Lead guitar versus Pedal Steel

[Tony Prior]

I believe some of my forum friends, and we are friends ,feel I am taking an antagonistic position, I am not, I get it, I really get it. But when I hear " Those Guitar players..." it makes my skin crawl, it not the guitar, its the player, the musician. "Why do all guitar players..." ??? well, WE ALL DON'T.

I'm a daily practicing player , guitar or Steel, I work on things I know need attention., Some of my musical friends I work with are not, and it shows. To me it shows. Am I better than them ? NO, Some of them are really fine players but they don't have the time to invest daily, they are happy to have time to play a gig. So we may clash, we do clash, I expect something, they are not in synch. So they play. And they play, and they keep on playing. Some get it, some don't, some never will.

So what does all this mean ? it means we should navigate , adjust, figure out a way to survive it, maybe make it work, or don't play.

Reach out, invite the player to get together, just the two of you, talk it thru, play music. Play together. If you can't get together, a phone conversation may help.

If we are angry on the bandstand, that's not a good thing. If we develop an attitude on the bandstand, thats not a good thing, actually thats a very bad thing. We end up with TWO players not playing the song.

Do something , reach out. Its about the person, not the Instrument. You may learn some very interesting things. We are all busy, we all have things going on in our lives, we all can't meet everyone's expectations.

Now obviously if said player isn't interested in a "cure" or whats on your mind , then that's a totally different problem, a PEOPLE problem, not a Guitar problem. One that you probably can never cure. So it becomes decision time.

Most if not all weekend bands are happy to have a gig, everyone is happy. There will always be those that take it more serious than others, players that are way more prepared than others, different skill levels, different attitudes..all that stuff. we are not A team players recording for Alan Jackson, we are lucky if we all have batteries in our tuners.

There are some excellent replies here from Dave C and Bill B. And there are also some other replies, hopefully in satire.

This isn't about Guitar players it's about Musicianship and our own expectations. Are our expectations the same as all the other players in the band ? Maybe we need to manage our expectations for the Legion Hall.

[Larry Bressington]

Excellent write up Tony, Very well thought out and processed and put across.

I think anybody who makes music has the same common goal, to bring emotion to a human through musical passages and story lines. I hope my comments were not harsh, I’m a firm believer in the simple philosophy that if you have two televisions on in the same room, that creates confusion for the brain. Two players hammering away at the same time is the same confusion for the listeners, it’s rubbish and gargled noise, No artistry without firm disciplines.

1) Another line I’ve used over the years that works well is this: Let me know when it’s MY turn!
2)If that don’t work, put a blank piece of sheet music in front of them and say: When it’s my turn, YOU play that! Haaaa

[Tony Prior]

we're all on the same page Larry, hopefully not that blank one you mentioned !

[Larry Bressington]

[Tony Prior]

I'm pretty lucky I suppose, I play with regular band 2 x a month with a very good long time player, we clash now and then , lightly, but we know it and try to correct it. It happens.

its a good discussion. Important and as others have said, important to see both sides.

[Jacek Jakubek]

Redd V and Dallas Wayne, not sure who the steel player is, but the interaction between the steel and the guitar is petty much perfect. Both alert, watching each other, playing tastefully, and generally not stepping on each other's toes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG6OMMZVItM

Nice clip. Awesome steel playing. Thanks for posting it.
Only thing that would have made this better is if Redd V sang some harmony vocals. He sings already, why not add harmony vocals? It makes the songs WAY better.

This gives me an idea: Tell the overplaying guitar culprit to sing harmony vocals, or even just background vocals like "ooohhh" and "aahhhh" because harmony vocals are VERY hard to do. The background vocals will keep him busy and prevent overplaying. It may make him stop playing altogether

[Fred Treece]

Redd V and Dallas Wayne, not sure who the steel player is, but the interaction between the steel and the guitar is petty much perfect. Both alert, watching each other, playing tastefully, and generally not stepping on each other's toes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG6OMMZVItM

Nice clip. Awesome steel playing. Thanks for posting it.
Only thing that would have made this better is if Redd V sang some harmony vocals. He sings already, why not add harmony vocals? It makes the songs WAY better.

This gives me an idea: Tell the overplaying guitar culprit to sing harmony vocals, or even just background vocals like "ooohhh" and "aahhhh" because harmony vocals are VERY hard to do. The background vocals will keep him busy and prevent overplaying. It may make him stop playing altogether

Speaking of vocals...As I noted in the other thread where that clip was posted, the fills are burying the lead vocal. That's why I don't think its a very good example of guitar/steel interplay, even though it is obviously two great players. It's probably the mix, or it could be my playback device, but that's the way I'm hearing it.

[Larry Ball]

Learning how to play with other lead instruments takes practice, great understanding and musicianship.
Having played lead guitar in small bands where you are the only lead for many years. I fully understand a lot of the problems, however this lead guitar player has not learned how to play with others (probably plays the same way in the sand box too.}A lead guitar and steel can be a great combination in a band when working together. We have lead, steel and fiddle in our band and we go to great lengths at working out arrangements to improve intro, solo, ending's. So learning to play off each other and keep things "Clean" and not cluttered with everyone trying to play over each other is important.

If you have a "Band Leader" he/she should be addressing your problem. Once personalities become apparent you are finished as a Band.

[Malcolm McMaster]

Billy, use our good friend Mr Gamble’s tactic, he was sick fed up of a lead player playing over his vocals( and steel breaks), he told him in no uncertain terms “ When my lips move YOU don’t play” just adapt it to “When I Play a lead break YOU don’t play”.

[Ron Shalita]

Smack him!

[Donny Hinson]

Speaking of vocals...As I noted in the other thread where that clip was posted, the fills are burying the lead vocal. That's why I don't think its a very good example of guitar/steel interplay, even though it is obviously two great players. It's probably the mix, or it could be my playback device, but that's the way I'm hearing it.

No offense intended, but In defense of the OP, that is not a professional recording, or anything close to it. I never expect anything recorded by someone in the audience using a handheld device to reflect a band's true sound. It's more like a snapshot of a large mural.

[Fred Treece]

True, Donny. Although the guitar and steel sound quality is not bad at all. I’m going with bad mix.

[Jim Sliff]

Hard habit for six-stringers to break.

This is quite uncalled for. It has NOTHING to do with the player's instrument - it's a mindset just as prevalent in steel players and keyboard players as 6-string players.

There's no reason to be insulting to 6 string players as a "group" - and having spent most of my gigging career as a six string player, I find it VERY insulting!

Like Larry Ball and Tony Prior said, The problem in the OP's case is the *specific * player, who has never learned to "lay out" during others' solos. If he thinks he's just "arpeggiating" he needs to be put in his place by the bandleader and taught how to use his volume control - and how to back off on his attack.

I've played with B3 players who tended to obliterate other solos until someone IN CHARGE explained the facts of happy musical life to them.

It's a matter of musical education and how to play in a band.

It is NOT a "6 string problem".

All good advice here, but ultimately you will have to tell him to TURN completely OFF, no frills, no fills, no arpeggios, no fretboard drizzle, just OFF!!

That's ABSURD! The steel player should be telling him NOTHING!/ It's the bandleader's job - otherwise there will be nothing but infighting within the band. There has to be someone on control.

If there's not - don't complain. Just deal with it.

But NO player should be told to turn "OFF" - just to play with control and dynamics that fit the songs. If they don't understand, it's time for them ti find a new band.

Or time for you to. If you don't like it and the leader won't fix it - quit. It's not worth the aggravation.

[Dave Mudgett]

I confess. I am a guitar player. I've been playing guitar for well over 50 years. And I think the main issue here has absolutely nothing to do with being a guitar player. This is about either

1. Different musical cultures - this is not the "traditional country pedal steel guitar forum", and not every style of music expects a guitar player to just turn off every time someone else is playing. In a lot of rock, blues, and other styles, guitar spend a lot of their time as part of the rhythm section and sometimes properly play pretty aggressively, although the intent is not to interfere with others. In those cases, they expect vocalists or soloists to power through the mix. There's a reason for the big market for overdrive or other pedals to push a soloist up in the mix.

2. A problem with a specific player, and this can be any instrument. It may be ignorance, it may be ego, or it may be a totally different musical ethos. Not everybody shares the musical values of musicians who prefer to play pedal steel in a sparse, vocalist-dominated musical setting, which goes to #1. Some musicians and listeners find what many of us do to be boring. Most of my problems with regard to this have been about having a player who is in the wrong band. At this point, if that's me, I exit. If that's someone else, I push them pretty hard to either figure it out or get the hell out.

3. The IMO ridiculous distinction between a "lead guitar player" versus a "rhythm guitar player". To me, anybody that considers themselves to be a "lead guitar player" and can't also play rhythm/backup guitar is simply not serious about their craft. Yes, there are specialists in rhythm guitar, but someone who goes beyond that and can't also play rhythm/backup guitar needs to spend a few years in the "rhythm guitar training farm" until they figure it out. Because most of what a serious working guitar player does is play rhythm/backup guitar, in almost any context I can think of.

And IMO, #3 goes to a lot of other instruments like keyboards and, yes, even steel guitar.

Look, if you are having a problem with musicians just crapping all over everything you do, either as a soloist or a singer, I feel your pain. I suspect anybody who has played in bands for any length of time has experienced this. I don't think there's any pat answer for how to deal with this. If things are really bad, I try to take someone aside privately - I do not want to embarrass them publically during the middle of a gig - and talk to them. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't, other times I get a bunch of BS back. If you have the power to influence this, great. But in the end, you either play the gig, or not.

[Tony Prior]

I'm starting to think the "which strings are better" conversations are a step up from this one

I'm staring at 3 or 4 guitar right now on stands, NOT A SINGLE ONE has played a SINGLE note for a couple of days now.

But I'm gonna wait it out. Pretty soon I am expecting those evil guitars to just start playing Metallica or something.

I have another gig tomorrow, I have to figure out which Guitar is not gonna launch into excessive solos whenever it feels like it. Thats the one I'll bring to the gig.

[Chris Walke]

Get someone to record a few songs at a gig and listen back. If he is definitely stomping all over your moments, play them back and ask how the two of you can work together to avoid this and make the band sound polished. That's about as diplomatic as you can get, I think.

[Donny Hinson]

The IMO ridiculous distinction between a "lead guitar player" versus a "rhythm guitar player". To me, anybody that considers themselves to be a "lead guitar player" and can't also play rhythm/backup guitar is simply not serious about their craft.

The big issue Dave, as I see it, isn't whether or not a guitar player can play rhythm. The issue is whether or not they do play rhythm. What a player is capable of can be quite different that what they actually do.

Listen to this clip, just two pedal steels. The players are Buddy Emmons and Sneaky Pete. I remember Buddy's comment about the recording, that it was sounding great when he played lead and Pete played rhythm. But when it was Pete's turn to play lead and Buddy played rhythm, in Buddy's own words, "The whole bottom just dropped out of the song".

And he wasn't talking about tone or sustain, either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Zgd6Ctz1Q

Of course, this isn't typical instrumentation, but it does show very well that some rhythm approaches just "work", and some don't.

[Dave Mudgett]

Listen to this clip, just two pedal steels. The players are Buddy Emmons and Sneaky Pete. I remember Buddy's comment about the recording, that it was sounding great when he played lead and Pete played rhythm. But when it was Pete's turn to play lead and Buddy played rhythm, in Buddy's own words, "The whole bottom just dropped out of the song". ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Zgd6Ctz1Q

Of course, I was talking about guitar backup playing. But I totally agree - Pete's backup playing is fabulous. Exactly right. I wouldn't exactly call it "rhythm guitar", i.e., comping in the traditional guitar sense, but it is a perfect backdrop for what Buddy was doing. And I did hear the bottom drop out somewhat without the fairly up-in-the-mix but repetitive and rhythmic arpeggiated figures that Pete was playing. There's a reason so many musicians and bands called on Pete to add his special touch to their music.

So to be sure, plenty of guitar players are accomplished backup players and sometimes just don't find the right channel in a particular situation. But I can tell you by hard experience that some otherwise accomplished guitar players (and other instruments) really seem not to get the concept of backup/rhythm guitar playing in a variety of situations. I think it's necessary to figure out what the problem is before trying to fix it. There's a helluva big difference between dealing with another player (any instrument) that knows how to back things up and won't versus one that doesn't know how to do it in the first place.

Part of the issue, as Donny's example points out pretty clearly, is that turning off or even down is not necessarily the answer. Backup playing is to support the song, and the soloist or vocalist, whatever it takes. Sometimes that's laying back or out, sometimes that's comping with the rhythm section, sometimes it's adding some type of harmonic or rhythmic texture that supports what they're doing, and on and on. I guess that's why these kind of "guitar players suck and should turn down or off" discussions leave me cold.

And, BTW, the original poster didn't go postal on guitar players - he stated he had a specific problem with a specific guitar player in a particular situation. Yes, it happens, and sometimes it can be dealt with. Many guitar players are excellent all-around musicians, and they're not all self-absorbed egomaniacs. But to read this forum, you'd think they, as a group, are a bunch of knuckle-dragging neanderthals.

[Larry Bressington]

Great write up Davo, I agree whole heartedly 100% with everything you say, and in a good situation that’s how it should be and is, however the op is not in that situation that’s why he asked what should he do?

Well there’s many many things he can do good or bad depending on how one takes it, apparently around here if you use the word volume “off” it offends people. I play a lot of gigs per year primary guitar and secondary guitar, I constantly turn myself completely off in certain songs which does not offend me or anybody else, in fact I’ve been told it’s refreshing to hear just a D28, bass and drums without constant noise going on. Of course this does not apply to driving songs, or blues tunes where rhythmic drive just had to be there, but good old country there is plenty of room for Off, especially when it’s thoughtful and others are in the mix. As Bob Wills used to say, “you’ll get your 12 bars and it better be good”

Here’s a wonderful example of “Off” by the the great time jumpers, The Fiddle Player/s just sat there doing nothing, when Paul takes his solo all you hear is the bass and the drums and lots of space which is very eloquent to let his notes breath, that’s how great off sounds.
https://youtu.be/e7nEkz61n2Y

[Dave Mudgett]

... I constantly turn myself completely off in certain songs which does not offend me or anybody else, in fact I’ve been told it’s refreshing to hear just a D28, bass and drums without constant noise going on. ...

I already agreed that sometimes laying out or going way down in volume is absolutely appropriate. Sometimes it's about the only thing to do. The idea of creating musical space is certainly not offensive to me - to me, it's at the core of great music. And thus it also drives me crazy when other players - not just guitar - can't just shut up, ever. Lack of dynamics is one of my pet peeves in a lot of modern music.

But what I'm reacting to is this implicit assumption in many replies on this type of topic, not just here but on many, many past threads, that it's a UNIVERSAL problem that guitar players play while they're taking a solo. Sometimes it is very important to the overall ensemble sound for a guitar player to find something appropriate to play because, as Donny correctly points out, the bottom can just fall out otherwise. My sense is that many of us here completely agree with all these ideas, but the discussion somehow gets hyperbolic when the subject turns to "lead guitar", "banjo", and "bagpipes".

[Larry Bressington]

When I used the term Universal Dave that meant global as in the universe, all continents all nations all nationalities fight with this situation, it did not refer to all guitar players, not sure where ‘universal’ got termed lead guitar players, But I did pick up on that on a few replies Lol

I enjoy your writings by the way.

[Fred Treece]

There has been a lot of great advice here, and I have taken heed. The most important thing I always do in these types of situations is remind the offending player what an honor and a privilege it is for them to be in a band with Me.

By the way, Larry, I sure like that term “Universal Dave”. Reminds me of SuperDave Osborn.

[Larry Bressington]

It’s nice to get in on a few threads “once in a while”, a bit of healthy banter and ranting, it sure gets sticky fast though and suggestions blown out of proportion....I do enjoy a good laugh and a wind up too!

Ultimately music is imagination, and everyone’s fingerprint is different.

Love ya pals!

[Dave Mudgett]

When I used the term Universal Dave that meant global as in the universe, all continents all nations all nationalities fight with this situation, it did not refer to all guitar players ...

Gotcha. Ahhh ... the subtleties of language. In this context, I see at least 3 aspects to which universal could have been applied. I guess I was picking up the context of universal from Tony's first post where he said the problem wasn't universal, by which I think he meant "not universal" among guitar players. And I absolutely agree with that thought.

Speaking of language, there may be some divide as half the posters are Brits, the other half Yanks. Thus, one of my favorite quotes (pick your source, Wilde, Shaw, or Churchill) - two nations separated by a common language - may be apropos.

[Dave Hopping]

Hard habit for six-stringers to break.

This is quite uncalled for. It has NOTHING to do with the player's instrument - it's a mindset just as prevalent in steel players and keyboard players as 6-string players.

There's no reason to be insulting to 6 string players as a "group" - and having spent most of my gigging career as a six string player, I find it VERY insulting!

Like Larry Ball and Tony Prior said, The problem in the OP's case is the *specific * player, who has never learned to "lay out" during others' solos. If he thinks he's just "arpeggiating" he needs to be put in his place by the bandleader and taught how to use his volume control - and how to back off on his attack.

I've played with B3 players who tended to obliterate other solos until someone IN CHARGE explained the facts of happy musical life to them.

It's a matter of musical education and how to play in a band.

It is NOT a "6 string problem".

All good advice here, but ultimately you will have to tell him to TURN completely OFF, no frills, no fills, no arpeggios, no fretboard drizzle, just OFF!!

That's ABSURD! The steel player should be telling him NOTHING!/ It's the bandleader's job - otherwise there will be nothing but infighting within the band. There has to be someone on control.

If there's not - don't complain. Just deal with it.

But NO player should be told to turn "OFF" - just to play with control and dynamics that fit the songs. If they don't understand, it's time for them ti find a new band.

Or time for you to. If you don't like it and the leader won't fix it - quit. It's not worth the aggravation.

And where did most six stringers cut their musical teeth? Rock and roll, the MORE ME genre. While Jim's right to point out that the bandleader has final say about SPL, and that for innumerable reasons it's unhelpful for one sideman to tell another what and how loud to play,rock's anti-authoritarian DNA operates against that sort of good sense. Jim's also right to say that MORE ME territory has a goodly proportion of vocalists, drummers, bassists ,keyboardists, string-players and blowers of horns as well, all of whom would rather listen to themselves than the rest of the band.