The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 1:07 pm**

I define "That Sound" is the tone of a great Emmons p/p guitar not any other brand. Although I've heard some other good sounding all-pull guitars, they didn't have that distinctive Emmons sound. They have their own distinctive sound. This sound that we talk about here is in the guitar not the hands. That's what makes it the distinctive Emmons sound. There's a lot you can do with your hands for sure but this sound is different to my ears than what you can get with your hands. It's a metallic (or metal like) sound that has incredible highs and the clearest of lows I've ever heard. I'm playing one now that I bought in 96 that had been sitting in a garage for years and I took it right out to the gig only wipiing the black filth off. The strings were pitted and breaking everywhere but that guitar had the tone with all of that filth! I wonder if anybody here could tell which guitar is which blindfolded letting someone else play it?[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 09 June 2003 at 02:18 PM.]

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 1:59 pm**

Frank Parish, I've never agreed with you more. But the Emmons guitars have "That quality" way up high on the neck where almost all other guitars get "zingy". Emmons still has quality way up high.
Anyway, yes Peter, I can get "That sound" back on any Emmons.
Here's the story:
I got an Emmons trade in once that sounded horrible, no matter what I did to it, Ron Lashly called me about something else so at the end of the conversation I told him about this "Horrible sounding P-P". He said "Don't touch it, I'll be there in two weeks". I mixed the guitar in with several other Emmons P-P steels, he walked in the front door of the store, didn't plug any guitars in, strumed all of them and said, "this one , right?" I replied, yes,you found it, now what? He told me what to do to it (after I told him he was nuts), and wham! He was correct! The guitar was incredible. I thanked him profusly and was a much smarter guy with these great guitars from then on.

After this episode, I became a beliver in that any P-P steel guitar can be totally incredible with the correct adjustments, maintenance and care.

------> There is only one tone legend, so far and I don't see another one on the horizon yet.

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 06:19 PM.]

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 2:09 pm**

Carl Dixon, if you had 14.5 K pickups on ANY guitar, it had to be pretty bad, Why did it take you so long to figure that one out?(ha ha!) This is where Emmons guitars got their treble reputation in the early years. These pickups were just a fad of the times. All great(single coil) sounding guitars have heavier wound pick ups than this, except Bigsby, but Paul used a total different design.

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 2:21 pm**

<img src=http://home.hvc.rr.com/jsganz/Wrap-around.jpg>

<img src=http://home.hvc.rr.com/jsganz/BoltOn.jpg>

<img src=http://home.hvc.rr.com/jsganz/CutTail.jpg>
[This message was edited by Jay Ganz on 09 June 2003 at 03:24 PM.]

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 3:44 pm**

I must agree with Bobbe, after playing all pull guitars for 31 years, my ears finally heard what a push pull is all about. By the way Jay, I am drooling more than my German Shepherd Otto does at dinner over your great pictures!

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www.pedalsteel.net

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 4:43 pm**

That story posted by Bobbe regarding Ron trying each guitar and looking for the "one" special that didnt have that so called "sound" was told to me by Ron,so that is The
Rest Of The Story.

Bobbe,,you remember Fred Trogden ? sure you
do and he remembered you as well..Fred built
my 69 PP from scratch. Serial # 1399. and it
has "that sound" you betcha. 20.000 Ohms on both necks. It sounded better than my Bigsby.

Bobbe speaketh the truth.

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 09 June 2003 at 05:44 PM.]

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 5:33 pm**

Hmmmmmm? We sure got a lotta people saying that "nothing sounds as good as an old p/p".

Then, of course, there was that statement by that guy (that happens to have his name on the front of every one) who said even he has a hard time telling by listening whether or not it's a p/p.

So....I just naturally get to wonderin' (maybe somebody will "enlighten" me). You see, if any guitar was that far, head and shoulders, above the rest, then durn near every "pro" would be playin' one...wouldn't they? But from what I see at concerts, steel shows, and on TV, I don't think that's the case.

Maybe one of you can tell me why?

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 6:03 pm**

I've owned a handful of all pull guitars, but I keep going back to my 71 rosewood p/p. Even with 14.5 k ohm pickups, it sounded better than any all pull I've ever owned. It's away being completely restored and I can't wait to get it back. I was starting to go through withdrawals until my dobro arrived the other day.

Hopefully it will keep me from going into DT's until the Emmons is done

I know there are plenty of people out there who prefer a more modern guitar, and that's ok, but, I'll stick with my old Emmons. It's never turned on me.

[This message was edited by David Mullis on 09 June 2003 at 07:05 PM.]

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 6:32 pm**

Donny, At one time a lot of the big players did play one. Like, Emmons, Rugg, Myrick, Maness,Hughey,Wallace,Jernigan,Seymour, and others. Can't explain why they would change. They must have had a weak moment.

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1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 6:42 pm**

Jay, you are soooooooooooo bad!!
Jerry

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 7:55 pm**

Bruce, Larry Petree of Bakersfield also told me that Jay Dee would come by his place and strum an unplugged P/P and could tell whether "that" was in there or not.

Posted: **9 Jun 2003 9:32 pm**

Donny wrote

You see, if any guitar was that far, head and shoulders, above the rest, then durn near every "pro" would be playin' one...wouldn't they?

I tend to agree.

I've played the p/p's (I assume everyone is talking about Emmons p/p's). They are VERY nice guitars, and I wish I had one. All it takes is money I guess. But for day to day playing, what with amps and FX and stuff, I decided to buy an all pull modern Mullen. That guitar had the positive and smooth pedal "feel" I wanted. One smooooth puppy! - SOLD -

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Mullen (See! No "S") D-10 
<a href=http://www.davidhorch.com/music>Photo page</a>

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 5:14 am**

"So....I just naturally get to wonderin' (maybe somebody will "enlighten" me). You see, if any guitar was that far, head and shoulders, above the rest, then durn near every "pro" would be playin' one...wouldn't they? But from what I see at concerts, steel shows, and on TV, I don't think that's the case."
The closest answer to that question was provided by Dave Horch"But for day to day playing, what with amps and FX and stuff, I decided to buy an all pull modern Mullen. That guitar had the positive and smooth pedal "feel" I wanted. One smooooth puppy!" The new and the shiny win out quite often with instrument buyers (and many other objects too). In my perfect imagined world I would own a P/P and an all-pull. The all-pull would be for gigs when tone wasn't so crucial and weight and tuning ability were. But since I'm a full-time player, I'll never be able to afford both.

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 5:30 am**

Thanks for those Great Pictures, Jay!!!
Now the obvious question is:
Is there a big difference it tone?
Which is most desireable?

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 7:11 am**

If Emmons guitars P-P are so great, why isn't everyone playing one? This is like saying, "If Rolls Royce is so great, why isn't everyone driving one?" .[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 10 June 2003 at 08:13 AM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 06:21 PM.]

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 7:16 am**

Jay Dee would come by his place and strum an unplugged P/P and could tell whether "that" was in there or not.

That is a way you can test steels for overtone stability. You strum the strings with no amp and listen for how long it takes for the fundamentals to die out and then you hear the upper partials start to cascade upward. On a PP this does not happen. The fundamentals and overtones remain consistent all the way to the final decay. Weird thing is that Franklins have the same quality of stability although they have a different over all sound. I think that is why Franklins record so well. Very few all pull guitars have the
overtone/fundamental stability of the old Emmons.

Bob

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 7:53 am**

Right, Bob
That's why both guitars lay so nicely on a track with other instruments. No slam on Zum, but that's a problem I always had with mine. A couple of engineers told me that the Zum invaded other tracks' space much more than the Emmons and they had to work much harder to make it sound right. I am finding that my Fessy is similar to the Emmons and Franklin in that regard. I have a session tonight with an engineer/producer with a very discerning ear, on a CD project that I started on the Emmons. I'll be interested to compare tracks once it's done. And, you're right -- all three guitars (Emmons/Franklin/Fessenden) have distinctly different sounds, but just seem to 'lay right' on a recording.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 8:01 am**

If Emmons P-P guitars AREN'T so great, why are most modern steels being compared to them, and why is everyone strivng to make an all pull that sounds 'just like a push pull'?

My guess why a LOT of pro's are not using P-P's now, would be that I'd say a good 75% or more of the new music is being recorded by one person now, and that person happens to play a Franklin, with B-L pickups, thru a Mesa preamp. The P-P doesn't exactly do the modern 'nashville' sound the way an all pull will do. To me the 'modern' sound has less upper midrange/lower treble sweetness that the Emmons does, instead has a bit of an uppper high end 'graininess' where the emmons tends to smooth this out a bit. (shobuds to my ears tend to exhibit this as well to some extent). To someoen who is more familiar with modern music than some of the classic steelguitar tones, the all pull may be closer to what they are think a 'steel guitar should sound like'.
I grew up listening to more clasic stuff (a lot of lloyd green stuff sounded great), but the tones that stick in my head from my childhood, are those from Buddy when he played on 'POP! Goes the Country!, Jay Dee's playing the backgroudn music for 'The Dukes of Hazzard', and Buddy Cage's playing with NRPS, add in hearing the countless Opry broadcasts, and the live performances on Austin City Limits and Nashville Now (70's and 80's), the tone stuck in my head is the push pull tone, and I was never happy until I had THAT tone...

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 9:58 am**

Gino,first of all 75% of all Nashville sessions aren't done by "one guy". And as far as I know, he's the only guy using Frankling guitars in town on recordings right now.(however two other guys own them) Many many sessions are being done on P-P guitars in Nashville .
There are hundreds of sessions a month done in Nashville, jingles,gospel, writer demos, custom sessions etc. I don't know of any Franklins being used on any of these sessions, but I do know of MANY players using the Emmons push-pull guitar. Name them? How about the most recorded player in Nashville, the guy that does the most sessions of all, Sonny Garrish? Emmons P-P.!!! Steve Hinson, Wayne Paul, Weldon Myrick,Bob Angelo,Jay Andrews,Bruce Bouton,Mike Daly,Mike Cass,Mike Duchett,Ron Elliott,Buddy Emmons,Keith Gaddis,Eddie Gossien,Doyle Grissom,Bob Hempker,Jim Hefferden,Tom Killen,Lynn Owslee,Robin Ruddy,Larry Sasser,Steve Wilkerson,Darrell Thatcher,Mike Sweeney,Mike Stidoff, Cal Sharp,Wanda Vic,Tim Sergeant,Jay Dee Maness(CA.), Tim Lusby,Tom Baughman, I could go on forever with the professional guys that play the Emmons guitars. Why don't they all? I think they do! I can name one or possibly two that play the guitar you mentioned Gino,and quite a few that still record with Sho-Bud.
Several folks don't realize how much recording is going on in this town. One guy wouldn't have time to even do five percent of it himself. The work horse of Nashville is still the Emmons push -pull, and all this seventeen years after the last one was built. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 06:23 PM.]

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 10:08 am**

Bobbe, this tone-enhancing procedure you mentioned, is this something you intend to keep to yourself? Am I being naive asking this question?

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 10:12 am**

Gino, after reading your post again, I realize you are totally off base on what you think is happening in Nashville, but I can understand this and don't blame you at all, I feel many folks don't know and believe what you are saying. The person you mentioned is THE high profile player,and he plays extremley well(as do many others:White, Buddy Emmons,Rugg,Myrick,Hicks,Garrish,and the list goes on) but you and everyone has to realize, Nashville is a big industry and much of it isn't very visible. There could be as many as two hundred sessions going on at one time in this town,(houses and all) including all kinds of sessions, all kinds of music,and so on. Many folks seem to be focused on Allen Jackson,the Judds,George Jones, Neal McCoy, Arron Tippin and so on and don't even start to see the big picture.
I can understand your not seeing how many Emmons P-P steels are being used here so don't take this as anything but an educational post. I'm only enlightening, I do appreciate your past patronage and you as a player, get out of PA. and come on down, you could work here, all the rest of us are!
Bobbe,

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 10:28 am**

Hans, It's not a "tone enhansing procedure", it's just how to get out what's in there. It's in there in all P-P Emmons guitars, but some slip into a state of "sleep" and things change from where they were manufactured/etc.
I have had many e-mails asking me about the "Secret".
First of all it's more than a secret, it's a total procedure. Something that Ron Lashly taught me twenty years ago when I first became an Emmons dealer. This is also my trade/craft, to show and tell would be detrimental to my income. All guitars I sell are "RIGHT", and all guitars I repair are "RIGHT". Possibly, one day soon I'll put out a video on this subject before I retire,
The tone (timbre) of the P-P guitar is slightly adjustable! No other guitr is. This alone makes it a very desirable instrument.
It can be "Tone tuned" to certain custom situations or jobs. For different players, different ears. Truly the best of all worlds, IF you know what you are doing with it.

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 10:31 am**

bOb, if I'm over loading your hard drive, I'll pursue this elsewhere,

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 10:39 am**

Bobbe,
I appreciate your mentioning of a fact I obviously overlooked. I guess a better way of putting it, would have been "75% of what is being played on top 40 country radio/CMT" of course that would be the Allan Jacksons, Toby Keith etc.
The sad thing is, I'm sure I"m not the only musician who isn't hearing the bulk of what is coming out, but am stuck either listening to what the ClearChannel's and Gaylords are force feeding us up here, or I have to use the internet to find out on my own what else is out there (I'd most likely be pleasantly surprised to hear that yes, indeed there IS country music still alive, and not just the candy-coated-mindless-garbage they are passing off as country these days in the mass media). What is truely sad is that there are the masses of people that may have never had the opportunity to turn on to prime time TV to see shows like Pop goes the country, or Hee Haw, or evne Barbara Mandrell's show, and hear, and see real country, and hear they way a steel guitar should sound. All they know as country music is what is being pumped through the major airwaves, and the only thing they know about steel guitar is what they hear on this mass produced stuff. In no way am I belitteling Paul Franklin's playing, I think he's an incredible player, and have the utmost respect for him, but the fact that the recorded tone he has may not be traditional, I would put that blame on the producers etc. IN another post someone posted a clip of a bootleg of him playing with Drie Straits, and the tone on that clip is GREAT... doesn't sound ANYTHING like what you hear on the radio, however the same player, same instrument etc are used... that tells me that the producers for the masses are doing their job.
Thanks again for enlightening me that there is MUCH MUCH more going on in Nashville than what is commonly known! -- I will stand behind my statemnt though that "If the Push pull ISN"T great, why is everyone trying to make a guitar that sounds like one... and why are they comparing every guitar to one..." -- has to be something if the Emmons is THE guitar that all others are judged by. I just know I wanted one because the tone that I had in my head that I heard grwing up came from an Emmons, so why not get the right tool for the job.... hey you can put big tires on an El Camino, and it will look 'almost exactly like a truck'... doesn't mean the ElCamino can go off roadin' or can haul a ton of gravel... right tool for the job...

I wonder if the reason behind a good number of people using all pull guitars on the road has more to do with the fact that most steelers would have to maintain their own instruments on the road, and they can be set up a heck of a lot faster if something fails? Or is it more of a thing like 'you dont dig out the good china and silverware to eat TV dinners on?' and that the push pull hans't been made in close to 20 years they'd feel worse if something happend to a classic, vintage instrument vs. one that is more easily replaceable (same reason why the folks that will record with a '54 tele thru a tweed fender, yet tour with a '2003 tele thru a peavey bandit' type thing)

Posted: **10 Jun 2003 12:30 pm**

I think you have it figured out and well understood Gino, now , get down here and play some steel with the rest of us!
I also agree with you about many steel players leaving the P-P under the bed because it is getting so rare and expensive,I myself am guilty of this quite often, I have an old junky P-P and also a newer LeGrande, along with my collection of junkys to play when I feel the P-P may be in danger of "lost by airline" or "crush by bus".
I have sold many steel guitars to folks that would never part with their P-P but also think too much of it to play on a "assembly line job". After all, most dancers and screamers don't care anything about what you play, what tone you get or how easy your pedals push. So, play anything until that important session or TV show comes along. Then, get under the bed and pull out the heavy artillery, you know, the LONG blade!

The Steel Guitar Forum

Do All Emmon's Push Pull have "that sound?"