The Steel Guitar Forum

If we're talking professionalism, how come all the big bands and orchestras have music stands?
Erv

Erv, I loved the big bands! I played armpit Guitar in our High School Jazz band... But I never really learned to read music. I faked it by asking the Piano player to demonstrate the notes, and I just faked the chords by ear... alot of Bb and Eb stuff.

Big Band Brass, Reed and other Orchestral instruments all require reading music and yes they are professional. It would be crazy to expect 6 or more trumpets, trombones and sax to all just know the songs and play their harmony and melody lines by ear... (although small dixieland bands do this and it sometimes gets muddled to my ear)

However I have not seen too many steel guitars in a big band or orchestra setting. Not many, but they would have to use charts and the Composer/arranger would be hard pressed to write specific lines for them. So it would be Chord charts and lots of rests with an occasional "SOLO"

All the composer/arranger would have to do is hand them a copy of the music, like the other musicians in the band.
A musician who can't read music is like a trucker who doesn't know how to shift gears.
Erv

Erv Niehaus wrote:A musician who can't read music is like a trucker who doesn't know how to shift gears.

Can't help but wonder what Paul McCartney might say about that, Erv. He seems to have done okay for himself.

(Besides, lotsa modern rigs are equipped with automatics nowadays.)

Jack,
I'm not much of a Beatles fan.
They wrote some intereting songs but I never cared much for their "music".
Buddy Emmons didn't do too bad for himself either, although he did say at one time, that he missed a lot of opportunities because he couldn't read music.
Erv

I'm not sure what the purpose or premise of this topic is, its a tool, if we need it we should use it, if we don't then don't use it.

Can he even see the chart at that distance?

Is there even such a thing as Pedal Steel Specific Sheet Music? Yes I know there is tablature, but actual lines and staff notation?

I guess if someone wanted to they could take the time to learn piano (Right Hand) parts exactly as written on pedal steel, But for both Bass and treble clef as a piano player plays with both hands would not be possible or desirable because the beauty of the pedal steel is sliding and the bending of notes while other notes sustain, and all that would not be written for other instruments.

But getting back to the original topic...

Even if a Pro steel guitarist reads music and uses a Music stand to rehearse and then memorize the arrangement, I still think it looks tacky to show up at the gig with a big black music stand in front of his steel guitar blocking his hands and face from view.

My take - the usage of notated music, of any kind regardless of whether on a music stand, electronic pad, laptop, or whatever else might be available, is appropriate or not heavily subject to the context of the performance.

For the most part, orchestras either professional or not, use notated music - generally on physical music stands. Same for big bands - all this has already been noted. Pit bands generally use notated music. I've done some, and I get a book before rehearsals start. Most jazz musicians I see at gigs - there's a Real Book on a stand, or lately I sometimes see an electronic pad. I think some type of notated music is becoming more prevalent on what are becoming increasingly casual gigs with floating ensemble members. In these types of situations, I don't think it's "tacky". In fact when playing challenging music where you might be called, on a moment's notice, to play something you don't know cold in front of an audience, it would sort of be ridiculous not to have some type of music in front of you.

A show band on a show stage playing the same, relatively limited set of material over and over on a professional basis, e.g., on the road, rarely has anything sitting in front of them. It would detract from the "show" and give people the impression they are not professional, even though they are.

I have used music stands sometimes, but these days I generally prefer a 9" Android pad that I can clamp to the back right leg of my steel (it's crazy, if I clamp it to the back left leg, it causes the leg to unscrew from gravity going against the screw-in direction). Or if I'm playing just guitar, it clamps to my mic stand. It's small and extremely unobtrusive.

In a regular band situation, I don't use the pad much - typically I just have a song list with keys with maybe a single line for each song sketching out its arrangement - it's mostly useful when the singer decides to change the arrangement mid-stream, which happens. But when I'm in a real fluid situation where nobody knows what the hell is going on, I also keep a lot of song charts which I can quickly pull up if needed. Or if I'm asked to sing a song to which I don't know the lyrics, it's damn useful.

I have never used tablature of any kind on a gig. In fact, I rarely use tab at all. If you [editorial you] are trying to figure out where to put your hands and fingers on the guitar while performing before an audience, you're cooked. But a chord/number chart, lead sheet, or something like that can be very useful if you if you're in unfamiliar territory. I'd rather be reading a chart and have it sound good than be a "deer in the headlights" and sound bad, and that goes for the people I work with also.

Dom Franco wrote:...But getting back to the original topic...

Even if a Pro steel guitarist reads music and uses a Music stand to rehearse and then memorize the arrangement, I still think it looks tacky to show up at the gig with a big black music stand in front of his steel guitar blocking his hands and face from view.

Is this really just an aesthetic question then? As many of the responses have noted here, there are practical reasons why a music stand on stage is necessary or at least a very good idea in certain situations. The quality of the music should always be the primary focus IMO, aesthetics is secondary.

HaHa! I just realized that in my avatar picture I am looking at a GOO chart written by Jimmy Capps, while backing Jeannie Seely on an unrehearsed gig.

So yep, there is proof that I am not a professional, just a weekend hack picker. (True) However, she was the star, the audience loved her, and no one complained about my playing (she complimented me) to the chart because that’s the way we usually do these things.

To the point some other guys’ made, if I was in her road band, the tunes probably would be memorized and even tighter than unrehearsed charts, which were far better than no charts.

YMMV

Ian Worley wrote: The quality of the music should always be the primary focus IMO, aesthetics is secondary.

Thats ridiculous Ian, how we look is far more important that how we play ! Hey how about this, I'll go first.

Heads-up:

I use an Ipad now and then for a chart, I'm giving everyone advance notice. If that offends anyone or they think I am a lessor player, please feel free to NOT come to any gigs or shows I might be playing. I am not a PC musician, I am a paid UN-Professional.

It is entirely dependent upon the gig.

I'f I'm in the orchestra pit reading a 'legit' show then committing the entire guitar-book to memory would be a pointless exercise. You're surrounded by other players all reading their parts so 'appearances' are not a factor.

When I used to do the Medora Musical (a two-hour show where the band is in full view of the audience) I made a real effort to get 'off book' as quickly as possible. The seven-shows-a-week schedule allowed me to achieve this by the middle of the first week.

If, however, your work is confined to playing with the same guys (an the same tunes) on a regular basis, then I'd suggest that that demands a commitment to present a cohesive and polished look in front of your crowd. Learn the tunes at rehearsal (or on your own time) and you'll come over as a polished ensemble.

In reply to Dom's original post, there is visual evidence that Elvis did indeed sometimes depend upon a scruffy sheet of paper to (presumably)save him the trouble of learning a lyric. It looked dreadful in my opinion but, then, I always felt that Presley should never have been lamely covering other people's hits with the vast catalogue he had at his disposal.

This was during his final years on stage and there's the sense that he'd lost interest in it all to some extent.

Elvis' first love was gospel music.
He called all the other stuff "bubble gum" music.
Erv

Ian Worley wrote:
The quality of the music should always be the primary focus IMO, aesthetics is secondary.



Thats ridiculous Ian, how we look is far more important than how we play

Erv Niehaus wrote:A musician who can't read music is like a trucker who doesn't know how to shift gears.

I disagree.

Are you a truck driver?
Erv

Tony Prior wrote:Thats ridiculous Ian, how we look is far more important that how we play !

That's why steel players get all the chicks

Something maybe worth a mention... If you ever find yourself suddenly with an opportunity to sit in with a group that you'd like to be playing with, chances are you won't know the song/arrangement, you won't know when and where people are taking their breaks and fills, and there most certainly won't be any sheet music for you to read. So, worst case scenario. Go!

Last night, first gig ( outdoors ) in 3 months. We had 2 new players with us, you are just gonna have to trust me that they are both crazy good, longtime players, one was previously a Nashville Road player with a MAJOR touring artist. I wrote maybe half dozen charts for songs on our set list for them. We pulled off those songs like we rehearsed them 100 times. The charts were not just a chord chart but the arrangements as well. This band is a crossover band , not your 7pm to 10PM Legion Dance band. we refer to it as Jones to Stones or Haggard to Hendrix.

A 5 piece band with 2 new players who never played our set list and ZERO rehearsal. Experienced players do whatever it takes to get it done.

Sometimes the music is more important than what some peoples eyes see.

Me, ? I've been doing this like many here for 5 decades, I am NOT above pulling out a chart and putting it on a stand or Ipad , I'm more about playing music correctly. I've never had the luxury of regular rehearsals . Sometimes I didn't even have more than an hours notice for a fill in gig.

I hope to become a professional one day but I'm running out of time ! Heck, memorization ? I'm just glad I remember my way home now !

Toni,
Thanks for your input.
I totally agree!
Erv

I can shift gears but I just can’t drive the truck.

Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?
Erv

Sometimes the music is more important than what some peoples eyes see.

Agreed, but not in this day and age..

Back when I was playing a lot of the same music I listened to, charts were unnecessary. Now, I hardly ever play music on my personal hit parade. So I listen and chart at home for practice, which helps for memorization. Occasionally the rest of the band shows up for rehearsal having practiced the same version of the song I have done. By showtime, only the keyboard player, who does his intros sight-reading, is the one with charts. But this is a band that rehearses 2-3 times for every gig. Not exactly a pro schedule!

The one unrehearsed uncharted gig I have done in the last 5 years was also the most enjoyable experience of that time period. It was with a group of players I knew could be trusted to listen to each other, make eye contact for cues, and play and sing their butts off.

When pro level bands go on tour, a lot of them have pretty intense rehearsal schedules before they hit the road. It’s a show, and it is a lot of work making things appear spontaneous, energetic, and keeping it flowing smoothly. I’m sure there are charts or notes at those rehearsals.