The Steel Guitar Forum

I've very happy with my extra arm rest.

The unique sound characteristics and the ability to personalize one's own guitar relative to setup, number of necks, strings, and etc. are things which insure the future of steel guitar. What other instrument offers the possibility of such variations which provide the opportunity of individual creativity..............

I believe the future of steel guitar has never been brighter.

Pete's right. I made the switch after playing D-10 for four years, I was playing five nights a week and when my S-12 came in I noodled with it for a few days and then just started playing the S-12 on gigs, quite a few rough spots the first couple of nights but it didn't take long to get back to normal. Even playing the 12 full time however I found that whenever I sat down on a D-10 I had come home, the 10 strings just fit my hands better. My main reason for switching was that I thought it would help me create my own style, yet I found I still thought in terms of E9 or C6 so it didn't really do that for me. Twenty years of hindsight now tells me that style needed to come from within me not my guitar. Looking back on those years I see the biggest advantage the S-12 gave me (I used a single frame) was the space to have a guitar or banjo in my lap (I doubled on 40-60% of our material back then) without having to reach too far to play the front neck.
I agree with Bob's comment on intonation as the compromises I made to get the guitar to sound good with itself meant that in the B6'th mode I couldn't use many open strings cause they were too flat to sound in tune with the rest of the band. These days I tune a little closer to straight up so maybe that would be less of a problem if I adapted that approach to a twelve string tuning.
I still have my 82 Zum 12 and use it to experiment on but D-10 is what I play these days, I've been both places and it just feels right for me. There's no right or wrong here, nor is there some conspiracy foisted on the steel community by 'the establishment' or the builders and I commend all of you thread particpants so far in keeping this a civil discussion.

D-uh... I don't know. Good question. A 'U' would be a lot easier to haul around.

I like the 9th string D on the E9th. As a matter of fact, I like it so much that I also have it on my C6th!

I rarely see the need to drop below low E in any of the music I play. A 12 string E9th suits my needs much better than a Universal.

I currently play a D-12, but I don't play the C6th very much.

------------------
<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)</font>

Well I'm glad to hear that converting to U12 is easier than I feared. Maybe I should try it someday. Anybody got a spare one they want to lend me for a few months?

<SMALL>I rarely see the need to drop below low E in any of the music I play. A 12 string E9th suits my needs much better than a Universal</SMALL>

Same here, and when I need to go lower than E, I use this newfangled contraption called a "pedal" that lowers the pitch of my low string.

<SMALL>Why aren't you playing a Universal guitar?</SMALL>

'cause I am at work? 'cause I'm Christmas shopping? 'cause I'm building Legos with my boy? 'cause I'm on the Internet? 'cause I'm watchin' TV? 'cause I'm doin' honeydews? 'cause I'm playin' the ZB tonight?

<SMALL>Anybody got a spare one they want to lend me for a few months?</SMALL>

No. I ain't that busy....

<SMALL>and when I need to go lower than E, I use this newfangled contraption called a "pedal" that lowers the pitch of my low string</SMALL>

pe.....dal....? Fascinating. Please explain.

The main reason I thought I might like a D10 instead of my U12, I keep getting tabs that are written for E9. I should be able to figure it out for the U12, but I'm not the smartest guy in town. I pretty much learned on the bandstand, and while I played a lot of gigs, I always had to switch to six string, so anything that was hard for me on steel, I just switched to guitar. As an aside, I sat in front Of Bill Stafford and it looked like he had 30 or 40 strings to me. He will make you want a 14.

------------------
Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum S12U, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3
http://www.Charmedmusic.com

<SMALL>and if you're lucky enough to live close enough to a steel teacher, chances are over 95% that they play S10 or D10, so you won't find much help.</SMALL>

To the contrary...The E9/B6 Universal and I have had many excellent and HELPFUL lessons with Burke Carroll, Bob Taillefer and Al Brisco who all play D10. Teachers have not been a problem as far as I'm concerned, I'd be suspect of a teacher who couldn't readily translate a lesson to the B6. Lessons at a level much more advanced than my capabilities I can't comment !?!?
I love the hours I spend on my Universal!
Cheers
--Gord

.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Garth Highsmith on 09 January 2006 at 08:41 PM.]</p></FONT>

Most of what I do on steel is E9 stuff. But, I will occasionally need that other tuning......key word...occasionally. For my needs, NOT having the bulk of the extra neck is great. If however I played in a jazz band, I might feel differently about the S12U. But I don't think so. Heck, I got by with the little BMI S-10 for quite a while.

Seems to me everything you need in a steel is there, in a much more compact version.

A D-10 looks much more impressive on stage though!

I started on an Extended E9, which I then had converted to a stripped down Universal. I miss the D string.

I do use the low notes, so for me, a thirteen string or fourteen string guitar (and extra LOW E would be nice) would be the way to go if I wanted a single neck tuning. With a fourteen string universal that included the D string, I could probably be happy (I'd probably have the D string go to C# with the E>D# lever).

I don't really know about tone and weight issues, and I can't see how the intonation thing would be any more of an issue than it already is (A+F position, anyone?), but I do think that flexibility is a key argument in favor of the double-neck. Being able to change stuff around without screwing up your knee lever configuration sounds pretty good to me. And if you have lots of pedals and knee levers, that could get impractical on a U12--if you have so many that you need to switch to a center cluster for the "6th tuning" changes, then why not just play a double neck?

At any rate, my current take is that I think anybody getting a Universal should strongly consider a thirteen or fourteen string guitar, so as to get the D string back. If you did that, the issues about pedal setup flexibility would still matter, but might not tip the scales towards getting a double-neck, which I presently believe they do.

-Travis

U-12s are a much more complete tuning - it's just that simple.It ties up all the loose ends and shortcomings of both necks. All that crap about the missing D string(just a pedal stroke away),tuning compromises etc,etc are just excuses for all you D-10 guys not jumping off the cliff. I deferred making the switch for many years and all I got now are regrets for waiting all those years to make that move.Now that I've done it and it's been 10 years now - I'm playing more music,playing deeper in the changes,traveling lighter and thinking more coherently within my tuning as I play.I'm less of a "steel player" and more of a MUSICIAN. What's amazing to me is that these things are still being debated by people who are smart enough to play steel and analize copedants in the first place.
-MJ-

Michael, the missing D string thing is not "crap." There are times when even having both the E>D lower and the B>D raise aren't enough. It's there for a legitimate reason, and I doubt you'd convince many E9 players to remove it and replace it with those two changes.

Maybe, though, if Paul Franklin decided to switch to the Universal tuning he'd start playing "deeper in the changes" and become more of a "MUSICIAN." (And maybe Maurice Anderson would finally be able to overcome the "limitations" of his instrument if he did the sensible thing and switched to a D10...)

I don't doubt that it works for you, because it works for me and many other people. And the U12 tuning has some real and concrete advantages over the standard double-neck tunings. But I don't think you can just dismiss the pro-D10 arguments with a wave of your hands.

-Travis<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 23 December 2004 at 03:00 AM.]</p></FONT>

Travis. I somehow suspect you never tried one of Reece's Bb6 tuned steels.

I have tried a few normal Uni's and S-10 E9s and D-10s a lot more.

But I sat w down at David Wright's Bb6 and wasjust flabergasted at the power I found in 20 minutes.

I heard him and Joe Wright jamming on their different tunes S-12s and many other players on D-10s at the last two ISGC.
I heard nothing musically "MISSING" from anything D.W. played.
And I didn't see Joe Wright struggling for voicings either.

I got the imporesion that Bb6 was a C6 with E9 licks added, and the Uni is an E9 with C6 licks added.
Basically inverse aplication of the same basic melodology.

So I say it's just different, than a D-10, but in many ways more powerfully.
All your adressed gripes seem to be things that YOU can change on the guitar to suit your self,
unless you are locked into staying Vanilla Newman Uni.

I also don't see whay you can't have that low D below too in a regular Uni if you want it..
It may not be there on the classic Newman Uni,
but that doesn't mean you can't have it too.

In addition Mike Perlowin has soime interesting comments on Unis here http://b0b.com/tunings/mperlowin.html <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 23 December 2004 at 03:22 AM.]</p></FONT>

"....c*** about the missing D.."

That 'D' string is fundamental to my playing on the top neck - I'd hate to have to engage a lever or pedal just to get it in the first place!!!

It seems like the Holiday spirit went AWOL in that particular response....

I'll put it back - - there!

RR

I guess I must play a D10 because:

-I'm a luddite
-Monkey see monkey do
-It looks really boss to have two necks instead of one
-I dig hauling around more weight

Truth be told, while I have no claim to "knowing better", I do know that starting out with D10 made me feel reasonably comfortable that folks who had decades of experience had figured out what was a hell of a good place to start, in a relatively standard setup.

While I've tinkered a little bit, it is good to know that as I go along the reasons why things were adapted as they were will become scintillatingly clear from time to time.

Universal tunings just make my mind kind of swim, even now with the instrument making some kind of sense to me... I look at it, and I just can't really figure out why certain things are set up the way they are... By now, I just don't want to have to unlearn all the semi "instinctive" picking and gripping that I'm used to, with the moves involved.

Plus, there really is (as Bob H. said above) only a pretty small difference in weight. I think on the Williams website they list a U12 as being about 4 or 5 pounds lighter than a D10???

It's great that there is more than just one way to go! After playing for 30 years myself, I still get excited when I hear about other steeler/musicians coming up with new ideas for their tuning setups....but I do think that none of the tunings we've come up with so far has given us the same kind of freedom to visualize music in the way a pianist does.
I've always felt that the way we use the word "universal" is a bit of a misnomer. It might be an attempt at bridging the gap between 2 popular tunings that have evolved over the last 60 years or so, but IMHO it's not exactly "universal" from the larger musical standpoint. Nothing is. The steel player/mad scientist/alchemist/nerd aspect of our little community has appealed to my imagination since the first time I saw a pedal steel. I think it's great that we're still a work in progress.

I thought the answer to question is: "because it's not universally accepted!"

------------------
<A HREF="http://frankestesmba.com/" TARGET=_blank>Frank Estes
1978 Emmons D-10 8+7 #2441D
1968 Emmons D-10 8+4 #1234D</A>

"Why am I not playing a "universal?", ..I might be if I knew what universal meant. I don't think that it is a very appropriate term to describe the merging of a 6th and a 7th based tuning structure. COMBO tuning might be better, ..E9/B6 type labels are quite definitive in themselves.

Why haven't I adopted a "Universal" tuning:

First, I suppose that a lot of it has to do with what my "heroes" play - D-10.

I approach my two tunings differently (and I like that):

- Using different pickups on each tuning
- Using different tuning temperments
- Using different string gauges
- Having pedals and levers that allow me to make the E9th more "E9th", and the C6th more "C6th"

I guess I see it all as one instrument, but by having both tunings, it gives me even more options: like a guitar player would using a Tele and an Arch-top with different tunings on the same gig.

Playing some slide guitar and dobro parts on Jo Dee's stuff this year, I found some things just layed better on C6th (not B6th) than I could have ever gotten from my E9th.

I think the flexibility of our instrument does give us advantages, in terms of taking it in the direction we personally want to, but it also holds it back... I mean, can you imagine if every 6-string guitar you picked up was tuned differently?

I have heard monster players on universal tunings, and on multiple tunings. I don't think that anyone can say one option is more "complete", or makes them more of a "musician". The most important thing is to pursue what interests you as a player. I just tried to share my reasons for doing what I do, and I am happy to be a steel player & a musician.

More than my $0.02,

David Spires

------------------
Steel Guitarist for Jo Dee Messina: Carter D-10 8&7 / MSA Classic D-10 8&5; Line 6 Pod XT; Jagwire Artist Series Strings; Walker Professional Players' Chair; Peterson VS-II Tuner; Goodrich Matchbro & LDR Pedal; and BJS Bars<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David Spires on 23 December 2004 at 09:21 AM.]</p></FONT>

Rick is exactly right. The "universal" tunings are hybrid tunings based on the two most popular pedal steel tunings. Both of the common Universal tunings do a good job at providing the common changes. Although I haven't spent a whole lot of time with unis, I have played them enough to know that there are definitely some types of playing that would be easier on a uni than on a standard E9th or C6th.

For me the reasons I play a D10 are:

1. I don't play standard E9th or C6th. I play a modified Sacred Steel tuning on the E neck, and a modified C6th tuning (I have two D strings and no low C). There are a ton of things I use all the time that you simply can't get on a uni (especially on the E neck). Which goes to show that the unis aren't truly 'universal.

2. Reducing the number and complexity of changes on each neck makes a more stable and in-tune instrument (IMHO). I play a Franklin, so there's no problem in putting as many changes as you want, but I prefer to keep the copedent down to 4-5 pedals and 5 knees per neck.

3. I have two very different types of tunings on the front and back necks. The E neck is very open and 'vanilla chord friendly'. I can do a lot of rhythm figures on it ('framming' in Sacred Steel lingo) that you just can't do on a standard pedal steel tuning. On the other hand, my C neck is very dense, very well set up for scalar playing and for making complex chord voicings. I like having the two very different tunings, and I approach each in a different way.

4, This isn't an issue now, but the reason I started on a D10 is that I learned to play from my trusty Marantz cassette player (with the 1/2 speed feature). It was useful to me to know that when I learned solos from my favorite players, I had a really good likelyhood of being able to play it in the same way as my heros (who all played D10s).

------------------
www.tyack.com

Didn't mean to harsh anyone's mellow. I do know that some players are so used to having that D in there that they can't fathom spending the time to develop the muscle instincts to get that note in other ways. I like having to get it with a pedal cause it makes lower voicings more fluid,resolvable and "pedal steely".And it can be set up to be extremely quick and handy to get to. You know I never hear of anyone lamenting the "missing C# string" which is the note we get by raising the 5th string or lowering the 2nd string - even though having that as an open string is an integral part of the much overlooked Zane Beck E6/9 tuning.It's just that that tuning never caught on. Now Paul Franklin gets more out of a D-10 than anyone probably ever will and he deals with the shortcomings of both necks by adding a few trick pedals,centering his playing around what the tunings will do - not what what they won't do - but mainly out of sheer musicianship. And everyone should try for that. Even though I'm lucky if I play one tenth as well as Paul,logic tells me that a loaded U-12 covers more musical range than either D-10 tuning by itself in any way you want to measure it. And I daresay if Paul started playing one in earnest,we'd be hearing some very interesting things from him we hadn't heard before.Anyhow after getting up on my hind legs and crowing about my U-12 tuning,I should say that about half the time these days,I'm playing an 8-string C6/A9 non-pedal tuning with a LOT of "missing" strings and getting around OK. So what do I know.....it's all fun. -MJ-