Will more pedals an knee leavers make you a pro faster?

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 11 Jun 2018 1:00 pm

Lloyd Green.

Peace out.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Jun 2018 1:06 pm

It's silly season, sorry.

How about we play the Jimmy Crawford card here as well, or how about the Buddy Emmons card, or the Tommy White card ? and obviously the PF card.

Are they also not masters ?

One of my favorite forum quotes is "If it's good enough for Lloyd it's good enough for me "

What does that even mean ? There is only ONE Lloyd Green and there is only going to be ONE Lloyd Green.

The entire thread has gone off into the land of you don't need this or that .

It's probable that we do have a group of players here carrying around knee levers they don't ever use and maybe never will, but I also bet we have a group who do.

It's also probable that more than 50% of us carry around the C pedal as well, hardly ever used. Should we remove it from the Instrument ?

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 11 Jun 2018 2:37 pm

It really is about what each individual player wants to get out of the instrument. If someone who has been playing for a long time wants to keep expanding his or her harmonic capabilities by experimenting with different pedals or KLs, or styles of music, or different approaches to executing those styles... why not??? It should never be forgotten that tinkering and experimentation is a big part of the rich heritage of our chosen instrument. The beautiful voice of the steel can be done on one string if need be, without anything but the technical command and soulful touch of a great musician's bar hand. Think dobro, lap steel, Indian slide masters, "diddley bow" etc. But if we're talking about the Pedal Steel Guitar, it's important to draw from what's already been done by the early masters and study their legacy, when the technology and new ideas were in the instrument's infancy... but we should NOT exclude ANY form of music and any style of playing that someone might be naturally drawn to. A true musician will follow their heart no matter what... whether they're on a narrow or wide path.
I agree that for playing classic country music, and some pop, blues, and country rock, it's really a good idea to learn how to navigate through it all starting with a basic E9 setup. Learning how to stay between the lines and play what's appropriate to best serve the music should be a no brainer that unfortunately some will never get. Simplicity is a beautiful thing in many wonderful types of music, but IMO LESS curiosity, experimentation, and openness to new ideas, equals MORE of what's already been done.... and done very well, and often by many, many great players. That's an honorable goal for us all, but Music is a big universe that can't be confined by what you or I perceive it to be.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 11 Jun 2018 3:06 pm

This thread is about how to become a pro the fastest way possible. It's not about the relative benefits of a minimalist set-up versus a more expansive set up for a player that is already a pro.

I use 4 floor pedals and 5 knee levers on E9, so I'm not opposed to going beyond the basic 3 & 4. And I never said I was. But a person trying to reach a pro level, however they may define that, must first develop the touch, tone and intonation of a pro player. Once they are relatively comfortable with all that, then expand and experiment to your heart's content with tunings, pedals and levers. But in the beginning, focus on the fundamentals, not the frills.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 11 Jun 2018 6:21 pm

Paul Sutherland wrote:This thread is about how to become a pro the fastest way possible. It's not about the relative benefits of a minimalist set-up versus a more expansive set up for a player that is already a pro.

I use 4 floor pedals and 5 knee levers on E9, so I'm not opposed to going beyond the basic 3 & 4. And I never said I was. But a person trying to reach a pro level, however they may define that, must first develop the touch, tone and intonation of a pro player. Once they are relatively comfortable with all that, then expand and experiment to your heart's content with tunings, pedals and levers. But in the beginning, focus on the fundamentals, not the frills.

No. His question only mentioned pedals and knee levers. Not technique or anything else.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 11 Jun 2018 7:50 pm

I believe the original title/post/question was a rhetorical question. So I feel free to go wherever I want within that context.

I don't think the only, or even main issue is, "What setup should someone start on?". There are a lot of reasonable options for starters. To me, the biggest thing is that a beginner's pedal steel should have stable tuning, ergonomically fit the player, and the pedal/lever changes it does have should work with reasonable pressure, have solid stops, come back to pitch, and be reasonably capable of doing the type of music the player aspires to.

But I think if we're talking about optimally learning pedal steel, I think it should have a "reasonably complete" system so the player gets used to the ergonomics of working with bar, picks, pedals, levers, and volume pedal early. I see no particular reason to delay that - the earlier started, the longer one gets "time-on-task". I had to learn on a guitar with 3+1 but was way too small for me, so I basically couldn't work even the one lever. It was a couple of years before I got something on which I could work the levers, and I think it inhibited my learning significantly. Most pedal steel players play with a bar, thumb pick and finger picks, multiple pedals and levers, and a volume pedal - that is the game most of us are playing.

I also don't think the main issue is whether or not more or less levers have "enough music" in them. I don't think one person on this thread has stated that there's not plenty of music in a basic E9 pedal steel setup, even 3+1. But IMO, a minimal "reasonably complete" standard E9 setup is at least 3+3 (some form of E-raise, E-lower, and string 2/9 lowers). Less than that, you're not playing with a full deck and will probably have to upgrade to learn the basics. At least, if we want to talk about learning E9 pedal steel. I know some people want to play lap/console steel with a bit of assist. No problem, but I don't think that goes to this discussion.

I also think it matters a lot what type of player someone wants to be. Again, nobody is arguing that there aren't ways to do lots of stuff with minimal setups. But I think the modern "standard E9" is 3+5 or even 4+5. I think there's a reason for this. IMO, more pedals and levers make some things easier, not harder, and that can make early learning more fun and even productive. I don't really think 3+5 or 4+5 is so complex to completely mystify plenty of players, even starting out. Nor do I think that having an extra pedal/lever or two means you can't learn the basics. Their presence simply gives the option of using them, or not using them.

Again, I don't think there is any substitute for "time-on-task". To me, better to get used to the complexity early on, but of course focus on the basic skills at the beginning. I have a hard time imagining most beginners doing a lot more than basic bar/pick/blocking technique with A/B pedals-up/pedals-down for quite some time, regardless of what's on the guitar. But people have different goals, and make progress at different rates - and having a complete system gives more options to explore once someone gets to that point.

On really complex setups - 9+9 or even 10+10 Crawford clusters and so on - isn't most of that additional firepower aimed at C6? The most complex E9 setup I've ever had is 4+6, which I really like and have been finding uses for. But I see definite advantages to having most if not all of those extra C6 levers decoupled from E9, just from a mechanical point of view.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 12 Jun 2018 12:54 am

here's the original question, its related to to learning FASTER with an advanced setup and has nothing to do with style, execution , intonation etc...

It wasn't even related to a Starter Steel .

"Iâ€™m thinking of Adding the Jimmy Crawford knee leaver cluster an more pedals to my steel would this put me on the fast track to become a super Pro player"

and of course the answer is NO. The answer is hard work, consistent and appropriate study, practice and seat time.

It makes no difference to me what specific setup someone selects for themselves, what does get my attention is someone advising another person whats best based on what they may be acclimated to. RE: 3+3 is enough for me so you don't need more than that.

I'm not a Master, not even a PRO , I don't even suggest that I am, but I have a reasonable command of whats in front of me. The few students I have ask about certain "lever phrases/uses " and when they hear them they are as exited about learning their use or adding them to their Steels as they were about hearing the AB pedals from day one which caused them to buy the Instrument .

There is no such thing as ENOUGH in music. That word describes the PLAYERS ability, not the Instrument.

The age old guitar players joke

"My guitar didn't come with that lick" , we all would laugh

TRUTH

yeh it did come with that lick, we just didn't work hard enough to draw it out , and we knew it.

If ONE lever added allows playing phrases in a redundant ( alternative ) position, thats a plus, not a minus. It may just allow a player who is consistently studying to be able to play and create in "the pocket" rather than return to a stock position .

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 12 Jun 2018 5:16 am

This is not a question posed by a beginner seeking honest answers. By the author's own admission, it was not a serious one.

I felt it was just to titillate and provoke.

A perhaps tongue in cheek jab and poking fun at those of us who have loaded up pedal steel guitars. I took exception to that notion and that's why I responded the way I did.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Jun 2018 6:43 am

Point of view is everything...

A perhaps tongue in cheek jab and poking fun at those of us who have loaded up pedal steel guitars. I took exception to that notion and that's why I responded the way I did.

Yeah, everything upsets somebody. People who advocate "more" is what you need are no more correct than people who say "you really don't need that". There are two camps, here. The first is beginner-to-intermediate players, and the second is advanced-to-expert players. The former may want all the bells and whistles, but they really don't need them. The later is players who feel they want and need a certain minimum to play what they want to play. Who's the better E9th player, Jimmy Crawford or Lloyd Green? That's a rhetorical question, and the answer may be different for different people. But, it's important to keep in mind that when players say it's better to start with the basics, what they're saying (or rather, what most of them are saying) is that you don't need to start with the maximum complement. Learn the basics, first! Yeah, we've had a host of memorable players, but there are still things that haven't been done yet on simple 3+2 setup. Anyone who says that they've gone as far as they can go with that setup is really saying "there may be more there, but I don't see it". What we don't see and what we can't play is the limiting factor that separates the beginner/intermediate guys from the advanced/expert guys.

I started with an 8+2, and then thought I'd impress people by adding 6 more levers. Wrong! For me, there was nothing more humbling (and embarrassing) than having a ton of guitar, and having a great player (with far less guitar) set up beside me and play more, and play better. I've had that experience twice - once with Don West, and once with Big Jim Murphy. It was then I finally knew that whether you've got 1 lever or 6, whether you've got 2 pedals or 10, it's what you can do with them that counts.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 12 Jun 2018 8:06 am

... there are still things that haven't been done yet on simple 3+2 setup. Anyone who says that they've gone as far as they can go with that setup is really saying "there may be more there, but I don't see it". What we don't see and what we can't play is the limiting factor that separates the beginner/intermediate guys from the advanced/expert guys.

No argument there, Donny. BTW, note that I didn't say that when one is ready for more guitar it follows that one has fully explored what one already has. I think there's always something new to learn on practically any instrument one has. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's not reasonable to add more options. To me, common sense dictates a lot of this. I think it's reasonable to add additional hardware if one has a vision for what to do with it.

But let me try to synopsize what I took a long time to say earlier. I think that in learning E9 pedal steel, I, personally, would have been better served having a really good guitar with a full modern setup (say 3+5 or 4+5), set up correctly and for my tall frame, right from the get-go. I speak for nobody else, but I suspect there are others like me.

For me, there was nothing more humbling (and embarrassing) than having a ton of guitar, and having a great player (with far less guitar) set up beside me and play more, and play better.

Humbling, definitely. But I'm not gonna be embarrassed by someone who plays rings around me, or I find has superior ability at some particular thing. It happens to me all the time in various endeavors. In my life, I've done what I can on a number of fronts, and there's always gonna be someone better at some particular thing than I am, no matter how much I progress. The challenges never end until I'm underground.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 12 Jun 2018 12:26 pm

Dave +1

Nobody is arguing about who's better, who's worse or what Steel configuration we each may have.

It's never about WHO's better or how good we are compared to another , it' should always be about can we improve and always playing to the best of our ability . How many knee levers we have has nothing to do with it.

I don't much care if someone sets up next to me and can play circles around me with a lessor setup, , what does that have to do with how I am learning with the configuration in front of me ? Nothing.

I seriously doubt that everyone here has explored every option available to them with each raise or lower. I know I have not and I don't care to either. I seek, explore and figure it out along the way. Adding a phrase or two here and there as I am studying.

Nobody has claimed that they have reached euphoria with a simple setup. Maybe it's as simple as adding a lever for a pull which allows a player to stay IN POSITION rather than seek the same thing 4 frets away. Kinda like moving ONE finger on the guitar fret board to change the chord voicing.

It's music, it's about each individual creating. How we create is personal, it's not a rule.

being a guitar player for 50 years, one of the things you learn early on is someone just walked in the door who's better than you ! Big deal !

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Jun 2018 12:28 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote:...there's always gonna be someone better at some particular thing than I am, no matter how much I progress.

And because music is so complex and hard to quantify, I think that's what makes us keep trying. Let's face it, there are certain things that you can honestly and truly be the best in the world at...but music isn't one of them. $:\$

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 12 Jun 2018 12:56 pm

The way I look at it is, if you want to play to other musicians and steel players, by all means, get those extra knee levers and pedals, how ever, I think after 7 levers and 9 pedals, it gets a little confusing. If you want to play just to the country music lovers and steel guitar lovers(that donâ€™t play) then, 8 and 4 on a D-10 is plenty, in fact, 8&2 will work just fine and they wonâ€™t know the difference. Iâ€™m sure you all know about opinions, but that is mine.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 12 Jun 2018 2:37 pm

If you were taking a hike in the mountains and you were stopped by another hiker who asked:

"Is the Canyon Trail the quickest way to get to Spirit Lake?"

And you answered:

"No, the quickest path is the Meadow Trail."

Would you expect to be thanked for your helpful information, or criticized because the question only mentioned the Canyon Trail?

Was your response really off-topic and unresponsive to the inquiry?

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 12 Jun 2018 4:15 pm

They'll have to pry my 7th string whole step raise out of my cold dead hands!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Jun 2018 5:50 pm

Tony Prior wrote:Dave +1

It's never about WHO's better or how good we are compared to another...I don't much care if someone sets up next to me and can play circles around me with a lessor setup...

Until...he takes your job.

~

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 12 Jun 2018 6:16 pm

I think Johnie should have posted this in the Funny And Fun section.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 12 Jun 2018 8:14 pm

get as many knee levers as you want..the nice thing about knee levers is that you do not have to have them all extended..just extend the ones you are going to use for the job..but when you are working out very complicated chord progressions at home you have the tools to do the job...7 or 8 knee levers on a D-10 should be enough to get all the chords you will ever need.

Don Ricketson · Post by **Don Ricketson** » 12 Jun 2018 8:26 pm

Guys, Johnie said right off the bat he was being facetious.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 Jun 2018 1:06 am

Donny Hinson wrote:
Tony Prior wrote:Dave +1

It's never about WHO's better or how good we are compared to another...I don't much care if someone sets up next to me and can play circles around me with a lessor setup...
Until...he takes your job.

~

well over the last 50 years of gigging thats never happened to me . Playing MUSIC is one thing, being a quality respected musician that fits in with the band (s) is quite another.

If a band decides to FIRE me because someone else sat in and played Together Again better than me, then thats not actually a band I would want to play in or a band I would want to hang with.

If it's happened to you, sorry to hear it.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 13 Jun 2018 7:48 am

Don Ricketson wrote:Guys, Johnie said right off the bat he was being facetious.

Yes, but it is still a good topic to discuss as there are most likely many players who think that way. It's always good to discuss issues that newer players (and even older) players have questions about. Although these topics may have been discussed to death, there are many who weren't members, or some that were existing members, that didn't see those posts.

If it was only meant to be a joke, then it probably should have been posted in the Funny and Fun section.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 13 Jun 2018 8:07 am

If there werenâ€™t so many serious and well articulated responses, it probably would have been moved to Funny And Fun. Public discourse has at times become a matter of taking ridiculous ideas seriously.

John Goux · Post by **John Goux** » 13 Jun 2018 3:15 pm

Oh, I think I get it! You are saying the old ways are better?!
J

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 13 Jun 2018 3:28 pm

Donny Hinson wrote:
Tony Prior wrote:Dave +1

It's never about WHO's better or how good we are compared to another...I don't much care if someone sets up next to me and can play circles around me with a lessor setup...
Until...he takes your job.

~

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 13 Jun 2018 5:53 pm

John Goux wrote:Oh, I think I get it! You are saying the old ways are better?!
J

If your comment was in response to mine, John, then no thatâ€™s not what I said and certainly not what I meant at all.