Who has gone back to 10 Stg & why??

Rex Thomas · From: Thompson's Station, TN

Well, as Jim's original topic asked the question "Who has gone back to a 10 stg & why??" As stated below that, it was a matter of getting where I needed to go with less fuss. That S-12 '76 Emmons p/p had TONE. It was a "loafer", by the way. But I'd played a D-10 long enough that the effort to stay practiced on the S-12 wasn't worth it in the long run. Now if/when I could afford both, sure, I'd have an S-12 as well, but the D-10 would have to be the main gtr.

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

When I got my Kline Universal, I had an Emmon's D-10. My idea was to keep playing the Emmon's on the bandstand until I was comfortable with the Kline. Boy, that did not work for me. I sold the Emmon's and jumped right into the Kline. I agree with whoever said it would drive you nuts trying to do both. I have never looked back and could't be happier with the Kline universal.

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

I'm the guy that frowned on a locking lever...the reason is this: if you lock a universal into either E9th or C6 (B6) "mode" you've just lost half your ability to make transition changes. What I'm saying is - why limit yourself to sounding like E9th on one song and C6th on the next...might as well have a double-neck. I like being able to move from one "mode" to another without switching necks in the same lick or run...But, to each his own.............

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Bob Hoffnar- Maybe Emmons and those sacred steel players are onto something.
It seems like the trend is going like you mentioned.
I am using a tuning like that on my S12. I do not use the E9/B6. I just am not comfortable with it.
It is a good tuning for a lot of players, but not for me.
I like playing a double neck, heck I played one in 1940. But now I got pedals. Actually, it would seem that it is easy to go from a S10 to a S12.
Going from a D10 to a S12 ,for most guys would be harder. I find good things about both.
I have a S12 and a D10. Still trying to figure which way to go, but I am leaning to the S12...al

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I didn't mean to jump salty about the locking lever and all,but I spent decades on a D-10 and learned a bunch of stuff on C6 that I would like to play on my universal without holding a lever in for the whole song.Most of the time though,I don't lock it and either play it as an E9 or move freely around the neck as a unified tuning.Besides,just like holding the E to Eb lever in gives you a B6 tuning,if you're locked to B6 you can hit your E to F lever and go back to E9 momentarily.Other times I'll lock it to B6 and play the whole tune w/no pedals like a lap steel.All these approaches are valid to me and I use them all whenever I want.
I just don't see anything intrinsically "wrong" with someone - let's say someone with back problems or any other reason,part of the time or all of the time - wanting to view a locking 12 string universal as a really compact,lightweight guitar with two seperate tunings-as an alternative to an actual D-10 without having to say "Well then,he shoulda stayed on a real double neck". -MJ-

RON PRESTON · From: Dodson, Louisiana, USA

Hey, Dennis...
You forgot to include a Ba%$&@*jo.
Hmmmm....

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

My take on the Lock...

If you have one, you can either use it, or not use it.

If you don't have one, you can only "not" use it.

The lock only effects 2 of 12 strings.

An example:
I play Willie Nelsons "Angel Flying Too Close To The Ground" in the B6th tuning with the lock on.
For the ending I do a run that goes from the 4 chord to the 4min to the one, and I like to use an E9th run on strings 5 and 6 for this using A+B (4 chord) then A+B+LKV (4min chord).
The fact that the lock is on at this time has nothing to do with my ability to play in E9th on the other 10 strings, and in fact the E to Eb lever is a big hitter in my E9th playing so it fits right in either way.
Just one example.

The point being is that you can play in and out of both tunings wether the lock is on or off.
It's a tool to be used to further your exploration of the instrument.

I have two locks on my axe.
The second lock currently raises my F#'s to G, and with A+B down I get a huge 7th chord that is great for classic rock songs, blues, Sacred Steel styles, ect...
I've had a ton of fun playing my favorite Doors songs in this tuning.

Q: If you're standing right in front of a light switch, how long does it take to turn the switch on or off?
A: Less than one second.
This is the case with a change lock also.
I do several tunes where I comp in B6th and solo in E9th (or visa versa) and use the lock accordingly (or don't use it at all).

Talking shop with other U12'ers, I'd say we have more than enough material to write a book on playing the seemingly endless amount of cool stuff that lies in between E9/B6 (The "one big tuning" theory).

I don't disagree with anything anyone else has said in this thread.
Just enjoying another day on the forum and taking in the sharing of ideas and expieriences.

Viva La Forum!
~pb

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 26 March 2002 at 09:44 AM.]

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Good point Pete. Another tool in the arsenal. A good option. Further, if you wanted to add another offset knee lever at that same Eb lever position, the door is open. Slide a few inches forward on the seat and voila!
Dennis

Robert Parent · From: Gillette, WY

I played a D10 for about 15 years before giving a U12 a try. After about three years I decided to go back to a D10. A couple things that I just could not get use to. 1) That missing 9th string D note. I know there are ways to get around is but none of them really worked for me. 2) I had a single neck U12 which just does not feel like a D10. 3) The D10 always had a bit more sustain in my opinion.

The U12 is a nice option and if I were just starting out that is what I would buy without question. I am not against a 12 string and have recently been thinking about giving an extended E9th on a double frame a try.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Pete,
You are absolutely right. I have never played with a lever lock but understand your point. Maybe I ought to try it. Since I added the second string change to the Eb lever I notice more leg fatigue on swingy tunes. It opens up other possibilities, like using other levers on the same knee that you can't get to with the Eb lever engaged.

Good thinking. Well explained.
(and, Dennis, I just happen to have staggered RKLs on one of my guitars -- could be useful. And, FWIW, mine is a few inches BACK of the Eb lever, not foreward)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I'm kind of getting away from the original thread topic, but.. I tune my 2nd string to C#. I raise the C# to D/D# and the B to D with the LKL. The LKL isn't held for a long duration. The Eb lever lowers the two Es. I like having the C# note available for E9th and B6th. I found that I use the C# to D# pull more often in this configuration. Playing styles may vary

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

Interesting idea re the second string. It does get passed over on my guitar a lot since it's duplicated on string 4. Also, I'm beginning to reconsider the lever lock on the E-Eb lever--in its favor.

About the sustain issue: If a 12-string lacks sustain, then a S-10 lacks even more sustain, right? If Tom Brumley and Lloyd Green's playing suffers because of this, then I want that handicap.

Seriously, I think it can be worked around via the volume pedal or maybe using a compression device.

Please don't misunderstand, I don't disagree; I love the sounds that the great D-10 players get but I also love the sounds of the great non-pedal players, the S10 and S11 players too and I can live with the shortcomings of my instrument (S-12U) to enjoy its unique advantages.

You can't drive a big SUV and get great gas mileage, you can't drive a small fun car and feel as safe, you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd . . .

I think this subject is worthy of a special topic on this forum and maybe even a book complete with sample CD. I've heard some of the stuff you guys are playing on your various websites and I'd love for newcomers to know more about it. Maybe the reason there aren't more S-12 players is that the internet wasn't around when it was all getting started. We can fix that.

Here's to lively discussion of a fascinating subject, cheers!

--JR

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

Wow! Have I ever been told off....and, judging from the logic you present, rightly so. It never even occurred to me that the E-F raise would overcome the E-lower lock (stupid!!!!). Since I've never played a guitar with a locking lever, just didn't see the advantage to one. I'm embarrassed and apologize for having my foot deeply embedded in my mouth!!

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I forgot to mention the down side of the Lock...

And this is certain Impending DOOM!!!... for Lock Heads like me.

O.K.
You kick off a tune with a steel intro, and within about 2 seconds you realize that the lock is on (or one of your locks is on)... and it's supposed to be OFF!
Rendering the lick you are in the middle of playing a dissodant abomanation of E9th technique (Ouch!... bad trip!).

I hate when that happens.

Paul Crawford · From: Orlando, Fl

Being a relatively new player, I went the other way. I basically started on a U12, (got one after just a few months of playing), but then moved onto the D-10 and never looked back. But mine is for a completely different reason than has been stated here, the expanded C6th.

Most of the comments and comparision I've heard is "playing some C6th on an E9th tuning." I guess that's right since I had everything and much more on E9th with my universal tuning. But there were several things I could put on an expanded C6th, (I play a 5/4 C6th neck), that I just couldn't get on a Universal, at least not with only two legs.

As a fan of Western Swing, Swing, Jazz, and Big Band music, the C6th neck is my home and E9th is there for a "country sound." For those most interested in the big neck, I think the dedicated C6th has given up to some compromises in the U12 tuning.

Student opinion only, your mileage may vary. Offer not valid in Utah or Nebraska. Consult your doctor before starting any excersise program.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Some may maintain that E9/B6 is a comprimise and others think keeping the tunings seperate is a bigger comprimise.In reality,I think that even if you had a dedicated single neck C6 12 string,there are still more changes that have been devised by great players than you could ever get on there.Even if you had 10+10,you'd still have to leave some interesting changes out.Same thing on a loaded U-12,you still have to leave something out.But the point most people miss about E9/B6 is that it adds up to more than the sum of its parts - you gain more than you lose.The question each player must ask is - what tuning and combination of changes allows you to play what you want to play.For Lloyd Green,a 10 string w/3+4 is plenty.In the case of Jerry Byrd,he plays what he wants to play w/no changes and could play more music on a 2 string,no-pedal guitar than most of us ever will on our contraptions with "comprimised" tunings. -MJ-

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Oops...
I just read the title of this thread.

I have a Blonde S10 3x2 Sho-Bud Pro I which is converted to a B6th tuning.
It was originally a 3x1 E9th tuning.

I keep it set up all the time because it looks so cool and is fun to play.

I "go back to it" fairly regularly here at the house, but haven't gigged with it since it was E9th, and even then, the last gig I did with that axe was around '82.

It was/is my first steel!

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Pete-as you so well said. a lock can be turned on of off easily. So what is the problem.? As he says, you can get into E9 even with the lock on, or the Eb lever in, by using the F lever.

One thing is when builder builds a U12 new guitar, he should install the lock as standard equipment.
Sierra does It, Excel, an probably a few others, does it as a standard installation.

Use it or not, it should be up to the Player.
Good pros and cons for both D10's and U12's, but I prefer a S12 with my tuning on it.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

John Ummel · From: Arlington, WA.

I played an Excel U12 E9/B6 for several years. Overall it was fine. But I've gone back to a standard 10 string for 2 main reasons. 1) I missed the 9th string D. Although I had a knee to lower 8th string to D, it just isn't the same. 2) I didn't like the "feel/action" of the B pedal with the low G#-A pull added to it. Just felt too "heavy". Maybe some newer U12's are better about this than my old Excel was.

Bill Moran · From: Virginia, USA

Jim::

Old dogs don't learn new tricks well !!

Bill

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

I forgot I even started this thread it been so long now!! LOL
I got my PP back from Mike Cass,and I love having her back in perfect shape again. I also have been playing my SD-10 Fessy quite a lot too. With the pad, it's the same body positions as playing the front neck of my D-10 and I suck on C6 anyway. Just an old country rocker I guess. But I also have picked up an SD-12 MSA with 4/4 that I'm using for Extended E9th and as an "idea" guitar because I can try out an idea for a change with out having to rebuilt the RR and if I don't like it, 20min's under the hood and Im back where I started from.
JE:-)>

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Emmons D10 8/4 P/P -75'
Fessenden SD-10 3/5
MSA SD-12 4/4 - 76'
76'Session 400
86'Nashville 400
Bandit 112

Barry Blackwood · Posted 1 Nov 2005 4:54 pm

Is there any such thing as a SHORT answer here?

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

yes.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I played S-12 E9th for 20 years before I decided I wanted to learn C6th. I tried several D-10 guitars but I couldn't get used to 10 strings. I've had low notes on my E9th for so long. I didn't want to lose that aspect of the tuning.

So I finally bought a D-12 last year. The best of both worlds, in my opinion.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Billy Wilson · From: El Cerrito, California, USA

I just finished trying out 12 string E9th, B6th universal tuning for about a year. I liked it but felt like I was missing an old friend: C6th. Most of C6th is there on the uni but I felt like I was straining to get what was easier before. I went to a D12, extended E9th and C6th. This is alot more fun for me. I do miss a few things from uni that I cannot get anymore.

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