The Steel Guitar Forum

Be careful, Andy. And don't ever plug in a steel to play while you're in bed!

Brian's wireless idea seems foolproof enough. It'd be interesting to know if anyone has tried one with a steel, which brand they use(d), and what (if any) changes it made tonewise.

As u said

GFCI's are an acceptable way to provide protection on ungrounded systems. The GFCI's do not need a ground to be functional. They measure minute differences between the hot and neutral currents. If a certain difference is recognized, it "assumes" a leak I.E. ground fault and trips the circuit.


Ken Fox
Retired Electrician
Local 48. IBEW.
PORTLAND OR.

Well I'm up early here at 5:30am.
This XVIVE unit is the one I bought and as I said yesterday, it seems to work well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... bryDy4rFl4





I see it is listed at Musicians Friend for $154.90 in black. I bought it here in Saigon for just $133.00 and it seems like a really nice unit. Came with some charge in it.
I recharged the 2 parts in a short time with the included double USB charger.

I'll still take the amp to the shop today to have it checked out for a possible short in the circuit board.

Can anyone explain why the plugs on the XVIVE unit are two-conductor and the plugs on the BOSS are TRS?

Thanks to Ken, Godfrey and Scott for your help.
That GFCI unit seems to be a good idea for when I'm just playing at home and no big deal if it cuts off the amp instead of shocking me.
However for gigging I'll use the new Xvive so I can play without interruption.

For Ken, I didn't know you had moved to Portland. I'll be back in the Eugene/Harrisburg area for a couple of months in June and July.

For Donny, I'd not want another amp (AC or DC) because I'd been wanting one of these Webbs since 1979 when I first heard and played through one. At that time it was beyond my budget ability.
I really like the tone of the one I got now better than any other amp I ever played through. Seems to have even improved since I put in the Eminence TT 15" speaker. More power than I ever expect to need. Think I'll buy another Eminence TT 12" speaker to put in my Peavey 112 Nashville. That amp has served me well since 2006, but the tone was always lacking in the warmth I like. I plan to bring it back to Oregon to use with my Promat D-10 when I'm in the USA.

Anyway, thanks to all who responded because my knowledge of electronics is limited to almost none. The forum members are really great when we need answers.

Retired from Portland and moved to Georgia in late 2004

Ken Fox wrote:Retired from Portland and moved to Georgia in late 2004

As usual, I got it backwards, Getting too old to find my readers!
I'm also retired more or less...

Jack Hanson wrote:Can anyone explain why the plugs on the XVIVE unit are two-conductor and the plugs on the BOSS are TRS?

Wild guess, it's called a "combination plug" and before one uses it have to mate the two units together for 10 secs to sync trans/receiver for it to choose the best frequency. Perhaps the extra ring is for that sync purpose.

They make the WL-50 for pedal board use:



And as the 21st would have it, his boy Elroy gets to rock out with a Katana wireless amp and you can change patches from your phone:

Kool, but that little video looks like me after
I hit the wrong string three times in a row!

Andy DePaule wrote:Hi Godfrey,
Complicated, but think I understand what your getting at

Check out this video Andy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf2CLsr-uMs

A test with an AM radio and an explanation of how simple things like lights can be causing problems.

Something we all might want to know.

Hi Godfrey,
Very interesting. I watched that and then the next up about light bulbs;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqc-8JbCw1o

This was of even more interest because we have almost all Compact Florecent bulbs in this house.
Makes me consider going back to the old standby bulbs that we grew up with.
Andy

Thanks for the clip Andy.

I tend towards tungsten and halogen. The halogen lamps I have in the studio have separate UV glass over them to shield from ultra violet radiation.

But a bright LED flashlight may be a necessary evil to be able to see in an emergency.

Some of these CFL lights are said to pick up computer data out of the air.

If a two-wire AC line can transmit audio then who knows what was backdoor'ed into some of these new light devices.

https://www.lifewire.com/audio-over-home-wiring-3134646

Your remote control uses light waves to communicate data with a device, wireless keyboards and mice.

Hi Godfrey,
My lady and I talked about it and Yes we'll try changing most of the lighting.
I may leave a few in my work area because I don't use them often of for extended periods.

Think I'd mentioned that when I moved in here the humming noise from my amp was horrible. Tom suggested that I use the shortest cords possible and that solved that issue.

Just had a call from the music shop and a quote for the right kind of transformer to go into the Webb. He also said that the short was in the old 110 Webb transformer. As soon as he switched them the shocks stopped.
Parts and labor $42.00 only.... Got to love it here!

Do you play in a band in the PI? There are a few PI bands playing here in Saigon.
Most of what they do is pop and Hotel California way too many times! And way too loud!

By the way, I would definitely not trust a GFCI to prevent a shock, though it might possibly save a life. I have much the same problem in my music room. There is a master GFCI which is so sensitive it sometimes trips when turning on a lamp or power hungry device. I sometimes use a very high quality instrument cable from the guitar to one tube amp. Using that cable I sometimes get rather nasty shocks when a picking finger touches a string. The GFCI never trips in that situation. Both the amp and outlet have 3 leads but I can't be sure the outlet was wired properly. I've avoided using that cable with that amp and have not encountered the problem since.

A shocking situation....
I can sympathize having received quite a few of those shocks myself.
Wish I had a good answer, but I don't even have a GFCI yet.
Looking forward to picking up my amp because the shop said they found the shorting problem was in the transformer.
I'd wanted and asked them to replace the original 110 transformer with a 220 volt transformer anyway since thats the voltage in this country. Now I won't need to use an external step down transformer.
I'm not looking forward to testing it out with bare feet!
But someone has to do it.

Steve Sycamore wrote: master GFCI which is so sensitive it sometimes trips when turning on a lamp or power hungry device. I sometimes use a very high quality instrument cable from the guitar to one tube amp. Using that cable I sometimes get rather nasty shocks when a picking finger touches a string. The GFCI never trips in that situation. Both the amp and outlet have 3 leads but I can't be sure the outlet was wired properly. I've avoided using that cable with that amp and have not encountered the problem since.

Yes perhaps in turning on a lamp the switch shorts for a split second going from one position to the other?

It would depend on the device if one receives a shock. Figure they are all made by different companies and do different things. AC has a funny way of reacting some times.


Andy, Glad you finally got your problem solved on your Webb. I had a feeling the transformer was faulty somehow.

Filipino bands were/are popular the last many decades. Servicemen were known to report listening to them at clubs bars and hotels around military bases throughout the Pacific. The fave bands were the rock bands. I'm sure the hotels are still hiring them throughout Asia. There is no shortage of musicians, singers out here. The TV shows are "Idol" shows all day with many amazing voices that range from children age 8 on up. There was always the "so-and-so" of the P.I. ever since the 50's and 60's. Whenever a new singer hits the mainstream, there'll be a Filipino singer that can sound enough like them to get them work or notoriety. There have been actors and singers that have made it to Hollywood.

But the music industry still sends cover bands to other countries and they are usually pretty good considering they were raised in a bar scene and not a studio and English is not their cradle language.

Lots of Filipino entertainers in Japan and China.

There are session players who get contracted to perform for the foreign majors at concerts.

I haven't played in a band for a long while. Mostly do studio and concert production work. Arranging and playing/singing on tracks in studio sessions for singers.

Before here was doing the Socal band/studio scene, original band venues, rock bars, frat-soro parties from San Diego to LA.

And before that studio work in the mid-west, gigs in Las Vegas, Reno, Scottsdale, on the road as it were.

Concert wise it depends on who needs my help. And it's the majors who come out this way.

My wife sings back up with many of the local star menagerie and foreign major artists that show up needing back-ups on vocals. Is constantly in the studio or on a stage and is on much of the discography from here.

Sometimes I get the itch to play a gig but don't have the time to devote to it.

Rock and country is more popular in the provinces than it is in Manila although there have been good rock bands as well, and are original material signed to record deals with millions of followers. As usual whatever is the new trend in music, the record companies follow suit and support similar new-crop artists. Tends to be more R&B, rap, EDM. Same as is happening in other countries.

The major American record companies have record companies here who carry publishing licenses.

Back to topic, GFCI would save your life and that's more important than anything. Anything to not get hurt.

The wireless idea is the safest though. if your grid system is quirky.

Only work around is to have your own gen-set providing you with power but we all know that is impractical except for the insanely well endowed and we risk tapping onto city grid systems.

Especially using vintage amps that have the death-cap ground system. Was ok in the 60's but not today.

And many won't change the death-cap switch because it will mess with the vintage originality.

Parts and labor $42.00 only.... Got to love it here!

Hehe, yeah it's like the 50's and 60's at times.

People still willing and knowing to do things that don't require sending something away.

Still some of the old technology and mindset alive and well.

Where I live reminds me of the streets of Brooklyn back in the 50's. But then there's a Starbucks on almost every corner, a 7-11, KFC, Burger King, Macdo, Pizza Hut. Even a Costco subsidiary with a membership fee. Not that eat a lot of fast food. It's there if you do.

I like it in the provinces too. Low key! Listen to the crickets.

I do like Vietnamese food. When back in San Diego, band members and I decided to get some stuffed-squid with vermicelli, broken rice and egg rolls. Turns out the resto owner was the 1968 tennis champ from Vietnam. He was nice. We walked out of that resto like we were high from the "nhi" and the food.

Must be the krill they use in the sauce, really wakes you up!

b0b wrote:Maybe plug something like this into your volume pedal and amp. There are other brands too.
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www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WL20--b ... simulation

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b0b
Thanks for that suggestion!
So the wireless setups now don’t sacrifice tone?

Thanks Bob,
Yes I bought another brand the other day.
It is called XVIVE and works wonderfully plus got rid of the ever present tangle of wires.

I also gave your tuning method on your pages using simple 0 +5 -5 -10 and -15's on my main PSG. Very happy with the blend that sounds good to my ear.
Best wishes,
Andy

Got the problem all solved now.
The music shop called me two days ago to tell me it was fixed.
When I got there he explained that he had figured out there was a short in the transformer. He then took it to a man he said was the best at that.
He in turn re-wound the transformer for 220 volts. I didn't even know that was possible.
Total cost was 900,000 Viet Nam Dong = $38.73 US.

Now the best part, NO MORE SHOCKS! and it has no hum that I can hear even turned up to 6 or 7... I'd be scared to go past that in case the house fell down.

Just my opinion, but this amp seems to have the best and warmest sounding reverb I've ever heard and reverb is just about the only effect I use. Well a little E-Bow now and then, but not too much.
The high impedence Pedal steel sounds great at just #2 on the 0 to 10 dial and 0 to 1 is fine on the low impedence lap steels.
I can't imagine turning it up much more than 3 because it starts to sound like it's coming from Mars!

In the house I play with the volume on 2 and the volume pedal almost never above half way unless I'm sustaining a long note.
The lap steels at 1/4 or less on the volume knob is plenty loud enough for the house or even some of the small clubs here.
Can't imagine what it would sound like at 10, but I'd be scared to try in case Saigon had an earth quake.

Anyway, thanks to all of you with so many good ideas and the electrical education I needed.

Andy DePaule wrote:Just my opinion, but this amp seems to have the best and warmest sounding reverb I've ever heard and reverb is just about the only effect I use. Well a little E-Bow now and then, but not too much.
The high impedence Pedal steel sounds great at just #2 on the 0 to 10 dial and 0 to 1 is fine on the low impedence lap steels.
I can't imagine turning it up much more than 3 because it starts to sound like it's coming from Mars!

In the house I play with the volume on 2 and the volume pedal almost never above half way unless I'm sustaining a long note.
The lap steels at 1/4 or less on the volume knob is plenty loud enough for the house or even some of the small clubs here.
Can't imagine what it would sound like at 10, but I'd be scared to try in case Saigon had an earth quake.

Anyway, thanks to all of you with so many good ideas and the electrical education I needed.

It's a Webb, right? If you turn down the Sensitivity knob, you'll be able to run the Volume knob higher, which will give you more control and perhaps a better tone.

Thanks Bob,
Yes a Webb and I've got that sensitivity at #3 and volume at #2.
I'll try it in the morning because I don't want to get the neighbors mad at me.
It's 11;00pm here now and past my bed time too.
People here get up early with the sun to go to the park and to work.
Best wishes,
Andy.

Patrick Huey wrote: Thanks for that suggestion!
So the wireless setups now don’t sacrifice tone?

I wouldn't say that - I haven't tested them. But a lot of the big concert guitar players go wireless now, so I assume that the tone problem of the older units has been solved.

I can't detect any problem with the wireless device I've bought now.
If there is some loss it's very little and beyond my hearing ability.
Also so nice to get rid of the wires.
Anyone want to buy a bunch of cords ????

No one mentioned that some "set-up/step-down" transformers do not isolate the primary from the secondary. These are more correctly termed auto-transformers and if they are connected to an ungrounded neutral there is the possibility of shock. Auto-transformers are much cheaper that isolation transformers since they take less iron and copper. Keep in mind, that when the current passes across the heart. 60 milliamperes may cause fibrillation and possibly death. An example is when current passes arm to arm and/or arm to leg.

Next, rewinding a 60Hz transformer for different voltages does not maintain the original volt-ampere rating. The volt-ampere rating is decreased by 17% because there was no iron added to compensate for the decreased frequency change. A transformer that supported a 100-watt amplifier now supports only an 83-watt amplifier. Check your rewound transformer for heat and you will find that operates hotter at 50 Hz than with 60Hz.

It is possible the both the "hot" and "neutral" can be many volts above ground. In England, the residential 220 Volt, 50 Hz service is supplied from two of the phases of a three-phase transformer. The neutral cannot be connected to an earth ground.

As a follow-up to my earlier reply, I am facing the same situation as Andy here in the Philippines. So I got around to pounding a piece of rebar into the ground right outside the window beside my steel and ran a wire from the 3-prong to 2-prong adapter and attached it to the little ground tab those adapters have. That adapter is on a 3-wire power strip - so anything I plug into the power strip that has a ground prong gets grounded. A couple of hose clamps holds the wire to the top of the rebar.

Previously, if I played barefoot, or even touched the metal of the steel while standing on the tile floor barefoot, I would get a small shock. Now? No problem.