The Steel Guitar Forum

Yup.Can't mask the vocal,but you can compliment it if you do it tasty and in the background,and take almost the opposite approach that you would to soloing.

It requires judgment, dynamics and listening.
It can be done without stepping on the vox, but not easily.

Lane Gray wrote:It requires judgment, dynamics and listening.

It is a style of playing that John Hughey mastered.

Mitch

A good singer who interprets a song and its lyrics is a pure pleasure to play behind. We are there to serve the song in the most expressive way we can. How can you do that if you're unaware of the song's meaning?

Having said that, I've been stuck behind vocalists who have little or no notion of what they're singing about! They've learned the words by rote and it sounds like it.

Roger Rettig wrote:A good singer who interprets a song and its lyrics is a pure pleasure to play behind. We are there to serve the song in the most expressive way we can. How can you do that if you're unaware of the song's meaning?

Having said that, I've been stuck behind vocalists who have little or no notion of what they're singing about! They've learned the words by rote and it sounds like it.

Exactly. Been there. I have the T-shirt and the cap.

An example of not serving the song is the way most bar bands approach Ray Price's "The Other Woman."

In the song, the man has just been accused of adultery by his wife. This is the most serious conversation a couple can have. He is in effect saying "listen, don't YOU accuse me. You know you had your hand in it. If you had paid attention to our marriage..." These are words he wants his wife to hear, every word. They should be said with determination and with conviction. The words he is saying have deep meaning, affecting the rest of their lives. He's made a serious, life-changing decision. That's the story. It's not a song of celebration.

So why do so many bands play the song as a too-fast uptempo shuffle, with a syncopated drum fill in the middle of the bridge? I don't know, but IMHO it totally obscures the meaning of the song. Probably because many bar band singers aren't skilled enough with vocal technique to handle a slow ballad, so they want to get through it as quickly as possible. Also, a 4/4 shuffle can speed up drastically in the hands of a less-than-metronomic rhythm section. Or maybe the band just wants the dancers to dance and not think about anything.

It's hard to play slow and keep it in tempo, but choice of tempo is an important part of stagecraft, IMHO.

Hey, there's no telling. I was requested to play "Long Black Limousine" at a wedding. No kidding.

I am more interested in music than in songs or singing, and I feel I'm not alone...

Yes, but we're still ensemble players, as I'm pretty sure you were as a trombonist. If you're not supporting a singer, you're still supporting the rest of the cats around you when you're not soloing. Right?
You can put tasty lines behind the solo, or you can step all over the solo.

Sadly, Ian, you're not.

Herb Steiner wrote:

Roger Rettig wrote:A good singer who interprets a song and its lyrics is a pure pleasure to play behind. We are there to serve the song in the most expressive way we can. How can you do that if you're unaware of the song's meaning?

Having said that, I've been stuck behind vocalists who have little or no notion of what they're singing about! They've learned the words by rote and it sounds like it.

Exactly. Been there. I have the T-shirt and the cap.

An example of not serving the song is the way most bar bands approach Ray Price's "The Other Woman."

In the song, the man has just been accused of adultery by his wife. This is the most serious conversation a couple can have. He is in effect saying "listen, don't YOU accuse me. You know you had your hand in it. If you had paid attention to our marriage..." These are words he wants his wife to hear, every word. They should be said with determination and with conviction. The words he is saying have deep meaning, affecting the rest of their lives. He's made a serious, life-changing decision. That's the story. It's not a song of celebration.

So why do so many bands play the song as a too-fast uptempo shuffle, with a syncopated drum fill in the middle of the bridge? I don't know, but IMHO it totally obscures the meaning of the song. Probably because many bar band singers aren't skilled enough with vocal technique to handle a slow ballad, so they want to get through it as quickly as possible. Also, a 4/4 shuffle can speed up drastically in the hands of a less-than-metronomic rhythm section. Or maybe the band just wants the dancers to dance and not think about anything.

It's hard to play slow and keep it in tempo, but choice of tempo is an important part of stagecraft, IMHO.

Hey, there's no telling. I was requested to play "Long Black Limousine" at a wedding. No kidding.

Herb, I know where you're coming from. The sad thing is, there is an ART TO BEING A GOOD SIDEMAN!!! Look, let's be honest, who REALLY comes out to see the guitarist, the steel player, etc other that other musicians? The average person who comes to see a band comes to see the SINGER. The average person relates more to the singer than the rest of the band. Our job as sidemen is to make the singer sound as GOOD as we can. A good band makes or breaks a singer. I know as a guitarist I would get jobs away from a nationally recognized guitarist, not because I was a better player, Heck, I'm not worthy to carry his guitar case, but I would not play over or upstage the singer. I would try to accentuate the singer. Listen to the classic Ernest Tubb records. Leon and Buddy (either Buddy) could play fantastically intricate solos, but when they were playing behind ET, listen to how SIMPLE their fills were. They ACCENTED THE SINGER!!! It's like cooking, a little bit of wine in the stew accents the flavor, too much, the stew tastes like WINE!!!

Great comment, b0b! ("I was playing country music for 5 years before I noticed any of the lyrics. To me, the singer was just another noise to ignore, like bottles breaking and the barmaid yelling at customers.")

I've been a huge Buddy Cage fan, since....forever. He's pretty much the guy that got me hooked on Pedal Steel Guitar. I loved the NRPS alblums I was buying, but when I finally went to my 1st New Riders concert, in 1975.....I was so blown away, I couldn't believe what I was hearing from Cage! That night I decided to buy a steel...& learn how to play Pedal Steel Guitar. Been playing ever since!

He can also play straight ahead, hardcore country...& GREAT...& he fits like a glove. A great example, are the 2 albums he played on, by The Brooklyn Cowboys. This is Walter Egans band...& they are Excellent!! Seriously, Buddy sounds like he's a Nashville player with this band. He doesn't over play with this band. I agree, his "over playing" or Staccato, fits the New Riders of the Purple Sage, perfectly. If you like Buddy Cage, & would like to hear him with this band....get "Dodging Bullets." Excellent CD!!

From what I think I know, Buddy Emmons...& Buddy Charelton, are his favorite players.

I've often talked about not stepping on the vocals, but over the last week or so of no mobile data, I've been listening to my MP3 collection.
If you go to the bandleader's Dropbox, there's a CD I cut a couple years ago. On at least two songs, "My Woman, My Dog and My 4 by 4" and either "Baby, You've Changed" or "Ring On Your Finger", I'm not only playing as Marc sings, but I really think it belongs there.
I'm on 11 of the 12 songs on his CD, and it's here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yf1ovkjiolqud ... 0Album.zip

(i just manually edited it because my browser kept the spaces, and those aren't normally clickable, I HOPE %20 is a space)

Pete Burak wrote:I have no problem with Buddy's playing along with the vocals.
'Sounds great, when he does it.
Hello Mary Lou - Live
Listen what he plays starting at 1:19:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgrui9SojOE

Found another version, made for a TV program in Germany, 1972.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFD7Ltn5TF8

Buddy drives that band, everyone plays a little snappier when he takes off!
I remember seeing them around that time and Buddy's solo just grabbed me and sent me to the clouds . . ok, maybe a little buzzed at the time, but . .

Those of us, who, started playing pedal steel in the 70's, were definitely influenced by Buddy Cage, Sneaky Pete, Al Perkins, Rusty Young, et al. The steel was a new sound to me and the genre of the music I enjoyed to play. So, I think we all learned to overplay over the vocals, but, it seemed to fit in. Yes, granted, taste must be a main focal point in doing so though. As I progressed in my steel playing and broadened my musical steel scope. I realized that, in country music it's not a highly up front sound, but, a complimenting sound. But, also a sound that could and can be a significant part of a song. So, I had to relearn my way of playing the steel and my approach to the music. The style that was popular in the late 60's and through the 70's worked perfectly, but, that style did not work that well in pure country music. The singers and their style took paramount over the whole band. I still get a big charge when the singer picks a tune from that "Country Rock" era. It lets me play through the whole song with abandonment, but, with taste.

I think it's kind of the DNA of that band. There's an abundant supply of live concerts from the FIRST incarnation, on sugarmegs.org. That guy they had on steel? Jerry Something or another? It actually sounds a LOT like he's leading the band from the steel seat, and the rest of the band sort of following... it really started off as a lark because Jerry Garcia loved to play steel guitar, and, so he did. Without trying to be mean, I think maybe he hadn't yet got around to studying fills and pads and volume pedals and stuff, he was just playing steel and kinda surprised that, like, these people showed up and played along, and some other people actually wanted to listen to them.

He didn't ever get fired because they needed a better steel guitarist, he quit because he felt he couldn't give steel guitar the attention it needed AND be Jerry Garcia the Dead singer/guitarist/songwriter/chemistry researcher etc. They were kind of slowly sneaking up sideways on being a professional country band. So when Buddy Cage came in, he would've been the most skilled musician (by a long shot) in the band, and it wasn't like there was some fascist pig bandleader to order him around and tell him what to do. Like, when some guy's singing you're supposed to not be soloing, and other bourgeois, archaic hang-ups.

The last 30 seconds of that "you could've seen me coming" song on the Panama Red album is just brilliant

This reminds me of when Lloyd Green met with the Byrds before the Sweetheart album was recorded and asked: "Where do you want me to play?" They replied: "All over!!" Although he wasn't used to it as a Nashville session player, he produced a tutorial on how to do it.

My Posts from the Extended Family thread on Buddy:

Scott Baker wrote: First saw Buddy with NRPS at UC Riverside in early 70's. Probably the first time i ever saw a Pedal Steel live. Major influence on me picking up the instrument.

Scott Baker wrote:Buddy's solo in the middle of L.A. Lady still sends me into orbit every time I hear it. Amazing.
Go Buddy!.

A crucial additive clue here is, that for a band to be even somewhat successful, they do need to actually provide something-or-other interesting enough to listen to. And there's an awful lot of music, and songs, where really listening to the lyrics and pondering upon their deeper meaning is about as much fun as feeding beans to your dog so you can listen to him fart. I mean, about the best piece of advice I ever got regarding working up tone on slide guitar was to listen to, really listen to great <strike>chick</strike> female singers, and in a lot of ways I still think of me as playing a big, really wierd slide guitar. And I can listen to Whitney Houston for hours, but it's not because she will always love meee-eee-eee-ee. Just think, if Buddy Cage wasn't playing over and through all the lyrics on NRPS songs -

- you'd have to listen to THEM.

fwiw, I find no conflict between the Lyrics and Steel playing on any NRPS song(s).

I fell in love with country music, not steel guitar, I didn't even know what steel guitar was...I was invited to a rehearsal of a local country band, and hear them talking about "pedal steel guitar" and how nice would it be to have it in the band, I realized that this "steel guitar" would be my way into the band, so I stood up and said "I'll buy a pedal steel guitar" as soon as I said that there was a silence at the table, and everyone was stearing at me for a few moments...then they all started cheering, and talking to me...at that moment I knew pedal steel guitar was my future lol...that's how I started playing pedal steel, but my attitude didn't change, I still love the music, and I enjoy listening the whole picture, and when I play I pay attention to the whole band, and try to play something that fits in the whole picture...I enjoy the most if the band and singer are good, and I never play over anybody, I will play fills, and around the singer, but never on top of his singing...its like painting a picture pretty much...

Damir Besic wrote:I fell in love with country music, not steel guitar, I didn't even know what steel guitar was...I was invited to a rehearsal of a local country band, and hear them talking about "pedal steel guitar" and how nice would it be to have it in the band, I realized that this "steel guitar" would be my way into the band, so I stood up and said "I'll buy a pedal steel guitar" as soon as I said that there was a silence at the table, and everyone was stearing at me for a few moments...then they all started cheering, and talking to me...at that moment I knew pedal steel guitar was my future lol...that's how I started playing pedal steel, but my attitude didn't change, I still love the music, and I enjoy listening the whole picture, and when I play I pay attention to the whole band, and try to play something that fits in the whole picture...I enjoy the most if the band and singer are good, and I never play over anybody, I will play fills, and around the singer, but never on top of his singing...its like painting a picture pretty much...

Damir, that is the exact method that describes professionalism as a sideman or instrumentalist. Serve the song - the song is the boss. You "got it" right away. It took me years. Many players never understand that concept.

Herb yes, "serve the song" those are the words I was looking for...help make the song as beautiful or emotional as possible...I know a few, If any, steel guitar instrumentals because I just was never that interested in steel guitar itself, or as a solo instrument, as much as I was interested in music in general...there is just no better feeling or satisfaction for me like when the bend is good, and clicks, and breaths together, and you play something that fits perfectly into the whole picture, and you can see the smiles on all of the other guys faces, and you know at that moment, you are making some good music...that's just me, what I love about music...creating

What NRPS songs do you guys do?
Folks in the Jam Band scene up here want to hear 'em played with rippin Steel, just like Buddy Cage.
That's what I try give 'em.
fwiw, I think I am one of the best in town at "laying out"...
...But not on NRPS song... I mean... C'Mon.

Pete Burak wrote:What NRPS songs do you guys do?
Folks in the Jam Band scene up here want to hear 'em played with rippin Steel, just like Buddy Cage.
That's what I try give 'em.
fwiw, I think I am one of the best in town at "laying out"...
...But not on NRPS song... I mean... C'Mon.

Pete, a New Riders song CALLS for that style of playing. Playing something that would be given the shit-eye and a sidewards glance at a Ray Price-style gig would be appropriate for a NRPS show.