The Steel Guitar Forum

As a D10 player of some 35 years I would be more personally inclined to go with an extended E9th S12 (with a middle C# string and low A string) rather than go the whole hog with a Universal 12 string. I'm not sure that the time and effort after all these years on two necks to go in the universal direction would be worth it for me. If I was starting from scratch however I would seriously consider a U12 guitar.

Maurice is a great example on what can be achieved using a real universal tuning, but there again his musical knowledge and expertise is not commonplace.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>If you want the definitive word on universal verses D-10, you need to read the latest epistle from Bobbe Seymour!
.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read Bobbe's article and it was purely his opinion - quite articulately laid out - but in no way is it the definitive word. There are too many differing views for one person to have the last say on what is correct and what isn't.

I don't understand why everyone isn't playing a Universal 12.

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Zum U-12 w/True Tone pickup thru a Nashville 112
Strats thru a VHT Super 30
http://community.webshots.com/album/176544894AuXSmi
jonchristopherdavis.com

www.lonestarattitude.net

To assume that a D-10 is superior to a U-12 because all of the Nashville touring pros play one is poor logic. In 99+% of the cases they could get away with a SINGLE 10 for the material they play with major artists.

Granted, there are many top players who choose a double neck instrument. That choice has history on its side, as well as a lot of inertia because of the new top dogs learning from the old top dogs and the D-10 is the thing. Also, if you really need a half dozen knee levers on each tuning, you're probably better off with a double neck. But most players -- even many top players -- are satisfied with five or six levers which fit very well on a single neck.

BUT, it is very denigrating to players like Maurice Anderson, Joe Wright, and Jeff Newman (and a few others) to assume that you're a lightweight who can't play in tune if you play a single tuning. It just ain't so, no matter what a vendor might want to tell you.

This is a personal decision and everyone has different needs. Buying the same make and model golf clubs will not make you play like Jack Nicklaus and using a different make and model will not prevent you from playing as well. Use what works for YOU. Take the time to find out what that is. Don't rely on the recommendation of ANYONE.

I have actually played many gigs on a D-10. I've also played MANY, MANY, MANY on a U-12. I wonder how many of the most vocal critics of a U-12 have ever played one for more than an hour or two.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 08 February 2006 at 06:20 AM.]</p></FONT>

Many players,, now thats not all..many ..respond to the single 10 as being limited on the low end..and of course that has validity..as we all know...

But I wonder how many of those that are seeking that extra music down there under the B string have actually concquered the music available above the B string ?

Count me in the catagory of

NOT

Although a 12 has crossed my mind..but not as a replacement but AN ADDITION to...

just causin' trouble...

oh, and Mark, the reason I'm not on a U12 is..

well... I don't want to be...I'm still tryin' to figure out what those other 9 strings are for

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite
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<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 08 February 2006 at 07:18 AM.]</p></FONT>

I owned a D-10 and a U-12 before switching back to an S-10 (wanting to concentrate on E9 exclusively for a while.). Having played live and recorded with all three configurations, my conclusion is that the U-12 definitely makes sense if you need the 6th tuning for your work or pleasure and don't want the weight of the D-10. I play strictly country, and when I want the 6th stuff I just go to where I can find it on the E9, but the really nice 6th voicings need a 6th tuning.

In my very humble opinion I find it pathetic when any player publicly puts down another's preference, especially if there's a few thousand dollars invested in that instrument. Who's to say what's better for everybody? There are many fine players on this forum using the universal tuning. I think it takes a lot of talent to play both tunings on one neck, While I did revert to an S-10, I did spend a bit of time gigging with the U-12 and found it very versatile and in no way inferior to the D-10 which damaged my back due its clumsy weight.

I get the feeling that a lot of players (not at the top) change instruments/tunings in search of the "ultimate sound/feel/lick ability"...and with what might be good reason.

1. Feel = if it does not feel good to you, you won't play your best...have the pedals and levers "fitted" to your body.

2. Sound = some folk have a more critical hearing system; some are bothered by things that I can't hear. Then there is the issue of do I want the Chalker sound, the Green sound or? Forget tracking the Emmons (the man) sound as he uses them all plus some.

3. Licks = the last one to come out of Nashville/Bakersfield, and sometimes Austin/LA. P3 on E9 was off a lot of lists until JH played Look At Us.

D10 vs. Uni of some sort is a matter of what fits you best; aside from the tendency to praise whatever you have (brand/type et al) just because that is what you have, it is financially draining to search for what fits you best musically...usually a moving target.

There are lots of ways to configure a Uni...D10 is pretty much fixed plus or minus a pedal or lever or two.

A Uni can be set up to be played as either the E9 or B6 via the LOCK method. Another Lock can be added to Give the B,D string sequence on the middle strings if that does it for you.

The top strings can be arranged in the C6 with top 2/9 order if that does it for you, and give you an added higher pitch string than C6 has (a tension and breakage issue).

Bill Stafford uses the E9/B6 LOCK approach. The M Anderson followers tend to the Bb6/Eb9 arrangement (why not...most non Nashvilleze music is in flats. Al Vescovo uses a 14 string C6 "Uni" setup...he is Big Band/swing/jazz and Show tunes oriented (fresh air here).

I add in the full 13 series musical structure into my Uni at the expense of adding three pedals...chord contest anyone?.

The easy out for the S10, D10, Uni type is probably to pick the sound that you like, by the player(s) that you like, see what they are using, and start there. Get new gear if possible to avoid inheriting someone elses problems...second choice would be from a reputable knowledgeable rebuilder/shop.

The Uni can be used with or without the LOCK approach; if you have long legs like Joe Wright you can reach any of up to 10 pedals hence can have changes available that are not in the cards for us shorter legged mortals.

I personally go for a 14 string Uni based upon an E9/B6 concept (as opposed to a B6/E9 or similar concept). It is a longer neck (added frets) and tuned to C69, top string sequence like C6 with the 2/9 on top, second string being an A.

The reasoning is that with a 14 string unit, I can use it as a 12 string, a 10 string, etc. when I get the urge to tinker. It is easy to change the undercarriage setup on the Uni I have (some are not). The Uni has a larger frequency spectrum than the D10 necks combined....don't need it, then don't use it...you want it, you got it...can't play what you don't have.

If you like plain vanilla, get an S10...French vanilla, get a D10...like Ben and Jerry's tasty concoctions, go Uni of some sort.

just wanted to take a moment to thank each and everyone that has responded to this post
i have a lot to think about, one thing i don't understand very well is this : what is the differance in the extended E-9th and the U-12 ?

calvin

I believe that most uni players don't have the 9Th string D note (without a lever). They also usually have more pedals that are the same changes as what are on the C6th neck of a D10. An extended E9th player (at least the ones I have seen tunings of) has only maybe 4 or 5 pedals that have common E9th changes, but no C6th type changes.

If I was just starting out. I too would seriously consider a U-12 (or 14).

And to criticize any player for their choice of instrument is apalling.

Edited 'cuz I had a cortizone shot in my soine this morning and am flying high on Vicodin. Hard to type correctly.

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Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 08 February 2006 at 01:38 PM.]</p></FONT>

thanks richard

calvin

Calvin,
The extended E9th (12 string) is just like the regular 10 string E9th except it has two extra low strings. Sounds nice!
Erv

Calvin

Here is the difference
<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
Uni E9/B6 Ext E9
1 F# F#
2 D# D#
3 G# G#
4 E E
5 B B
6 G# G#
7 F# F#
8 E E
9 B D
10 G# B
11 E G#
12 B E
</pre></font>
Some common variations on the U-12 would include tuning the 2nd string to C#, or changing the order of strings 1 2 3, or tuning strings 4 and 8 to D# instead of E, or transposing the whole tuning up 1 fret, or down 1 or 2 frets.
It's easy to put all the "C6 pedals" on ext E9, but still the ext E9 lacks the useful open strings of C6, and the low range of C6 and U12.
b0b has lots of examples at http://b0b.com/tunings/index.html

thanks Earnest ,
that really put it so that even i can understand it

calvin

I tried out a U12, and I really like it, like everyone is saying the C6th is there all of it, and the E9th is there as well, I have played D10's until my back went bad from carrying them, if you buy a U12 get it with Emmons setup, and with 7 pedals and 5 knee levers.

Getting back to the Bobbe Seymour newsletter I would also like to know Bobbe's 10 anti-uni reasons.
My 10 pro-uni reasons.
1) Weight
2) Less strings to change
3) Less strings to tune
4) Extended range on E9th
5) Easy to change style mid song
6) Relative chord positions E9th-B6th
7) Looks better
Less mechanics to go wrong
9) Less electrics to go wrong
10)My favorite steel players play universal
Jeff Newman
BJ Cole
Robert Randolph
Joe Wright
Mourice Anderson
www.alancook.net

I'd love to spend time with a 12-string steel, but I committed to a D10 many years ago. In my case, Larry's probably right - I was following the example set by the majority of the best players, and I make no excuse for this. I took up steel after many years of 6-string playing, and was too intimidated by the apparent complexity of PSG to even consider forging my own direction back in those days.... (it was only going to be a five-minute wonder for me, or so I thought!)

I'm comfortable on a D10 now, but there's a tiny voice inside me urging me to 'have a go'. The problems, though, are twofold: I earn my living doing this, so there's no time to retreat to the woodshed, and: these things are expensive! It'd be a big outlay, though I guess I'd probably get my money back if I didn't like it.

One thing's certain - I would have to have that low 'D'! It's too integral to my playing for me to have to hold a knee lever in place while using it as a root-note.

Maybe I will look for a modestly-priced S12....

RR

If you can do it all on one neck,why bother with two.

Ron C.

I am in the unusual position of being a steel player who started out playing being unconcerned with country music. I played a U12 for about 5 years untill I spent time with a D 10. I think the U12 is great in theory and weak in practice. I feel like i wasted quite a bit of time with the U12. The reason the U12 has not caught on is because most pro level players don't like it. Believe me, the guys that play for a living would be happy to switch to anything that was actually better. But its not. And it has not and is not catching on. The U12 is not a new idea. Its been at least 20 or 30 years. A few major builders don't even bother offering a 12 string and of the guys that will make a 12st steel build maybe 1 for every 20. And about half of those 12st steels they did build where for some sort of extended E9.



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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Having thought it through a bit more since that last post of mine, I guess what I'd like is more lower-end range on E9.

How much practical use that would be within the confines of a band is open to question, but it would be fun when I'm just entertaining myself in my practice-room.

I think Bob Hoffnar makes a good point. 12 string guitars have been around for a long time now, yet they seem to have no more than a toe-hold on the market. In my case (I still play 80%/20% in favour of E9), an extended E9 with some B6th options might give me all I'd need.

I dunno.....

RR

Bob, With that said, in the here and now, you would wail on an S12U Dude!

First 5 years wasted?... With all due respect, you would of sucked on D10 for the first five years too. It happened to the best of us no matter what config played!

Plenty of Pro's play U12, including some of the biggest names in the Texas steel community.

It is cleary "catching on" with the general steel playing public, even though the masters are sticking with their bread and butter. It's all good!

S12U is simply a better idea for many players buying steels today.

FWIW, every thing I've heard you play Live, and on the CD's you gave me, can be done on an S12U all day long.

As a matter of fact, you would be a perfect candidate to go from D10 to S12U knowing what you now know, as many of the best S12U players came from D10 backgrounds.

These are just the facts, no?... please don't kill the messenger.
Pete Burak


<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 09 February 2006 at 09:28 AM.]</p></FONT>

Um, Alan, RR doesn't play a uni, he plays an E7, with double middle Es. It's the blues/gospel tuning derived from Chuck Campbell. Which brings me to my point. There are really 4 tuning families being used on pedal steels these days: E9, C6, universal, E7 Sacred Steel. They are associated with different kinds of music.

Except for Bob Hoffman, the naysayers of the uni are all traditional country and/or Western swing pickers. They want the necks separate, and they want at least 5 independent knee levers per neck. They do not want to give up even one of their lick levers. That may never change.

But the uni is far from a failed experiment that has outlived itself. It seems to have a growing following among the non-country/swing players of rock, blues, jazz, classical, and experimental music. They do not miss the one or two country lick levers, but instead appreciate all the versatility and extra strings and voicings that are not available on a D10. A uni is especially appreciated by people like me, who play all the non-country genres, but also enjoy getting the 90% of tradional E9 and C6 available, for when we do want to play traditional country and swing. After all, many traditional country and swing pickers have only 4 levers between the two necks, and a uni can have 100% of that. So I look upon the universal as a third tuning in it's own right, that incidentally embodies most of traditional E9 and C6.

Sacred Steel E7 is a fourth tuning. Again, there are specialty licks with it that are not available on any of the other tunings. But here again, I think a uni can get 90% of that, plus all the E9 and C6 stuff not available.

What the uni can do is get more of the licks of all the others than any of the others can. Of the 4 tunings, the uni is clearly the most universal. So at this point, for me, the uni has 270% compared to the other three tunings. The main thing the uni is missing is a charismatic virtuoso proponent with national recognition. Regardless of their technical and musical abilities, even the top uni players do not have the recognition of the top D10 country and E7 Sacred Steelers. Maybe it is just an historical accident. But I don't think the uni will really take off until a very top and very prominent steeler shows what can be done on a uni that can't be done on anything else. I would like to think it is just a matter of time, but who knows. There may have been plenty of virtuoso accordion players, but who cares?

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<font size="1">Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David Doggett on 09 February 2006 at 12:52 PM.]</p></FONT>

I wouldn't be too quick to judge the S-12's capabilities by sales alone. I believe most new players pick a D-10 because that's what most players play and there's more instructional material for it.

Very few ever consider an S-12 because most have never heard of one until after their well on their way with a D-10 and don't want to change horses in mid stream.

There's no way to know for sure, but I would guess that 75% of all non-pro D-10 players can't play hardly anything on the C6th neck. In fact, I only know 1 non-pro who can play the C6 proficiently.

I still contend that the only limitations of the S-12 comes from the player & not the instrument. There's a long list of players who can prove that to be a fact!

well one thing i think we can agree on is:
anyone sitting behind a D-10 just looks impressive

<SMALL>But I wonder how many of those that are seeking that extra music down there under the B string have actually conquered the music available above the B string ? </SMALL>

I don't think that's a valid issue. On the real bandstand, there are many times when low notes are very useful, whether you're a great player on the high strings or not. I've spent much of my life playing in 4-piece bands. When the guitar player takes his solo, I'm expected to fill that hole under him. It sounds goofy if I don't. If I play high notes, I'm likely to get in his way.

Low note rhythm parts are considerably easier, from a technical standpoint, than most solos and fills. It's a technique that, once mastered, will get you more work as a sideman. It's not flashy but it adds a lot to a band's overall sound and texture. The other musicians in the band will appreciate it.

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)   My Blog </font>

Good point, Bobby, and one I have prescribed to, also. But when playing chordal vamps in that register, be mindful of the bass player's passages or you might "step" on his or her toes and catch a Fender peghead in the parietal lobe.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 09 February 2006 at 02:41 PM.]</p></FONT>