Is 24 i/4" scale common?

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 29 Sep 2006 3:03 pm

Hey David! Thanks for your input. I don't want to start a ruckus or anything, but I just have a few friendly questions. You say:

Since the tension is actually greater on the keyless guitars with 25" scale than on the keyed 24 1/4" scale, why does the 25" keyless not have more breakage?

I question whether the 25" scale has more tension. From the input on this thread, I am beginning to think that a keyed 24 1/4" scale has MORE tension, since it has a longer overall distance,(changer to tuning device) and is strecthed more, to pull from G# to A.
I know that a 24 1/4 keyed guitar feels tighter when I press my palm down on the strings, than it does on my 25" keyless.

If both scales are 25", then the same tension will be required to pull to A. The length of overhang is irrelevant to tension.

If you are stretching more string with the keyed guitar to get up to A, then more stretching, means more tension. More tension means you are getting closer to the breaking point of the string.

The length of overhang is irrelevant to tension.

Is it?
In an earlier post, the general consensus was that the overhang portion of the string was under the same tension as the scaled portion. If these two parts of the string are equal in tension, then a longer overall string(as in a keyed 24 1/4" keyed guitar) will have greater tension, than a keyless 25" scaled guitar with less than 1" overhang.

Imagine this:
We have a guitar with a scale of 24 1/4", but the tuning keys are 12" away from the nut. Could we use the same gauges of strings, and the same E9th tuning? If not, then Why not? Could we even tune the guitar to E9th? Or, would that require too much tension?

Just friendly questions here. I don't want to start a fight or anything.

What do you make of Michael Johnstone's statements?[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 29 September 2006 at 05:08 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 29 Sep 2006 9:03 pm

David - you owe it to yourself to check out a nice long scale keyless guitar,you'll find out that the tired myth of the lack of sustain in the upper register is indeed a load of crap - the sustain is incredible.
In fact,there is harmonic information going on on a 25" or 25.5" that is not available on a shorter scale.This is not a keyed vs keyless thang - it's a short scale vs long scale thang.It just so happens that you can't make a 25" keyed pedal guitar for obvious reasons. -MJ-

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Sep 2006 9:27 pm

Michael Johnson said:

A 25 inch keyless has less string length measured anchor to anchor than a 25 inch keyed guitar so the string on the keyed guitar would have to be pulled further to get up to pitch - thus exceeding the tensile strength of the string.

For a new string, this is flat wrong. Yes the string has to stretch further, but that does not increase the tension. Repeated stretching does wear the string out, so at some point the weakened tensile strength of the string will be exceeded (even if the tension is not greater), and the string will break. It is the tension over the scale that determines pitch. If the pitch, gauge, and scale length are the same, the tension is the same regardless of the length of overhang. If the pitch and gauge are the same, the longer scale will have greater tension, regardless of the overhang. Tension is measured as force at the end of the string. It doesn't matter how long the string is, or how much it has to stretch, 10 lbs. of force on a 25" scale string with 1/4" of overhang is equal to 10 lbs. of force on a 25" scale string with 6" of overhang, or 6' of overhang. Sure, the stretch is different. But stretch is not tension. We went over this many times in many ways before. Have you developed Alzheimers? Just kidding

, but getting frustrated.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Sep 2006 9:34 pm

Michael, I do believe longer scales are better in terms of tone. That's true of concert grand pianos versus baby grands, and of short scale Stringmasters versus long scale ones, and it's true for pedal steels. But that refers to scale length. I am not clear on the effect of different overhang lengths on tone. That seems to be the issue in the keyless/keyed debate.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 30 Sep 2006 4:18 am

Yes the string has to stretch further, but that does not increase the tension.

So, you are saying that it takes equal amounts of tension to stretch an .011 gauge G# string up to an A, with an overall length of 28 1/2", as it does to stretch a 25 1/2" overall length of the same gauge, to the same pitch?
Now, I am confused about that.

It is the tension over the scale that determines pitch. If the pitch, gauge, and scale length are the same, the tension is the same regardless of the length of overhang.

It is the tension over the scale that determines pitch.

Yes, but how much force is need to acheive that tension? The overhang part must be stretched as well.

But stretch is not tension

But tension is needed for stretch!

So, if you had a guitar with an overhang of 12", it would require no more tension to tune to E9th than a guitar with a 1" overhang? Assuming both guitars have a 24 1/4" scale.

How could that be? It just does not seem logical. That 12" length of overhang must be included in the tension, since we have already determined that the overhang part and the scale part of the string have equal tension.

All the tension charts show about a 1 pound increase in tension per inch of scale length.

I know that scale length and overall length are not the same. But you still have to stretch that overhang portion to get the scale part up to pitch!

And a keyed 24 1/4 scale keyed guitar has about 28+ inches of string to stretch, to get the scale portion up to pitch.

And what about Buddy Emmon's statement about not being able to construct a 25" scale keyed guitar? Why was he and Shot not able to do it?
Buddy said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In reference to your earlier post, my only experience with the 25” scale other than the Sierra was when Shot Jackson and I were building Sho~Buds. It was during the time the high G# was added to the tuning that we encountered the string breakage problem and had to reduce the scale 24 ½ inches.
To be different than Sho~Bud and possibly reduce string breakage even more, I had fifty 24 ¼” Emmons atom fret boards made in Nashville and gave them to Ron to use on the first guitars. By that time, the Sho~Bud fret board had proven that the longer scale didn’t work so there was no need to experiment with the Emmons guitar. Ron had built a Sho~Bud clone prior to my meeting him and may have been referring to that guitar, but the Emmons guitar started at 24 ¼” and stayed there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By that time, the Sho~Bud fret board had proven that the longer scale didn’t work so there was no need to experiment with the Emmons guitar.

had proven that the longer scale didn't work
Why?

Why did he have to shorten the scale to reduce string breakage? A keyless guitar does fine with a 25" scale. Why won't a keyed guitar work with a 25" scale?

I think it has to due with tension on the overhang!

Seems to me Buddy was saying that a keyed 25" guitar kept breaking the G#'s.

Why is Ed's Beast with a 29+" scale unable to be tuned to standard E9th, with the same gauges that we use on 24 1/4 scales?
Could it be that since Ed's beast is virtually ALL "overall" string length (changer to tuning device), and an .011 gauge string will only stretch so far up to tension, before it breaks?
In fact, Ed's Beast virtually has no nut. It is virtually all "overall" length!

I appreciate the input. No need to get frustrated. Just educate me.

I'm listening!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 30 September 2006 at 10:24 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 30 Sep 2006 7:24 am

I think there is something else to consider with string breakage. The higher in tone the string is, the more you have to stretch it to get it up to tone. On a keyless guiter you don't have to deal with much extra string past the nut. However, on a keyed guitar you have to stretch that part of the string past the nut, which on the 3rd string is considerable. This requires the changer finger to rotate more and you are bending that portion of the string more every time you go from G# to A. The more you have to bend a string, the sooner it will break.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 30 Sep 2006 9:18 am

"The more you have to bend a string, the sooner it will break."
Yup. That's why linear pulling changers (Anapeg & Excel) don't break strings and rotating cam changers (all other manufacturers) do.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Sep 2006 11:30 am

Curt, you are again confusing stretch with tension, just as you did a couple of months ago. Just because you have to stretch the string more to go from G# to A does not mean the tension is greater. If the scale length and gauge are the same on the two necks, then there will be the same tension on both strings at G#, and again at the end of the pull at A. The string with the longer overhang will have to have a longer pull to take up the extra stretch, but the tension at the end of the pull up to A will be the same. It is a longer but softer pull. The force or tension at the end of the pull is the same on both strings. The longer stretch does not take more force or more tension.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 30 Sep 2006 12:05 pm

Just because you have to stretch the string more to go from G# to A does not mean the tension is greater.

So, you're saying more stretch does not take more tension?

David, you say

It doesn't matter how long the string is, or how much it has to stretch, 10 lbs. of force on a 25" scale string with 1/4" of overhang is equal to 10 lbs. of force on a 25" scale string with 6" of overhang, or 6' of overhang.

In that case, we should be able to have 30" scale keyed guitars tuned to standard E9th with the same gauges of strings, as a 24 1/4" scale guitar!.............But we don't!

Why?

(1) Also, why did Buddy and Shot come to the conclusion that a keyed 25" scale was too long?

(2) If your statement is true, then why won't Ed's Beast pull an .011 gauge G# up to A, with out breaking? [This message was edited by Curt Langston on 30 September 2006 at 03:21 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 30 Sep 2006 2:04 pm

Yeah - Why? Not a bad question.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Sep 2006 2:20 pm

Hunh? I see no connection with your question and anything said above.

Curt, here's the thread where we went through all this back in July: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013035.html

Eventually you agreed with everyone else that total string length has nothing to do with tension, only scale length affects tension. Why are you bringing this up again?

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 30 Sep 2006 2:23 pm

Eventually you agreed with everyone else that total string length has nothing to do with tension, only scale length affects tension. Why are you bringing this up again?

Because I question whether I was wrong to begin with. I have unanswered questions.

David, you say

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It doesn't matter how long the string is, or how much it has to stretch, 10 lbs. of force on a 25" scale string with 1/4" of overhang is equal to 10 lbs. of force on a 25" scale string with 6" of overhang, or 6' of overhang.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In that case, we should be able to have 30" scale keyed guitars tuned to standard E9th with the same gauges of strings, as a 24 1/4" scale guitar!.............But we don't!

This question

Why can't we have a keyed 30" scale guitar?

Can you answer it?

I would like to know...................

And how about these two.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>(1) Also, why did Buddy and Shot come to the conclusion that a keyed 25" scale was too long?

(2) If your statement is true, then why won't Ed's Beast pull an .011 gauge G# up to A, with out breaking?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Help me out here. I really want to know. This is not to pick a fight, I just need these questions answered.[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 30 September 2006 at 03:33 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Sep 2006 2:34 pm

And Michael, here is the never ending thread in which your false ideas about long overhang increasing tension were also laid to rest: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/012971-2.html

Why are the two of you raising this dead horse again?

In those threads we agreed with the two of you that keyless guitars with short overhang may have less breakage because less stretching reduced string flexing at the changer. And everyone agreed that the reduced breakage is not due to less tension. In fact 25" scale keyless guitars have more tension than 24 1/4" scale keyed guitars (for the same pitch and string gauge). In spite of the increased tension, they take advantage of the decreased stretching and flexing, so they don't have more breakage - maybe even less. I think none of us will be surprised that the laws of physics have not changed since July.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Sep 2006 2:40 pm

Reread those threads. All those questions were answered there. Holding gauge and pitch the same, increasing the scale length increases the tension. That's the answer for each of your questions. Decreasing the overhang length does not decrease the tension, but does decrease the stretching and flexing, and thereby decreases the breakage.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 30 Sep 2006 2:48 pm

David,

Break it down a little more........

Why can't we have a keyed 30" scale guitar?

Just humor me......[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 30 September 2006 at 04:32 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 30 Sep 2006 3:32 pm

Physics work a little differently out here in California I reckon.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 30 Sep 2006 3:48 pm

David,
Can this be done?

If you were somehow able to take the nut off of a steel, and have just the changer and the tuning key 36" apart. Could you tune that G# string up to pitch, then pull it up to an A, without it breaking?..... I say that you would be hard pressed to even be able to tune the G# up to pitch without it breaking, much less pull it up to an A.

And again, I ask: Why can't we have a keyed 30" scale guitar?

Thanks for your input![This message was edited by Curt Langston on 30 September 2006 at 04:49 PM.]

Post by **b0b** » 1 Oct 2006 7:54 am

This argument has nothing to do with Don's question (which has been answered), so I'm closing it.

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