The Steel Guitar Forum

There seems to be a very low signal to noise ratio in this topic.

Jim Cohen wrote:

Scott Duckworth wrote:I'm still looking for the "H" chord...

Just be natural and you'll find it in Germany.

http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/g/german-h.aspx

Just wait til you're reading German notated music along with a German band, and the chord symbol says B. What you in the US/UK play is quite different from what they will all play. True story.

Stephen Williams wrote:What i'm trying to understand is what is the relationship between a minor chord and a major chord. I mean absolutely not relationary. Is there a fixed rule?

Yes - in absolutely all instances, a major chord is the root, major third, and fifth. In absolutely all instances, a minor chord is the root, minor third, and fifth. (Though there are different voicing and inversions (where you "invert" the chord), these are always the basic building blocks.) The root and fifth are always the same. What makes a chord minor or major is the third.

A "major third" is an interval two whole-steps above the root. Think C to E, or A to C#.
A "minor third" is an interval a step-and-a-half above the root (or a half step below a "major third"). Think C to Eb, or A to C.

Get Mikes book. Best money I ever spent.

Great replies. Getting my mind bent in all the right places.

this will help me find chords and relationships once i get it i hope. Thank ye all for setting me straight.

An interesting probably never-ending discussion would be..........The theory may be useful off the page as it were. meaning whilst not playing music but does it have any use whilst playing? All music I've made that I like and anybody else i know for that matter does it when the analytical brain is off....when "mistakes" get made. When one is free of thought constraints. Which is prob why music is so satisfying actually.

Thinking of Tom Brumleys solo in Rick Nelson's "the last time around" i believe heavy use of the AB pedals but what a Tour de Force. Sheer genius. Beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0kyXoxT87M

solo at 1:55 and a good outro also

Stephen Williams wrote:The theory may be useful off the page as it were. meaning whilst not playing music but does it have any use whilst playing? All music I've made that I like and anybody else i know for that matter does it when the analytical brain is off....when "mistakes" get made. When one is free of thought constraints. Which is prob why music is so satisfying actually.

I agree - you don't want to be thinking about theory while on the gig. Its value is in the woodshed while you're working out new approaches, learning to incorporate new sounds, developing new physical habits, etc. so all of that will be at your disposal on the gig without having to think about it. That's the goal.

"You've got to learn your instrument. Then, you practice, practice, practice. And then, when you finally get up there on the bandstand, forget all that and just wail."
-Charlie Parker

What Jim Cohen said. YesYes, there's a lot of cool music to be made without thinking about it, but if you apply the theory in the woodshed and build it into your unconscious, unbidden vocabulary, even better things can happen.

Thanks Tom. It's true, I get about a dollar every time somebody buys a copy of my book. So if every person reading this thread gets one, I'll earn enough to buy a new set of strings.

That's not why I mentioned it.

The answer to the original question "why 8 when there are 12 notes in the octave?" required 7 or 8 pages to thoroughly explain. There's a mathematical and scientific formula involved here. It's not overly complicated. If you read my book you will understand it.

Music theory is a science, and like all sciences it has written symbols. And to understand the science, you have to be able to read the symbols. That doesn't mean looking at a piece of sheet music and playing it, but you will need to learn to read music to the extent that you can look at a note and identify it.

b0b wrote:Some songs don't follow music theory logic at all.

I did a session for a guy that wrote on Autoharp once.. he was a lyricist (in HIS mind) and literally just pushed buttons in random order (and time).

I can attest to the quality, accuracy and simplicity of explanation of Mike Perlowin's book and psg addendum - it's as good as it gets. If any of you are finding the short explanations on this thread a little difficult to follow, Mike will put you right.
You don't need to be a theoretician to play music, but some theory helps in all sorts of ways - in finding chords, understanding chord sequences and melody lines, for example.
We can all explain why we don't think theory is helpful to our particular circumstance, but, believe me, you'll be a better player and musician if you adopt a theoretical framework.
Try Mike's book- you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain.

Thanks Alan.

I want to briefly address this issue of reading music.

There's a big difference between looking at sheet music and instantly playing it, and looking at a note like this and saying "That's an F."



Learning how to do that it not going to make you forget what you already know. To be honest, I don't understand why there is so much reluctance on the pat of so many musicians, not just steel players, to learn this simple skill.

The skills of playing by ear and reading music are not only not in conflict with each other, they compliment each other. I feel that knowing how to read helps me play by ear better, and being able to play by ear helps me read better.

Seems like a lot of agreement that theory can only help.

I have a big issue with reading of music not, as Mike says, to identify the note but reading music on the page whilst playing. I have never heard anybody play that way that is inside the music.....meaning there is always a dis-connect to my ears. to me you can read music to learn it and then really play it by doing it from memory. When you are reading whilst playing it seems like the page gets in the way.

No apologies from me for opining that most orchestras sound like dog shhh because everyone is playing from the page, all in their heads.

OK rant over. People must love it that reading and playing and"false" shaking of head top signify passion. Ha Ha. each to his own. Just trying to explain why some musicians li9ke me have a hard time with the written notes

Mike, that's only an F on the treble clef.
On the semiobsolete C clef (probably good for steel: middle C is the center line), that's a G. On the bass clef, it's an A

That's true. It should be noted though that 99% of orchestral musicians only read bass and treble clefs. The others are for specific instruments like the viola, and are only read by people who play those instruments.

My book devotes a couple of pages to a discussion of the bass and treble clefs: how they came about, and the invisible line and note and note (middle C,) that separates them.

This just underscores the fact that if you really want to learn the science of music theory, you need to learn to recognize its symbols, written notes.

Agreed. I do think that the nearly obsolete C clef would be nearly ideal for the E9th neck (although the treble clef would work with the standard guitar convention of writing everything 8vb).
But I do agree we're all better off knowing the technical language

Actually there are several C clefs - including the one on the middle line, known as an alto clef, and one on the second line from the top known as a tenor clef. They aren't obsolete. Alto clef is still standard for viola music and tenor is commonly used for upper register parts on cello. That said, they are rarer in music education than they used to be, which is too bad. Being able to read C clefs is a huge advantage for sight reading transposing parts at concert pitch. E.g. if you are reading an orchestral score with a treble clef part for a Bb instrument where notated C sounds like Bb, if you imagine that it is in tenor clef you get the notes in concert.

Stephen, sight reading if you understand music and are listening can be a blast and produce great results. Lots of hits have been recorded by musicians reading charts e.g. the Wrecking Crew , Motown etc etc. I've played six string guitar in a couple of big bands and it is very cool to have a piece come together on a read through, without anyone having to talk it down or memorize parts. Sight reading is a skill that improves with practice like anything else in music (and unfortunately gets worse if you don't practice).

Reading, theory, memorizing, improvising, listening -- it doesn't have to be "either / or".

Here's a link to my book.

http://www.melbay.com/Products/98207/mu ... world.aspx



As ypu can see the book costs 11 bucks (one of those goes to me.)

I will send the steel guitar supplement, which explains how the concepts in the book relate to the E9 pedals, for free to anybody who requests it.

Please send any requests via E-mail, and not through a private message, so I can attach the file to the reply.

Just FYI I just tried to order the book..The Mel Bay Website is brutally slow and not working properly.
Each page in the order process took 4-5 min to load. Took my credit card then gave me: "We're sorry, an error occurred. The error has been logged. Please try again later. (25 - Shipping)"

Charlie Thompson wrote:The Mel Bay Website is brutally slow

Hey! Same as my reading ability!

Charlie Thompson wrote:Just FYI I just tried to order the book..The Mel Bay Website is brutally slow and not working properly.

Amazon worked fine for me.

Until Monday, it's 2525 percent off on the Mel Bay site, coupon code mb25

Guys, Jim Palenscar carries the book in his store. If you're going to buy it, I suggest you buy it from him.

Let's support our friend and brother.

Mike Perlowin wrote:Guys, Jim Palenscar carries the book in his store. If you're going to buy it, I suggest you buy it from him.

Let's support our friend and brother.

How do I get to Jim's web site? The link in his profile does not work.

Thanks for the link Lane. I was thinking about what you wrote about the viola clef being appropriate for the steel. It's true, the viola clef is written in the same octave as the range of the steel.

But here's the thing. Every 6 string guitar player will play this note, E in the treble clef, on the open first string.



But in reality, the written note represents the note found on the 12th fret of that string. We (guitarists) all just accept it as a given that we play everything an octave lower than what the notes actually are.

I think the regular treble clef would suffice for those who wish to learn to read.