The Steel Guitar Forum

The cross brace is also flocked with blond flocking.

PIC'd below is another custom, lacquer bodied built Emmons, built by Paul, for Paul. And yes, he assembles all the hardware too.

and now the guts...One sharp lookin horseshoe crab

<SMALL>Don't you just LOVE your Push Pull?</SMALL>

Uhh...frankly, no. (The reasons, for which, I've already elaborated on several times here, so I won't bother re-expressing unless someone queries me by e-mail.)

Next question?

You posted to tell us that you wouldn't tell us why you dont like a PushPull? Poor guy..

Hmmm...yes, something like that.

There's even a new push/pull steel out, a Promat, that's said to be an improved but generally identical copy of the old and highly revered Emmons push/pull.

Oh, and by the way...didn't Buddy just get a new <u>Zum</u>? <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 07 September 2006 at 03:14 PM.]</p></FONT>

yeah, but he's had his fill of P/Ps, Us newer guys still got time to learn to hate..

I think my PP plays great! and I'm comparing it to a New Mullen RP. I really dont have to give anything up to play it.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Mike Vallandigham on 07 September 2006 at 03:32 PM.]</p></FONT>

How can the Blade be the standard for tone? It ain't even black! Seriously though, what kind of changer does that thing have - cut tail, bolt-on or wrap-around? Can't really tell from the picutre...

So why does Donny not like a p/p? Here's a question: why ask why? Probably the same reasons many people don't like them - they don't exacly play like butter or anything... Usually pretty heavy playing, klunky feeling, gappy, tweaky, sloppy, stiff and rattly... For those of us who do like them, they'd better offer up somthing pretty good in return for all that in the way of tone to the bone, and they obviously do.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Duane Reese on 07 September 2006 at 09:52 PM.]</p></FONT>

Same Strings
Same Pickup
Same Wood

Why the big diff in tone between PP and All Pull.
Changer Perhaps ?

Mike, how does the PP compare to playing your ZB?

Duane, I swear, it plays like butter. I think that most folks get ones that are ill set-up. I think mine had the right stuff when I got it, and I only made it better. Yeah, I'm suprised myself. I have got all the lumpyness out of every pedal except pedal 5. that's next. The knees and pedals all have positive stop feel, smooth accurate, quite, buttery, soft, playable, bendable, all that. I know a guy close by who just had a PP set up by Mike Cass (I think) and I'd like to compare the two.

Bob: My ZB plays not so hot... All C6th pedals are stiff and hard to feel...All knees are nice, soft and positive. I took apart the E9th, and got it pretty nice, but I just cant get the B pedal smooth. It pulls the 5th string in the last stiff milimeter of pedal travel. I just ahve to spend a week, and give all the skin on my fingers to get that b pedal right. I've pretty much got it sittig there for to look at. BUT, it does sound great, and it's totally playable, just quirky. I also have a hard time with the seating position and the right most knee lever, it really bugs, to the point that I just fold it up.

But, to answer your question directly teh Emmons smoked the ZB. But that ZB tone is so uniquie, thick and warm.

Damn, I'm so bored at work...

Thanks Mike, sounds like you're in for some more tweaking. Let me know if you decide to let the ZB go..... I have number 0108, and it plays great, but I'm still tweaking on 0084.

Most p/p guitars compared to all-pull (just talking averages) are clunkier, but mine ain't bad either. I put some lighter-than-stock return springs on the shafts and that made a big difference for me.

It's a terrible guitar if one can't figure out what the heck is gong on with the changer, but once past that hurdle, it's a beloved piece of machinery.

They say the reason it sounds good is because the positive stops in the changer fingers let vibrations get down in the guitar better, and make the string feedback happen more, but I'm not sure about that - seems when the raise is engaged and it's a halfway one, where the finger doesn't hit the cabinet, it still sounds good, or even if it's out of wack and none of them hit (not that my p/p has that problem, yuck yuck!). I'm not convinced the whole story of the Emmons guitar's success has been told...

That's seems easy enough to test...put an all-pull changer in a push/pull guitar and see if it changes the tone. Has anybody ever done that? (Duh...yes. Emmons. It's called a Legrande)

...don't mind me, I'm just having another conversation with myself. <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 09 September 2006 at 09:55 AM.]</p></FONT>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>It's very important that they are properly set up. You really need someone experienced to help with that.
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. They sound incredible, but they are not as friendly as the all-pull guitars, when it comes time to add a change. IMHO of course.

This is true, Curt. I'll tell you - whenever you have a guitar that you have to slide the cranks on from the end of the shaft (thereby having to remove the shaft to do this, like p/p and many others) or an old guitar that has a single rod that goes through multiple pullers on different shafts (like a p/p or an old Sho-Bud) and you want to change or add to the copedent, you got trouble.

I am a recent push pull convert. I bought a 1969 D-10 in January, No. 1308, and it has really changed my whole concept of what playing the psg is about. I remember when I started playing, hearing guys talk about the PP sound, and I thought, well hell, Paul Franklin plays an all pull guitar, and after all, it's all about the notes anyway, right? To my amazement, it was true what they said, there is a difference. That beautiful sound I'd heard on all the old country albums? Here it is. This steel cuts through no matter how loud the band I am playing with is, and though it is definitely quite a bit heavier than an all-pull, the weight is so worth in in terms of the tone.

What is it exactly? I still remember the first time I played one, and played it up above the 12th fret, UNPLUGGED, I couldn't believe how rich and resonant the sound was. Sure enough, plugged in, the sound just about took my breath away. And it doesn't seem to matter much what year, a buddy of mine just picked up a pretty 1975 PP and it also sounds out of this world. I am hooked! Want to get another one in the next year before they get too expensive.

I have also noticed, that a push pull sounds so good that simple playing sounds great it is allowing me to play a lot less and still sound pretty good.

I have also noticed it is the first psg I've played that sounds good distorted, basically sounds really big, like a lapsteel. Prior to playing a PP I never liked the way a psg sounded with an overdrive tone. But my Emmons sounds killer with any kind of overdrive: Klon Centaur, Reissue 808, as well as the AC booster pedal I use for guitar sometimes too.

I do need to find someone who I could pay to teach me how to maintain mine though. I'd be sunk if something went wrong on it hear in NYC.

Thanks for starting a fun thread.

..Bobbe would probably teach you how to maintain your p/p for free if you were in Nashville, but if you insist I'm sure he'll take your money for the Push Pull Maintenance video he made. Here's a link.

http://www.steelguitar.net/videoinfo6.html

...and regarding the sound...I've come to the conclusion after a number of years reading the posts on it and talking with people about it that you can either hear it or you can't. I consider myself fortunate that I can.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 11 September 2006 at 10:32 AM.]</p></FONT>

Gerald, congratulations on acquiring your first push/pull.

My first modern steel was a 1970, S10 push/pull. I had it for about 16 years and decided, rather than spending money to have a complete overhaul on the guitar, I would sell it and buy a different guitar. The replacement was an all-pull guitar which I played for about 10 years. I really enjoyed playing the all-pull guitar, but I had to get back to the sound of a push/pull guitar. The sound I hear in my head is that of the Emmons p/p. With my all-pull guitar, I used to incorporate a certain amount of effects in the "loop". With my Emmons push/pull, I don't use anything between the guitar and the amp (besides the obligatory cables and volume pedal). I have no desire to alter the beautiful tone.

Regarding maintenance: A little advice, once a push/pull has been set-up and adjusted by a reliable tech (my favorite is Bobby Bowman), there is very little maintenance required. I just add a spot of light machine oil here and there, about once a year, and periodically check set screws to ensure they're snug. Also, if Dr. Bowman does the adjustments, chances are it will have a pedal/knee lever feel about as good as an all-pull guitar. It's simply incredible what he's able to do for an Emmons push/pull.

However, until you need a tech, here's a link to John Lacey's "Wilderness Guide" to the Emmons Push/Pull guitar. It very logically explains how to adjust the undercarriage: http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html

BTW: I'm still using and enjoying the Evans SE-200 you sold to me a few years ago. Thanks again for that opportunity!

May you have many years of total bliss playing your Emmons push/pull and...

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 11 September 2006 at 01:44 PM.]</p></FONT>

Duane Reese said, "They say the reason it sounds good is because the positive stops in the changer fingers let vibrations get down in the guitar better, and make the string feedback happen more, but I'm not sure about that - seems when the raise is engaged and it's a halfway one, where the finger doesn't hit the cabinet, it still sounds good, or even if it's out of wack and none of them hit (not that my p/p has that problem, yuck yuck!). I'm not convinced the whole story of the Emmons guitar's success has been told..."

Actually, Duane, there is positive contact with the body all through a raise sequence. Including with a half stop. This is because on the push/pull guitar each string incorporates a raise finger and a lower finger. The raise finger nestles beside and has total contact with the lower finger. When the lower finger is in it's detent (at rest) position it's in contact with the body. Thus, as you raise a string with a pedal or knee lever, the vibrations travel through the raise finger into the lower finger and into the body.

Only on lowers is there a momentary break in contact. This happens when the lowering push rod moves the lower finger away from body contact and before it makes contact with the adjustment screw in the end plate. I figure the contactless vibration might last a half a second or so. Not really enough to effect vibrational transfer to the cabinet.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

I played my 71'SD-12PP Ext E9th guitar last Sat. night, through 2 Nashville-112's and the band members and the crowd were all telling me just how good sounded. No Efx, just some amp reverb and tone to the bone.
Ya, it's black!!
JE:-)>

------------------
Emmons D10PP 8/4 -75'
Emmons SD-12PP 3/4
Zum SD-12 5/5 - 91'
75'Session 400
06 Nashville 1000
06'Nashville 112 x 2
w/Knob-Guard

Here's a '75 lacquer I restored a few years ago, Dick Miller re-finished the cabinet, Mike Cass had the aluminum buffed our for me, and flocked the underside. I did the rest.




------------------
Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Here's my '77 Emmons D10, s/n 2411D:







The thing about Emmons Push/Pull guitars is, they sound far better than they look; This one is no exception.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 16 September 2006 at 07:08 PM.]</p></FONT>

OH MY!!

Glenn, please don`t do that again! it took me ages to get the slobber off of my screen!
I would`ent say its more beautifull than my "Blondie" but its getting powerfull close!
I only have four p/p`s, "Blondie","Red" and "Frank" (Frankinstein cos it has the bolts thro the neck)I don`t have a name for the 12 string yet and would love to know what year it was made......ser 193 split tail with extruded pedals.....maybe 84 ish??

John, a few months ago I sold an S12 Emmons p/p (E9-B6 "uni", 7p/4k). It was a single frame with the cut-out back apron. The changer was the "split-tail design. Tuning keys were the "Keystone" Grovers, and the pedals were the black anodized, LeGrande style. Everything was original to the guitar. The serial number was 190-S12, and I believe it was "born" sometime in 1981. I'd say your s/n 193 was probably "born" within a few months of mine.

I'll bet your 12-stringer is a tone monster, too. Mine was.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn