Best pedal guitar steel you can buy?

Randall Miller · Post by **Randall Miller** » 31 Oct 2006 11:34 am

Hello....well it looks like this thread is winding down. I want to thank all those who responded with your personal thoughts and feelings from around the globe. I probably won't be buying a new steel as I still love my Emmons. I wish only that it had come with better tuning keys is all. But, maybe Shallers or Grovers weren't available back then?

Randy in Lockport, NY

J PARKER · Post by **J PARKER** » 31 Oct 2006 1:14 pm

There are a lot of good steel builders in this day and time. I have personally played numerous guitars over the years. The past several years i have been a RAINS player because of the feel and tone i get from it without using any effects. Great guitars in my opinion. Jim

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 31 Oct 2006 4:04 pm

I've been playing this instrument long enough, with many guitars, to realize that the best guitar you can buy is the one that says "let's you and me make music" within a few moments of your sitting down behind the horn.

In other words, you like the feel, the look, the vibe, and the sound of the guitar simultaneously.

To do that, you have to play many guitars. The best place for that is either one of the guitar shops that has mucho guitars, like Bobbe's or Billy Cooper's, or else at a MAJOR steel show, which right now is only ISGC (St. Louis) in September or the Texas Jamboree (Dallas) in March. There are a number of shows in which you can see SOME guitars, but the manufacturers pretty much all agree that they must make a serious presence at the Texas and St. Louis shows.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Garry Vanderlinde · Post by **Garry Vanderlinde** » 31 Oct 2006 8:23 pm

that the best guitar you can buy is the one that says "let's you and me make music"

I agree with Herb, get the guitar that talks to you

Brett Day · Post by **Brett Day** » 31 Oct 2006 9:10 pm

I think a GFI is a good'un. It's like sometimes, I imagine my GFI("Redgold Beauty) sayin', "Okay, Brett, it's time for you and me to make some good music together and please don't play just one song,haha. I also think a Zum is a good guitar, and so are guitars like Emmons, Franklin, and Sho-Bud. There's just so many guitars out there. Brett, Emmons S-10, Morrell lapsteel, GFI Ultra D-10-aka "Redgold Beauty"

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 1 Nov 2006 4:58 am

Not to change the subject, but I will, I was thinking, would those carbon fiber guitar bodys break easy?? How hard is that stuff? I have seen only one of those guitars [in person] and it was a real beauty, but I worry about that carbon fiber? Anyone want to chime in here?

Ernie

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David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Nov 2006 6:39 am

I think carbon fiber is stronger than wood. They make acoustic guitars of very thin carbon fiber, and no internal bracing is required. The body of the MSA Millenium seems to be about 1 1/4" thick, and I believe there is a honeycomb-like internal structure (I think I read this somewhere, but I'm not sure about this). That's gotta be very strong. In addition, there are full length metal rails front and back up under there. The aprons and pedal bar cover are very thin. They are slightly flexible, like plastic, but seem very tough.

I can't imagine that there is a better pedal steel made than the MSA Millenium. However, I haven't tried them all, and several others may be equal to it or negligibly close. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 01 November 2006 at 06:45 AM.]

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 1 Nov 2006 6:49 am

Herb, I couldn't agree with you more. Well said. If I may take your excellent observation a bit further...I really like it when my steel says "Why don't you stop what you are doing, come over here, sit down behind me and let's you and me make music together"

BTW, which one of your guitars says "let's you and me make music together" most quickly after sitting down behind it?
TC

[This message was edited by T. C. Furlong on 01 November 2006 at 06:51 AM.]

Penny Custureri · Post by **Penny Custureri** » 1 Nov 2006 8:01 am

Got a brand new Derby SD-10 few months ago. I'm a Beginnger/Intermediate. Gotta lotta guitar and keyboard background. Love my Derby. They put a lot of extra touches on them like the extra wide pedals if you wish. Also the paddles on your knee levers. Can't say enough. Also the Stepps are wonderful people to do business with.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 1 Nov 2006 8:19 am

TC
The guitar that fits me best is my Emmons wraparound #1264018, the one I play onstage and the one you saw at ISGC.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 1 Nov 2006 8:28 am

the best guitar you can buy is the one that says "let's you and me make music" within a few moments of your sitting down behind the horn.

FWIW, in my own experience, I've hated just about every guitar I've owned for the first 2 weeks until I learned how to get my sound out of it. It's a subtle thing, but I eventually subconsciously adjust my attack (and amp settings) till I get it to where I want it. I can be impressed by the appearance, technology, and 'playability' immediately upon sitting down at it, but it takes a while longer for it to really 'speak' to me (or, rather, for me to learn how to get it to speak to me). YMMV.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 1 Nov 2006 8:45 am

As far as the carbon fiber thing-the material is being used in race cars and race motorcyles these days.

The area where I have some familiarity with it is in bicycles. I enjoy cycling for exercise and recreation, and did some amateur racing myself many years ago.

10 plus years back, there were issues with the carbon fiber fork on a racing bicycle breaking a lot easier than the traditional heavier steel fork, but engineers have improved the things dramatically.

Carbon fiber has become the darling material of the bike racing scene. All sorts of parts are made out of it, and probably the majority of the bikes ridden in the Tour De France now have frames made out of carbon fiber.

It has gotten to the point that ballpark 160 lb. riders are descending twisty mountain roads in the Alps at 50 mph on bicycles containing a lot of carbon fiber, and the bike weighs all of 15 lbs.

So as far as the strength factor of an MSA carbon fiber PSG, I wouldn't think there is anything to be concerned about.

It is my understanding that the tooling and molds to build things out of the material-be it bicycles, 6-string guitars, or pedal steel guitars-is ridiculously expensive, so this had to be quite an investment for MSA. Hence the high retail price.

Carbon fiber can be designed and molded to different thicknesses, to put more material where it is needed and less where it isn't.

The guy that builds 15 steels a year in a small shop on his property isn't going to be able to afford to participate.

If pedal steels were a larger segment of the musical instrument industry, I think we would see more builders using the material.

I'll be looking forward to checking out the MSA carbon fiber steels at the San Jose jam this Saturday, from Mike Perlowin and David Wright.

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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 01 November 2006 at 08:48 AM.][This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 01 November 2006 at 08:50 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 1 Nov 2006 10:07 am

Randall,
There is nothing better than what you play right now. The Emmons PP can not be beat when it comes to tone.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 1 Nov 2006 10:28 am

There is nothing better than what you play right now. The Emmons PP can not be beat when it comes to tone.

Bob is, of course, correct... depending on what sound you are looking for!

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 1 Nov 2006 10:37 am

Hey Penny,
Welcome to the Forum!

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 1 Nov 2006 12:26 pm

OK, here's my long $0.02. The above comments about the guitar "talking" to you, recently became a reality for me. I've played for the better part of 34 years and have owned many different brands. I always thought the two matched MCI S12Us, that I had for years, were the ultimate guitars for me. (had to let them go years ago) They have been my benchmark, by which I judged all other guitars.

2 years ago I bought a Fessenden S12U. It was such a truly great axe that I thought I'd never want to have any other. Well....about 3 weeks ago, in the process of trying to make a little extra money, I bought a Dekley S12U at a real good price with the intention of selling it for a little, much needed, profit. Once I got it, without even plugging it in, I did a complete cleanup and lube job, adjusted the copedant and polished it, and tuned it...all without ever plugging it in. I honestly thought it would be a so-so sounding kind of guitar that would have a rather sterile sound...and was it ever HEAVY!! NO ONE could have ever convinced me that this Dekley could be anything other that a "nice" guitar.

A couple days later, I decided I better try it out, in case a buyer would ask how it sounded. Well, this was when it had it's first "conversation" with me!! Whoa!!!! I have never felt so intimately connected to an instrument in my life! I was rather shocked!! After 15 minutes I stopped, wondering what the he!! was going on. Over the next several days of playing, I began to realize this was for real...and man, was I ever ellated. My wife even noticed it!!

My point is that those who say to try MANY guitars 'til you find THE right one are EXACTLY RIGHT. So, now the Fessy is sold, and me and the Dekley are having regular pow-wows. My wife, who never particularly liked how any steel sounded, said she LIKED listening to this one. "It just sounds so pretty." she said. I'm telling you, this guitar is something special!!!

I was playing it just before writing this, and it seemed effortless. There's nothing about this guitar, physically, that sets it apart from the rest....except this almost spooky interaction. It inspires a confidence I've never known before, like it's helping me play. Maybe this is like the "magic" that Emmons players talk about.

I finally found THE right steel for me...and it wasn't even "modern" or new or top-of-the-line!! And it happened by accident!!

So, keep looking for THE one that's just right FOR YOU...when you find it, believe me, you'll know!

(geesh that got wordy!?!?!?....sorry, guys.)[This message was edited by Mike Wheeler on 01 November 2006 at 12:32 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 1 Nov 2006 6:35 pm

Not to change the subject, but I will, I was thinking, would those carbon fiber guitar bodys break easy?? How hard is that stuff? I have seen only one of those guitars [in person] and it was a real beauty, but I worry about that carbon fiber?

Ernie, you want to know how strong carbon fiber is? Well, not only is it used in most all high-performance tennis racquets, golf clubs, and fishing rods made today, it's also the stuff that the wings on the Stealth Fighter and the new Joint-Strike Fighter airplane are made of. Even the new Chevrolet Corvettes have rear springs made from carbon-fiber!

For guitars, it's ideal. It's far stronger than wood or aluminum, won't crack or split, won't shrink or swell, it's impervious to moisture, totally resistant to rot, fungus, or insects, and it never corrodes, fades, warps, or rusts.

FYI - The body of the MSA Millennium is one molded piece of CFC (or carbon fiber composite)...about 1/8" thick!!! It has no surrounding metal frame (as did the old "Classics") or honeycomb reinforcement.

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 2 Nov 2006 12:22 am

This is always funny. My MCI RangeXpander "taught me to play", as it was and is my first ever steel.
Logically I think this is the best PSG in the world, as I'm approaching a point where I can get it to sound anyway I want (almost) when I want it.

Recently I tried somebody else's MSA classic D-10 on a completely other amp, and was very surprised that I wasn't sounding all that different.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 Nov 2006 10:38 am

Donny, I think you need to take a closer look at the Millennium body. My M3 has a body that measures about 1 ¼” thick under the neck. The front and back aprons may be 1/8” thick, but unlike wood bodies, the aprons do not support the body, and basically just hang from it to look nice and cover the mechanics. The MSA web site describes the body construction thus:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The body of the MSA Millennium is hand-laminated, vacuum-formed and computer-monitored in a female mold with high-tech woven and unidirectional carbon-fiber prepregs and a foam core…

…When the body is molded, these points are not part of the core material and resin flows within the mold into these predetermined compression points.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The “compression points” are simply their way of referring to where the body attaches to the changer, keyhead and end plates. I don’t completely understand the process, but it sounds like there are layers of carbon fibers embedded in a resin – something like the way fiberglass is constructed. There is also some kind of "foam core," which I had mistakenly remembered as a honeycomb. Together it all seems to add up to a 1 ¼” thickness. The aprons and pedal bar cover are so thin they are flexible. But they are only for looks. The body itself is thick and very rigid.

The aluminum side rails that the crossbars attach to run the length of the body and are attached to the underside of the body by 12 screws along their length. The rails are only attached to the body, and are not attached to the end plates. So the body is suspended between the endplates; and the rails hang from the body, and the body does not rest on them. But by being attached to the body with the 12 screws along their length, the rails act as braces supporting the body against cabinet drop. So you are right that technically there is no metal frame that the body rests on other than the end plates.

Randall Miller · Post by **Randall Miller** » 3 Nov 2006 1:37 pm

Hi guys...Jim and Bob and others. I like the tone on my Emmons as I am also used to hearing it sound that way now. It does take a little time to get the sound you want to hear in your head and have it come out the amplifier. I think it is also a matter of a good amp and playing technique.
One other thing...I noticed a 'padlock' on this thread the other day....someone apparently took it off?

Randall Miller · Post by **Randall Miller** » 5 Nov 2006 2:04 pm

Ahhhh, my mistake, the 'padlock' or closed topic for this same topic I saw was in the 'steel players' forum.