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Topic: Tone is in the hands? |
James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 8:12 am |
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| Yeah Terry, I know how you feel. The only way to overcome it is to do more of it. Immerse yourself in as much exposier as you can. Practise with friends---so you have a live situation. Also, join your steel clubs, and get in on their Jams and live practises. The folks there love to help new players. Play nursing homes, little local opries, ect. These are low profile places a guy can "crash and burn" once in a while. It's not about IF you make a mistake, it's really WHEN you make a mistake. Believe me, you will be the hero on steel playing music with the back porch pickers at the above mentioned low profile gigs. This will give you a chance to work on your tone under a little pressure. It makes a HUGE difference in your confidence, thus your tone. When you have played under the little guns for a while, you will notice the things you have been learning will manefest them selves in your playing. You will be the last to see it, too. But the crowd and fellow musicians will tell you. IMO |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 8:40 am
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When you can play deliberately lousy, on purpose, like my piano hero Victor Borge, then ya might be gettin' it.  |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 10:15 am
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Look out, here's my take, I can get great tone with a great sounding guitar and amp, not so great with poor equipment. Good equipment makes the "Tone Job" a lot easier.
Now, what say you?
bobbe |
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Brandin
From:
Newport Beach CA. USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 11:08 am
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Bobbe, are you sayin' tone comes out of the
wallet?
GB |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 2:06 pm
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| Probably depends on where you shop, eh? |
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 2:35 pm
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quote:
Look out, here's my take, I can get great tone with a great sounding guitar and amp, not so great with poor equipment. Good equipment makes the "Tone Job" a lot easier.
Now, what say you?
now that's what I've always beleived. that your instrument, amp, strings, etc,has more to do with your tone than your hands and fingers. is that not right? I understand what you guys mean by right hand placement, pickin the strings, left hand control etc.
but I still think your equipment has more to do with good tone than your hands. the way I've heard players talk about how much tone comes from your hands, makes me think they are sayin your hands are the most important aspect of good tone. I just can't agree with that.
Terry
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84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.
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Franklin
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 3:54 pm
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Terry,
Maybe this true story will help. After an interviewer commented "What a great sounding guitar" to Chet Atkins, he handed him the guitar and asked him "how does it sound now?" Chet summed this tone subject up in five words.
Emmons could play through the same bad amp with any guitar and make it sound like a million dollars. Don't get me wrong guitars and amps are definately part of the equation. But they don't provide the biggest part of any individuals tone.
Guitars and amps are like a professional painters brush. He can do a great job with any brush. The brush of his preference most likely responds to his touch a little easier, but it is still his technical skills that get the job done.
Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 03 October 2004 at 04:59 PM.] |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 4:01 pm
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| I beleive good equipment is important, BUT, a fantastic guitar in incapable hands might as well be just a cheapo guitar. You still have to do the work to get the great tone out of it. Great tone is still in the hands, to me anyways. But I still wouldn't want to start out with poor equipment. |
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 5:06 pm
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well, since I know for a fact that Paul Franklin knows a heck of a lot more about the tone issue than I'll ever know, I have to admit that I'm wrong. I'd never argue with one of the greatest steel players in the business. Thanks for settin me straight Paul. I hope to one day be able to get the tone I'm lookin for with my hands. till then, I'll just keep on twangin. 
Terry
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84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 4 Oct 2004 6:19 am
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This is an amazing thread, one of the best I've ever read here in Forumland. Especially the wonderful insights of Larry Bell, Jeff Lampert, and Paul Franklin. Thanks, guys.
The subject matter might be too deep for some beginners to comprehend, in fact. But every teacher of steel guitar should internalize the messages contained herein.
Just as a sidebar, totally parenthetical, Larry's first comment about being able to hit the note you want to hit brought to mind a pet peeve; namely, tuning the 2nd string to C# instead of D#. I can most certainly understand tuning that way for stylistic or mechanical (like on a PP) reasons. But when a player tells me "I tune to C# so when I accidentally hit that string, it doesn't sound so much like a clam," he's also telling me "I'm too lazy to really learn to control the instrument, and I'm really more concerned about appearing to be a steel player." That kind of gets to me, I guess. 
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 04 October 2004 at 07:37 AM.] |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 4 Oct 2004 6:58 am
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Paul's story about Chet Atkins really rang true with me. I'm sure I'm not the only guy that has ever had someone come out and set in on my stuff, not touch a knob, and sound WAY better than I did on the same rig, just one song previously.
I took some lessons with Ricky Davis a couple of years ago, and before we ever hit a note, he had me put my hands on the guitar and immediately 'rearranged' my right hand. I had a very flat hand and Ricky felt that I would get better results if I got a bit more of the curve that you see that so many players have. I also set my stuff up at Tommy Detamore's place not long after, and he immediately saw the same thing and tried to help me get in a better position.
So I figured that's a couple of guys I could learn from and I've since started working very hard to break the flat hand habit. I realize that there are a lot of players with flat right hands that sound great, but for me 'tone is in the hands' started making a lot more sense when I got my right hand in a 'better' (for me) position and could hear the difference. I still fight a flat hand, old habits etc., but it's becoming more and more automatic.
It's a very hard thing to explain, but somehow, at some point, you get a big "Aha!! there's the tone" (at least once in a while) ... and it isn't because I finally turned a knob on the amp just right
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Farris Currie
From:
Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Oct 2004 7:53 am
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| Great Topic!I spent 3times in classes with JEFF NEWMAN,man he preached that to us over and over.He said find the most uncomfortable postion you can find!Hardest thing for me is picking my arm up,i want to lay it on the back neck,and just ruins the strings.I think if i were having one built,i would pull a Curly Chalker and have E9th on back neck.Thats because i play more E9th than C6th. Jeff said a double neck tends to make a person lazy. I agree from my own experience. farris |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 Oct 2004 7:11 pm
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The greatest violin music doesn't come from a Stradivarius or an Amati...it comes from Itzhak Perlman.
Paul, your second post sums up my feelings exactly. If I were a player at your level, or Buddy's, or Lloyd's, I think I would soon grow tired of people asking a question like..."What kind of (guitar, amp) did you use when you played on such and such?" To me, it sort of belittles the player's talent, and it's analogous to someone of the period admiring the work of DaVinci or Michaelangelo, and then that person asking them..."What kind of brush or chisel did you use to create that masterpiece?"
As I've said many times before, the weakest link in the sound chain is between the seat and the steel, and anyone that's ever heard that old song/poem "The Touch Of The Master's Hand" knows exactly of what I speak. Indeed, the most significant part of the sound/tone equation is in the player's hands. That's why he's called an "artist".
Or...(my other favorite saying)
You can't buy "the sound", you have to make it! [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 06 October 2004 at 08:13 PM.] |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 6 Oct 2004 8:39 pm
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This really is a great thread, an excellent question by Terry and many valuable insightful answers. It's the first time I've seen Farris give a serious answer, it's gotta be a great thread! (j/k Farris! )
I would only add, regarding the "from the gear or the hands" question, I've heard so many really lousy tones coming from cream of the crop equipment, it makes me sick. Guys buy a P/P or some other great steel, or a vintage Fender or Gibson axe and a boutique amp and figure now they've got the greatest tone in the world. Wrong! At a jam session once I heard a guy playing a $3500 custom Strat through a Matchless amp, he was a decent player and his tone was thin and awful. Next guy got up with a Japanese Strat copy with a name I've never even heard of and a cheap transister amp. The guys tone was gold. This is where the "tone is in the hands" comes from. It also comes from having a good ear, and your hands working together with a keen ear, that can detect very subtle changes in tone and adjust the hands' touch, placement, all the other factors already mentioned - to get the tone that player desires. It takes time to develop an ear and time to discover and develop the techniques to achieve the tone. When a player has reached that level, then having a great guitar and amp will bring out the best. Until then, it doesn't matter what gear he plays.
[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 06 October 2004 at 10:47 PM.] |
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Ray Uhl
From:
Riverside, Missouri, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2004 9:43 pm
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| Excellent threads...great comments. Just had to add my 2 cents. You MUST know what notes you are going to play. When I'm apprehensive about what to play, it shows in my sound. When I'm confident in my execution, it all comes together. I have heard and played with musicians that borrow equipment, use poor quality instruments and sound great. I can't help but remember one evening I was "cursing" my amp, said this is the last night I'm putting up with this sound, etc. and the well seasoned lead player said to me, "Boy, why do you think they put those knobs on that amp." My sound improved immediately." Many times I think players, me included, use settings the "pros" have given us as a guide. It's a good starting point, but it MUST be tweaked to our touch. |
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billy tam R.I.P.
From:
baton rouge, louisiana
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Posted 7 Oct 2004 4:25 am
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This is really a good thread! Some very good points and mostly all connected. Having played for about 30 years on around 20
or so guitars and more amp combinations I do believe the equipment(as Bobbye says) plays a large part, for this reason. If I am hearing tone-wise close to what I want to hear from my rig it is easier for me to focus on what I am playing and how I approach it, rather than try forcing the tone I want out of it. I think that being confident (knowing the parts) in what you play will make your tone better for the same reason. Just my 2(or maybe 3)cents.
billy tam |
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jim milewski
From:
stowe, vermont
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Posted 7 Oct 2004 9:06 am
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| great equipment might not make you sound better, but it makes sounding bad a whole lot more fun |
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Jim Peters
From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Oct 2004 9:49 am
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| My tone on steel is just OK, I have pretty good stuff, a GFI ultra and a PVNV112., but I'm just a beginner. I can speak with more authority on reg. guitar. I have heard great numbers of players with the best equipment you can buy,play the right notes and have terrible tone! There are SRV clones that i have heard play note for note his songs, with American Strats, Marshall, Boogie or Fender amps, with no tone whatsoever! It's really only when you stop trying to copy someone else, that you start to find your tone. Otherwise you are trying to sound like someone, and you can never get there. I remember trying to sound like Clapton, or Hendrix, or buying a new guitar 'cause I had to play like Van Halen. Changing equipment can push you in the right direction of copying someones tone, but that's all. Most of the really great guitarists in St. Louis, I can recognize in just a few seconds, regardless of what equipment they are using. Equipment chasing is a long and fruitless journey, I know, I been there. If equipment were the cause for real tone, everyone would play the same guitar thru the same amp, and sound exactly the same. JimP [This message was edited by Jim Peters on 07 October 2004 at 10:50 AM.] |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 7 Oct 2004 12:11 pm
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Tone is in the EARS.
Then they tell the hands what the're doing worng |
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Jennings Ward
From:
Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Oct 2004 7:18 pm
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I just could not let this topic go by without asking this question.....If you do not believe that tone is in the hands,LISTEN TO SOMEONE "TRY" TL LEARN TO PLAY THE VIOLIN OR FIDDLE AS I PREFER TO CALL IT. Then listen to a good fiddle player. If you cant tell the difference well??????????
Jennings Play steel for the beautifull angelic sound of if........
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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, + |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 7 Oct 2004 7:19 pm
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| Jennings, good point! |
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Jennings Ward
From:
Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Oct 2004 7:21 pm
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I just could not let this topic go by without asking this question.....If you do not believe that tone is in the hands,LISTEN TO SOMEONE "TRY" TL LEARN TO PLAY THE VIOLIN OR FIDDLE AS I PREFER TO CALL IT. Then listen to a good fiddle player. If you cant tell the difference well??????????
Jennings Play steel for the beautifull angelic sound of if........
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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, + |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 7 Oct 2004 8:22 pm
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| It's deja vu all over again...uh...Jennings, good point! [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 07 October 2004 at 09:23 PM.] |
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Drew Howard
From:
48854
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Posted 8 Oct 2004 4:39 am
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Tone IS in the hands. Put picks and bar in the hands of a five-year-old, or a total newbie, and see what kind of "music" you get.
Drew
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Fessenden D-10 8+8 / Magnatone S-8 (E13)
[This message was edited by Drew Howard on 08 October 2004 at 05:40 AM.] |
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jim milewski
From:
stowe, vermont
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Posted 8 Oct 2004 4:57 am
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| tone is in the hands......this is bad news for pick up winders |
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