis.

Volume (the overall subjective loudness of your instrument) is set on the amp.

I agree.

(After I looked up the word "pedantic"!)

Pete Burak wrote:Sometimes when I want to try a new pickup, I make a little mounting platform out of blocks of foam and/or whatever materials I have on hand, and use alligator clips from the pickup leads to a guitar cord to an amp.
You can put the pickup above the strings and hear how it sounds in a few different positions, before going through the entire pickup replacement procedure.

Also, did you see the Thread in the New Products forum called Infinite Sustain for Steel Guitars?

That's a great idea, I never thought of that! I'm currently working to disconnect the stock PU, but will definitely give both an A/B test the way you described before I go much further. This is also a great way to test if my humbucker coil tap switch circuit is working correctly before pulling the strings and doing a final installation.

Also, I have a tone control and switch on my G2 and fortunately it's connected to the PU with a quick connect plug. If my A/B test shows the humbucker is the way I want to go it will take minimal soldering to tie into the existing quick connect plug.

Wasn't aware of the infinite sustain thread, just checked it out. Interesting device, though I didn't see him demo 3 or 4 string chords...and the 6 string guitar width size with a cord sticking out the back didn't impress me.

Thanks Pete

Lee Baucum wrote:

Ian Rae wrote:If I were feeling pedantic I would call the thing under your right foot the sustain pedal, as its primary function is to enhance the natural sustain of the instrument on a phrase-by-phrase basis.

Volume (the overall subjective loudness of your instrument) is set on the amp.

I agree.

(After I looked up the word "pedantic"!)

"Pedantic" is the angle that you hold your foot....

I'm surprised Lee didn't know that

Ian Rae wrote:I'm surprised Lee didn't know that

My wife is the wordsmith in our family!

If someone had to look up 'pedantic' (which would be a lot of people), good news: they probably wouldn't have anyone accusing them of being pedantic.

Meanwhile, if someone had to look up 'illiterate,' they probably would have... wait... they couldn't look it up. Never mind.

Wanted to give an update...hope I'm not being too pedantic

Finished installing the L712 today. Was also able to successfully wire up a coil tap switch. This beast is very different than the stock Mullen single coil I've been using the past 3 years. In humbucker mode it's an extremely round and full tone. This will take some playing with to figure the best way to process as the single coil based patches I've been using on my Line6 PodXT are not happy about this new monstrous input signal

Ironically, I love it in single coil mode best so far. To my ears the L712 has the midrange cut way back while the low and high frequencies really stand out. This gives it what I can only describe as a "transparent" characteristic that is great for playing without picks. If anything, it can get a little too trebly, but that's what the Mullen tone circuit is there to tame.

As far as sustain and how the L712 responds to compression goes, I've got a lot of testing to do. While I haven't decided to buy a Cali76 Stacked, I do have 2 compressors I can test with in series (one in the PodXT and another on the inputs of my Tascam DP24 mixer/recorder).

Anyway, now I have a 2nd toggle for the coil tap added to the original Mullen tone circuit of 1 toggle and tone control. Integrating the new coil tap toggle and humbucker to the existing Mullen tone circuit and output jack was very easy since they had it connected to the original pickup with a simple 2 wire plug.

Here's my G2's new look:



If anyone is curious, I followed the advice given in this thread from a few years ago on how to split coil an L710. https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... d67a0a3a94

My experience is some guitars do have more sustain the others for whatever reason.
I was playing brand X universal 12 in the 90s for a band that was popular enough we could afford a sound man. Five years into playing with this band I switched to Fessenden SD12 universal. Unsolicited the sound man commented on how much more sustain the new guitar had. This corroborated what I was hearing.