The Steel Guitar Forum

Joachim Kettner wrote:From what I've read they had bass players on their records, Ian.

I'm sure you're right, Joachim, just no-one you would think of as a regular member of the band.

I never got paid more on live gigs for doubling...

...but I probably got the job because I doubled..

...that's probably what the other steel players said anyway...

SH

Here's an interesting take on a (symphony) musician's doubling...

Each additional instrument I bring to the gig represents a significant financial investment on my part: purchase, maintenance, and insurance, not to mention high costs in past and continuing study of each instrument.
Each instrument—even two instruments in the same family, like oboe and English horn—requires separate study, practice, and effort. The money I earn isn’t really about the time I spend at the gig. It’s about the thousands of hours I’ve spent becoming the musician that can do what is required. If I’m playing two instruments on the gig, then that’s a double helping of preparation I’ve put in.
Doubling is very much a money-saving practice for those who hire musicians. I’ll happily play four instruments for 145% of scale, and a smart contractor will happily pay that rather than the 400% of scale that it would cost to hire four separate musicians.

Do you think that us "gigging" musicians could apply most of these issues to our own dilemma?

Just for the record, I never got doubling scale for playing two instruments either - it was called "living in the real world...."

One of my keyboard-playing buddies worked with a band for 8-10 years doubling bass lines on his Nord. I'm pretty sure they split the proceeds equally. He's a real good player, it sounded just fine - and that made the project economically feasible.

My current primary band is the first pedal steel gig where I don't double/triple on other instruments, for which I never got paid extra. Playing just steel feels like a rare luxury. But on the other hand, I've always been a guitar player - so ironically, not showing up to a gig with a guitar feels a little strange.

Ian Rae wrote:The real question is whether anyone wants to play in or listen to a band with no bass player.

The Doors did OK, as did the Cramps and the White Stripes to name but a few.

Might there be a difference between switching between two instruments, as needed, vs being expected to cover the parts of two instruments simultaneously?

I know the former is quite common. Many of us can switch from, say, steel guitar to regular guitar, depending upon what the song calls for.

But, what about the musician who is expected to cover the parts for two instruments on all songs?

Yes, there's a difference between switching instruments and trying to sound as though you're playing two at once!

In my band sometimes the bass player switches to acoustic 6-string and I switch to fretless bass, which makes a nice contrast, but no-one's trying to cover two parts.

Lee Baucum wrote:Might there be a difference between switching between two instruments, as needed, vs being expected to cover the parts of two instruments simultaneously?

That is a very succinct way of putting it, and a good argument for demanding higher pay. But...

Another question underlying this discussion is, how would a new or fill-in player know if he is getting more than a single band member’s pay? There really is no reason for anyone but the band leader to know how much anyone is getting paid. We all would like to know, and maybe we even have a good idea when we’re playing a gig that should pay a bit more than the average club. If I’m happy with my pay, I generally don’t care enough to ask what went into anybody else’s pocket.

So sure, go ahead and ask for time and a half. You just may never know how much that actually is.

Which means we all owe it to ourselves to dig into the part of music that Van Morrison says he detests--the music BUSINESS-- and figure out what our work is worth, taking into account all the variables(like singing, doubling, providing sound reinforcement,and related lifting of barges and toting of bales),determining your break-even point,and then sticking to it....After all, if you're paying to play, you've just made an extremely negative statement about what YOUR work is worth.

I've played in bands a couple of times that had keyboard players that covered the Bass lines. They have always been exceptional musicians and sounded great. None of them asked for more money. It would definitely have been reasonable if they would have, but they didn't mind doing it and were happy that everyone was able to make more money, bless their hearts.

this is a pretty funny thread. Some previous threads say we don't have any gigs, then we have this thread where a few are suggesting they won't play double duty gigs for various reasons and even suggest we don't earn enough money to play double duty.

I'm just saying it out loud. I play Single or Double,some are single, some are double, it just depends who calls and what the venue is.

If I play double its because " I WANT TO ".

Sometimes I even front songs on vocal, so maybe I'm doing TRIPLE duty.

I don't make a million bucks but I never go home with an empty pocket.

So, what are we expecting when we pay 4 grand for a Steel another grand for an amp, another grand for a nice Tele etc...

What are you guys expecting ?

I just want the phone to ring, thats my expectation


and it does...

It is a funny thread, because it's about more than one thing. If I'm playing for fun or very little money I don't care. In a serious commercial situation where someone may be looking to turn a profit from my efforts, then I do.

After years of playing steel at a theme park, Herby Wallace was told he had to audition to get his job back. He was also asked what other instruments he played.
He didn't get his old job back.
A comedian was once asked if he could sing or dance. He replied; if you're hiring a chef, would you ask if they could farm?

When I moved to Nashville in 72, the Bass players opened the show singing and performing the M C task of entertaining the crowd. When the star came on stage they continued playing and singing background harmony parts. And for most band players, driving the bus (as a relief driver) was usually expected. Some band gigs, as in the Mel Tillis band, would also band lead dealing with the management requests and handle inventory for merchandise. On some gigs they made an extra 25 to 50 bucks more for taking on so much and sometimes not, depending on the artist. If you played bass and wanted the work?

I will tell you a true story....I was a kid in 72 so letting a 17 year old drive a bus was never asked of me...In my early 20's when I took the Tillis gig, I was told I would need to drive....Keep in mind the Eagle bus is very expensive to repair...I used every excuse to get out of the task. The driver was not having it...Basically he said I was going to learn how to drive....I was determined not to stay tired all the time due to the lack of sleep relief drivers often face before the show... I wanted to focus only on my playing career....

So, I decided to play dumb as the driver began teaching me what to do. He had me go thru the gears - with each gear I intentionally ground them hard, acting nervous, as he would scream "Stop" I kept on grinding saying "I got it"....After my willingness to try - his couple of teaching tries - I was never asked to learn again .... At the end of the day he was responsible for maintaining the bus at the lowest cost....I didn't care if he thought I was a dumb#$% or even if I lost the gig over that issue... I knew drawing a line in the sand saying no "I will not do this" or saying "I want more money would get me replaced" and that would spread through other road gigs....In this case I found a way around being perceived as someone who thought they were above what others willingly do for the same gig.
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Now it’s an even funnier thread!

Back to the keyboard bass thing. It’s NOT the same as singing backups and playing, or playing one instrument on one song and a different one on another. I’ve never been in a band where I wasn’t expected to sing. For guitarists, it’s more like being asked to play a Chapman stick on every song.

Funny how we expect that kind of skill from keyboard players. Yeah, it’s just stride piano with midi? Nope.

The idea behind hiring the double duty keyboard guy is to save money and make crappy-paying gigs more lucrative for everyone. So it’s a choice the player makes too. First, you’re joining a band that’s pinching pennies. Second, it’s a band with no bass player. Third, you are not going to get double pay. Maybe ask for a 20% premium - I think it’s a reasonable request - but feel lucky if you get it. Like Paul said, take the bus driving gig or take a chance on not getting the gig.[/i]

First gig I got playing pedal steel, I also needed to carry an acoustic/electric, a solidbody, and a different amp for each. Got old in a hurry. The next gig was pedal steel only. Period. I may not learn fast, but I do learn well.

Ben Lawson wrote:After years of playing steel at a theme park, Herby Wallace was told he had to audition to get his job back. He was also asked what other instruments he played.
He didn't get his old job back.
A comedian was once asked if he could sing or dance. He replied; if you're hiring a chef, would you ask if they could farm?

There's a story,perhaps apocryphal,that during downtime Bill Monroe would put his sidemen to work on his farm.....

Franklin wrote:

So, I decided to play dumb as the driver began teaching me what to do. He had me go thru the gears - with each gear I intentionally ground them hard, acting nervous, as he would scream "Stop" I kept on grinding saying "I got it". I was never asked to learn again
.

Good thing for you it wasn't an automatic tranny !

Since inception of playing Steel, locally, in each of the small town bands at Halls , Legions, Bars , Lodges, Lounges ,Festivals etc... I always carried the Steel, a Fender Twin, a Telecaster, a seat of some sort, a mic and a stand.

I didn't know any better, evidently I still don't . 50 years later I still carry the same stuff except the Twin has been replaced with a 20 pound combo amp.

I've seen and played with some Steel players who carried
more gear for SINGLE duty than I carry for double !

Truth be known, even though for years I presented myself as a Steel player , I'm actually a guitar player who also plays Steel. If I'm going to a gig, I'm bringing a Telecaster ! period ! Even if it just sits there !

Fred Treece wrote:Back to the keyboard bass thing

Yes. In its defence, remember that the piano (or any other keyboard) is a self-contained instrument which can naturally supply melody, harmony and bass all at the same time, and its player does not feel put upon if asked to do so. He or she may well be bored with keeping off the bass line when it's more natural to put it in.

The bus driver doesn't get extra pay for using all the gears.

I prefer to hear a bass player crafting an idiomatic line undistracted by multiple duty, but not everyone will care about that.

I understand both sides of the fence on this topic. I spent 10 years on the road as a guitar player and pedal player (double duty). It helped me survive financially for a decade, see America and learn about the world and the wild side of life, however I never did vocals so the pedal steel saved me from having to learn to sing, which I have no passion for.

I did do many tours playing strictly Telecaster guitar, but typically that was inefficient for a band to put a man on the books to play one instrument without vocals. I have many times been paid a little extra for double duty but it is a lot of extra work. The pay isen't always much extra but i've kept the same band job for 19 years now since i left the road, and i think it's worth it from an artistic outlet viewpoint.

I have my road kit down pretty tight, a boss microprocessor for the guitar, for steel a pod XT direct into a PA system (No amps). I carry one pedal steel a S10, a telecaster with a D dropper, a nylon string guitar, and a strat set up for slide à la Leroy Parnell. I can set everything up in about 15 mins, so yeah it can be hard work but there’s ways to be efficient to do double duty or triple.

The guy with the harmonica wins on load out but he seldom gets a full time gig doing just that.

Interesting to hear all the comments on playing more than one instrument. I guess if you sing also that could be classified the same way. I think “Paul’s” Bus driving story is the winner so far but being a”Steel Player” you shouldn’t have had any problems with the pedals Paul.

Another big issue of late that effects gigs and not playing one or more instruments but that is “Jams”. This must be a sore spot with a lot of players as I think “Jams” have caused a lot of gigs to dry up. A lot of clubs etc now hold “Jam Sessions” to get free music. Maybe this is moving off of the topic a bit but it has effected us greatly.

The only I place will consider playing for free is for a group of Seniors. I consider this as a Give back to the community and to the people who worked so hard for us .

The “double duty” discussion is interesting, especially if it expands into triple- and quadruple-duty, but it doesn’t really answer the OP question.

None of the instruments that have been mentioned can do what the keyboard player in the ad is being asked to do. You are never going to be required to cover bass parts on your pedal steel, or guitar, or harmonica, glockenspiel, or whatever - all while simultaneously covering whatever that instrument is supposed to be playing on the song - every song, every gig.

Maybe you can play walking bass parts while you comp chords or play melodic leads on your guitar. It’s a good trick to have in the bag for doing solo or duo gigs. But neither that bass line nor the sound of it makes the cut in a full band.

As entertaining as some of the stories have been, the question of paying the keyboard player more than an even cut of a paid gig for what he is being hired to do is still wide open and mostly unanswered.

Fred Treece wrote:As entertaining as some of the stories have been, the question of paying the keyboard player more than an even cut of a paid gig for what he is being hired to do is still wide open and unanswered.

As in everything, isn't it all simply negotiable?

Yes, Brooks, as Ricky Davis commented on page one of this thread. Charge whatever you think you’re worth.

But I think Lee’s question is more philosophical and conditional. If everyone in the band knows what an even cut for the gig is, does the double-duty keyboardist deserve a premium? My answer is no, not double pay. But I would consider additional pay, depending on the quality the player was able to provide. The one I worked with was exceptional and I would not have flinched if I found out he was making 25-50% more than me, especially because I was happy with what I was making. I also understood that without me, there was still a band. But without that keyboard player, the show does not go on. Or it sucks if it does.