The Steel Guitar Forum

Lane - When you are counting, it is more incisive to just use numbers for the beats. There are standard syllables for the sub-beats (see below.) You would count 6/8 like this: "One and uh Two and uh," and 3/4 would be: "One Two Three."
Also, the song you mentioned that was turned into a waltz would be in 3/4 time. 12/8 time would still feel like it has four beats.

If a song has a two sub-beat feel (think eighth notes), count "One and Two and...."
If a song has a three sub-beat feel (think triplets), count "One and uh Two and uh..."
If a song has a four sub-beat feel (think sixteenth notes), count "One ee and uh Two ee and uh..."

What Jonathan wrote is right on. But there can be more than one way to notate the same sound. For instance, both of the measures below would sound the same. If the whole song had a triplet feel, the composer would probably use 6/8 time. If just a measure or two in the song had a triplet feel, those measures would be notated like the second measure.

b0b has it spot on. Run those 2 tunes through in your head - 6/8 to me is always a little more 'lyrical'. 3/4 is Strict Tempo!

Rich Sullivan wrote:...there can be more than one way to notate the same sound. For instance, both of the measures below would sound the same. If the whole song had a triplet feel, the composer would probably use 6/8 time. If just a measure or two in the song had a triplet feel, those measures would be notated like the second measure.

That is my assumption as well. But in a thread about the time signature of the song "Statue Of a Fool" Paul Franklin flatly stated that it's in 4/4 time. I respectfully disagree, but when I expected corroboration by finding "O Holy Night" in a book of Christmas songs--which has the same triplet flow, in my opinion a clear-cut case of 6/8--I was surprised to find it written with 4/4 as the time signature!

Think of the songs "Digging' Up Bones" ( 6/8 ) and "Kentucky Waltz" (3/4)...and ya have two of the most used feels....

A lot of good info in this thread!

Brint - I agree with you. But ultimately, the composer can notate it any way he wants (if it works.)

One of our band gigs is a seniors dance once a month. If we are requested a waltz number, my younger guys don't understand why we don't get as much response to a 6/8 tune as a regular old 3/4. Even dancers, non musicians, can tell the difference. Most younger drummers are hesitant to play the oom, pah, pah feel, preferring to accent the 1 and the 3.

I'm terrible at theory and music, but as I understand it, it's simply 1,2,3...vs. 1and2and3...

"Rock a bye baby on the treetop..." = 3/4 time

"The farmer in the dell, the farmer in the dell..." = 6/8 time

(Aren't most polkas in 6/8 time?)

The Farmer In The Dell and most polkas are in 4/4 time, Donny..

Jim Smerk wrote:Think of the songs "Digging' Up Bones" ( 6/8 ) and "Kentucky Waltz" (3/4)...and ya have two of the most used feels....

A lot of good info in this thread!

Are you guys pullin' my leg?

Diggin Up Bones is in 4/4. I can't even count to 6 while that song is playing. I get to 4 and gotta start over.

Thanks so much for all your replays , I think I have it right .

b0b
The Farmer In The Dell and most polkas are in 4/4 time,

Actually, The Farmer in The Dell is written in 6/8 meter. And polkas are usually written in cut time or 2/2, although occasionally they are shown in 2/4. Either way, it is a duple meter, not quadruple meter. (Think Oom-pah.)

Diggin Up Bones is in 4/4. I can't even count to 6 while that song is playing. I get to 4 and gotta start over.

Yes, Diggin Up Bones is in 4/4. But to suggest not being able to count to six to refute the 6/8 argument is misleading. Everyone keeps missing the point that 6/8 is a compound duple meter. And although compound, by definition, means the subdivisions of the beat are always in threes (triple), there are only two beats per measure, so you can only count to two, even though those beats are divided into triplets. To repeat - One and uh Two and uh.

I see.

I usually write chord charts in whatever time would take up the least space. If the chords always stay for 4 beats, I would write 4/4 instead of 2/4 (or 2/2) for polkas.

I suppose I hear "Farmer In The Dell" as 12/8 (4 groups of 3), which is why I count to 4 in it. I think "Sleepwalk" is the best example of 6/8 for this audience.

What time signature is "Steel Guitar Rag"? 2/2, 2/4, or 4/4?

Lastly, can any of you rhythm geniuses answer my question about "So Into You"? http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=311319

In reverse order.

"So Into You" drops two beats during the phrase in question. So the question becomes - where exactly are they dropped? And this is subjective. The top line was my first thought, which is to stay in 4/4 until the last measure of the phrase which would then be 2/4. But I think it makes as much sense to have each measure reflect the lyrics, which would then be notated as two measures of 3/4, and one of 4/4. I could live with either.



Before I finished entering this, I see that your other post has already been answered. Mike's notation is equivalent to mine, just feeling the pulse differently. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

"Steel Guitar Rag" is usually notated in cut time (2/2).

"Sleepwalk" has been published most often in 4/4, but I have seen it notated in 6/8 and 12/8. I have a copy of the sheet music from the early '60's which I think may have been the original version as published and it is in 4/4. I would bet Santo or Johnny did not write the music out for the publisher. Some scribe listened to the recording and transcribed it as he heard it. Anyway, any of these times will work, but my preference would be 12/8 over 6/8 - I feel it in four beat measures, not two, and it definitely has the triplet feel of 12/8, but writing it in 4/4 with triplets notated is equally valid.

Polkas are in 2/4. So are marches (unless they're in 6/8).

b0b's principle of saving space is good, but if you need help deciding between, say 2/4 and 4/4, consider the origin of barlines.

Musical notation was first developed for writing down religious chants which had previously been disseminated orally with the inevitable degradation in accuracy. There was rhythmic notation for ornaments within a syllable, but the metric structure followed the words and did not need to be notated separately.

When the time came to write down instrumental music for dancing, the bar lines represented the strong beats in whatever dance it might be. In music which is not in an obvious dance tempo, chord progressions can offer a clue as to how often the cycle of beats repeats.

Rich is right about Steel Guitar Rag (and similar music) in which the smallest note value is an 8th when it's done in 2/2. 16ths are more trouble to write and read. (Stravinsky once wrote a piece for jazz band using 16ths and had to rescore it entirely before they could make sense of it.)

I'm not sure why 6/8 is the favourite triple rhythm for very fast music, while 3/8, and 12/8 are used mostly in gentler tempi. I suspect readability may be the answer.

This might be of help to a beginner struggling with this subject. One essential piece of basic information has not been stated explicitly in this thread, although it is assumed by most of the posts.

It is that the first beat of the bar gets the heaviest accent (metric accent). So, the second beat of 6/8 (the 4th eighth note) gets slightly less accent than the first eighth note.

A piece in 3/4 at 240 bpm can sound a lot like a piece in 6/8 at 80 bpm. The difference is that in 6/8, every second beat is accented less.

b0b wrote: Are you guys pullin' my leg?

Diggin Up Bones is in 4/4. I can't even count to 6 while that song is playing. I get to 4 and gotta start over.

b0b wrote:I think "Sleepwalk" is the best example of 6/8 for this audience.[/url]

Ignoring the triplets played by rhythm instruments throughout, the song conforms to the usual 32 bar AABA form in 4/4, with two chord changes per bar in the A sections. That would dictate using 12/8 if one has reason to write it in compound meter to reflect the rhythm parts. The melody doesn't seem to require it. In 6/8 the song would go for 64 bars - would sound the same, but obscures that the song follows a most conventional Tin Pan Alley formula.

Guy, I did make your point when I talked about the origin of barlines, but maybe you've done it better.

How did you put brackets round the second accent in the third measure? Manually? I'm assuming Sibelius because of the green playback line.

Ian, yes, I use Sibelius. You will find the brackets in the assorted signs menu item (shortcut: z).

Folks - Sorry about my earlier rant. Guess I'm watching too much C-span lately.

It is my understanding that the secret is in the phrasing of the song. For example, Girl Crush was recorded in 6/8 time and the lyrics have a natural break or resolve at the end of a 6/8 measure. Tennessee waltz was recorded in 3/4 time and the lyrics have natural phrase ends that match the 3 beat measures. I studied classical violin for a time and that's the explanation that came with some of the lessons.