The Steel Guitar Forum

Jack Hanson wrote:My apologies to whoever was first to post this, but it would seem to apply here. In spades.

Jack,

No apology necessary. I uhderstand what you mean. As I stated above, I knew what I was getting into when I posted this. I was more than a little hesitant for that reason. However, quite to the contrary, I think the commentary has been extermely constructive and beneficial. As far as I'm concerned, those replying have done so honestly and professionally without sniping or taking pot shots at one another. I could not have hoped for better.

Thanks again, everyone.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... light=bolt

No need to get too deep in the weeds about it, just try one. Amazing tone from these guitars. You may really love it or not. Life's short why not.
The guitar I posted above...unreal that this has not moved. I've got two like it already and don't need a third... although I'm still haunted by it..

This is a fascinating thread. I've never owned a push-pull and likely never will, so mostly what I have are theoretical questions about this tone issue. I appreciate that some have tried to describe the push-pull tone as having more treble or more attach. That's really helpful. My question is how the changer mechanism could possibly affect tone. Theoretically, whatever contributes to tone would occur between the rollers and the nut: pickup, picking technique, string type, resonance of the neck, etc. How could a different mechanism possibly change the tone of the instrument? One answer could be that people describe how heavy push-pull guitars are, and maybe that weight translates to less energy bleed when a string is plucked?

The tone is what keeps you coming back to them. I have an ST-12 that just sings when I take it to a gig. Once you have it set up properly, you are often "good to go". It doesn't drift as much with its tuning as an all-pull.

It has inspired me to play a little over my head at times during a gig because it can sound that sweet. In my experience, nothing else sounds or feels like one that's set up well and in prime operating condition. It's worth the effort if you can accept it mechanically for what it is.

Push pulls are best for tone, staying in tune, dependability plus they are georgous to look at and properly set up, play and feel great. But if you don't understand how they work and how to work on them , don't get one. There are so many myths about them that some are actually affraid of them. I think they are the best all around guitar ever built, barring none but not for everyone.

Jim,
I have played a couple p/p’s and owned one pull/release and several all pulls. I have Junior Knight’s old lacquer 1995 pre RP that Mickey Adams has overhauled twice in its lifetime and it is the benchmark from which I compare any other to as far as ease of pedal and lever action and tone....man butter ain’t in it lol. One of the p/p’s I played was a 65 wraparound I believe. The other was a 74 D10 that Bryan Adams built that was an 8 & 10 setup. Both of these guitars came closer to the Mullen than any other regarding action and both held tune literally forever. Tone? To me they had that “Emmons Push-Pull TONE” that my Mullen didn’t have. To my ear it was a twang in the highs and resonant growl in the mids....what I call a “growly twang” that to my ear the good p/p’s seem to have that many or most all pull’s don’t. Yes, granted, action wise and holding tune a lot will depend on who built or rebuilt it, but had I had the money to buy either of those I’ve played especially the Bryan Adams 8 & 10 I’d have snatched them up no questions. Id love to have a p/p.

It's an interesting discussion and good points have been made.

Earlier Steve Takacs mentioned Buddy Emmons' tone on his 'Christmas Sounds of the Steel Guitar'. That, for me at least, is my favourite tone. While I struggle to replicate it that is the 'standard reference point' in my head when I'm trying to find my tonal 'Shangri-la'.

Buddy is my favourite steel player bar none but, while I love what he plays on, for example, Roger Miller's 'Tall, Tall Trees' (is that on 'A Trip in the Country'?) I can't abide that nasally tone. I guess that's what people considered the 'standard' in those days. (Feel free to file these remarks in the SGF 'Heresy' file!)

Based on this I've never seriously considered a push/pull. Along with its mechanical challenges and its weight (my LeGrande's heavy enough for me!) there are too many negatives.

Brandon Schafer wrote:The tone is what keeps you coming back to them. I have an ST-12 that just sings when I take it to a gig. Once you have it set up properly, you are often "good to go". It doesn't drift as much with its tuning as an all-pull.

It has inspired me to play a little over my head at times during a gig because it can sound that sweet. In my experience, nothing else sounds or feels like one that's set up well and in prime operating condition. It's worth the effort if you can accept it mechanically for what it is.

Hi Brandon,

Good to hear that you're still enjoying your Emmons ST-12. Had any feedback from Pete Townsend and his D-10 PP?

The Who's Pete Townsend?

I'd answer the OP's questions as 1. it depends, 2. true, and 3. true.

I've played PP guitars since 1982; before that, Sho~Bud. Can a PP play as easy as a Mullen G2? I've never found one that can, but then again... just how "easy" do you have to have your guitar play? So easy that the very touch of your foot brushing the pedal actuates the string and makes the chord ever-so-slightly out of tune?

I'd venture to say that unless you're in the speed category of Mike Sigler, Travis Toy, or Doug Jernigan, the guitar isn't what's holding you back.

In my decades of experience the PP guitar, properly set up, is a close to "set it and forget it" as any steel made. Just a tweak of the open string tuning, if that, is all that's needed at the beginning of the night. Sometimes not even that, though I do usually go through the formality.

I have no problems playing PP guitars whatsoever if they are clean, lubed and set up correctly. That does not include guitars that have been ignored for years, never cleaned or lubed, and have been jacked with by some shade-tree guy who didn't know his rear from his elbow about steel mechanics.

All things being equal, the tuning stability of my workhorse PP guitars (over 12 of them over the years) exceeded that of any AP guitar I've personally owned or played professionally. Those include Sho~Bud, Mullen, Fessenden, and Emmons LeGrande guitars.

That said, I have been playing an Infinity guitar for the past 3 years. The reason? My two D-10 PP's are both over 50 years old and are 1964 and 1965 wraparounds. They're in great playable condition and frankly just too valuable to me to have them in harm's way sitting in an SUV or on a bandstand where drunk dancers can fall into them (it happened to me one night). So I play them here at the house and also on certain gigs where they're the obvious guitar of choice for the event.

The Infinity: I love the tone and feel of the Infinity, just the right amount of foot pressure on the pedals is needed; no more no less. The tone on strings 1-6 is that sweet, transparent, definitely "there" but not harsh tonality that I love, like my '65 wrap. And it's the most "in tune" out of the box AP guitar in terms of returning to pitch quickly I've experienced. But by no means have I abandoned the PP; I've played S-10 PPs on dates where I've flown, such as the SWSGA steel show and with great results.

I reserve the right to switch back to my Emmons guitars without further notice, and I don't want any backtalk, okay?.

Roger Rettig wrote:It's an interesting discussion and good points have been made.

Earlier Steve Takacs mentioned Buddy Emmons' tone on his 'Christmas Sounds of the Steel Guitar'. That, for me at least, is my favourite tone. While I struggle to replicate it that is the 'standard reference point' in my head when I'm trying to find my tonal 'Shangri-la'.

I could be mistaken, but I believe the guitar Buddy used on the Christmas album was his white Sierra D-10.

It could be, Herb; I've always assumed it was the EMCI because that's what he's posed with on the sleeve. Hardly conclusive!

What I don't think has been mentioned much is the feeling of that physical connection you feel when you play a p/p. As smooth and as easy as all A/P guitars play, they all kind of lack - in my opinion - that physical thing you feel with a p/p. Mike Scaggs termed it well... it kind of pushes back at you.

And again, please...JMHO.

Jim, sent you a PM.

Herb,
I’m pretty confident that the guitar on the Christmas sounds album was the Rosewood EMCI. Big E did a concert and seminar for the PSGA the year he had just completed the Christmas album and Peggy he was selling them at the Murch table. He even wore the red Izod sweater that he’s wearing on the album cover the day of the concert. During the seminar he was speaking about how initially he felt that the tone on the album was too dark, but decided that overall it was a good commercial steel guitar tone for that album. There’s an understatement if I ever heard one!

Now, see? I like 'dark'!

Well then, the EMCI it is!!

Lynn,

Yes, I love that ST-12. I have come to the conclusion that it is just the best steel for what I do, thanks to your handiwork! I need to get my D-12 to you when you've got a bit of room in your schedule. I hope you are having a great 2018 so far!

Mike,

Yes... That Pete Townshend. I had an Emmons D-10 that I let go of when I switched to using 12 strings. Pete Townshend of all people bought it from me.

Both,

The only feedback I got from him was that he thought it was a great instrument (it was restored by Lynn) and understood why I wouldn't sell it for less than a premium. He tried to offer me less than I was asking and I refused his initial offer. That's all I heard, but it sure was interesting making that deal happen!

Responding to Larry Wayte: I disagree that tone is only affected by what happens between the rollers and the nut (I assume you meant the bridge). The whole guitar affects tone, including the changer and the linkage for pedals and lever. Steel cross shafts weigh a bit more but definitely sound different than aluminum cross shafts.

On a push-pull the changer fingers rest against either the body or the end plate at all times (except when using a half tone tuner as in the E to F on string 4). So there is a solid feel to pedals and levers, a solid stop for all raises and lowers, and a solid transfer of energy from the string to the body.

On an all pull guitar the changer is essentially free floating. That has to have an affect on the string. If the changer is vibrating, it's dissipating the energy of the string. I bet that's what is happening. I'm not an engineer, but I can hear a difference.

To me, a person can get just as much treble out of an all pull guitar as a push-pull. So more treble is not really the issue. It's the attack that is sharper with the push-pull. That's why the push-pull has more clarity and cuts through in a cluttered sound stage. Playing a push-pull on stage with a band is when you really come to appreciate the guitar.

Finally, the repeated comments about push-pulls being heavier seem very off base. PPs might be a bit heavier, but not by much. There are some super light guitar out there, but they never sound as good to me. Just get split cases for a D10 PP and you have an incredible combo.

Great thread. Yes the Christmas album was a rosewood EMCI into a ProfexII. I have a couple legendary all-pull guitars, they do play and sound great, but Buddy always told me to "hang on" to my push pull, "there's something magic in there"

Skip Edwards wrote:What I don't think has been mentioned much is the feeling of that physical connection you feel when you play a p/p. As smooth and as easy as all A/P guitars play, they all kind of lack - in my opinion - that physical thing you feel with a p/p. Mike Scaggs termed it well... it kind of pushes back at you.

And again, please...JMHO.

My sentiment as well, and a large part of the whole “PP experience” IMHO.

I'm probably not qualified to comment as I've owned only Emmons P/P's since 2000 and Fender 400s before that, but the tone of my D10 is just fabulous to my ears and it matters not what amp I play it through. Beautiful, crystalline tone. And it does fight back a bit!

Larry Wayte wrote: My question is how the changer mechanism could possibly affect tone...How could a different mechanism possibly change the tone of the instrument?

A few I can think of:

1. The mass of the changer
2. The material(s) it's made of
3. The way it's mounted
4. How many pieces make up the changer
5. How the strings attach to the fingers
6. How long the fingers are overall
7. How the fingers are tied to the pull rods
8. The axle material and size
9. The height of the changer above the deck
10. The materials that are used as spacers between the fingers

I'm sure there are some that I didn't think of.

Roger Rettig wrote:Earlier Steve Takacs mentioned Buddy Emmons' tone on his 'Christmas Sounds of the Steel Guitar'. That, for me at least, is my favourite tone. While I struggle to replicate it that is the 'standard reference point' in my head when I'm trying to find my tonal 'Shangri-la'.

Buddy is my favourite steel player bar none but, while I love what he plays on, for example, Roger Miller's 'Tall, Tall Trees' (is that on 'A Trip in the Country'?) I can't abide that nasally tone. I guess that's what people considered the 'standard' in those days. (Feel free to file these remarks in the SGF 'Heresy' file!)

Based on this I've never seriously considered a push/pull. Along with its mechanical challenges and its weight (my LeGrande's heavy enough for me!) there are too many negatives.

A lot depends on what happens to the signal after it leaves the guitar.

The one time I saw Buddy E. play live was in 1984 at Craig Baker's Steel Session in Pennsylvania (also performing: Doug Jernigan, Herby Wallace, Winnie Winston, and Thumbs Carllile!) Buddy was playing a push-pull that he said he had just gotten back from someone because it was a special one, into a Session 500 amp (the others were playing through 500's too). In major contrast to Jernigan's tone (Sho-Bud Super Pro) and Herby's (don't recall what guitar he was playing), Buddy's tone was fat, round and warm, no highs at all and no nasal upper mids, totally not the bright, cutting tone we generally associate with the push-pull.

I recorded the whole show with a Shure SM-58 in the center aisle into a cassette deck, and I'm still knocked out by Buddy's tone, and amazed at how much darker it is than the others'.

I accept that, Brint, and have to assume that recording engineers and producers play a big part in the choices made. As I said, perhaps that more shrill tone that I hear on '60s records was fashionable in those days.