The Steel Guitar Forum

I think something is wrong somewhere when you have to wait a year for a production guitar like a Emmons or Zumsteel when you can get one in 30 days or so from Carter. It just doesn't make sense.......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

<SMALL>I find these wait times incredible! Are there any other industries that make customers wait up to a year for an item in this price range?</SMALL>

I think folks like to brag about the wait time. You should hear some of the reso folks talk about their Scheerhorn orders.

"I ordered my Scheerhorn during the Eisenhower administration. I wish I could play it now, but boy it'll be worth the wait!"

Okay, there's another thing bugging me here. People are ordering guitars and paying in advance for them, and the builder doesn't even have the parts in stock to build them. This is an incredible leap of faith, in my opinion.

Essentially, the builders are selling a promise. I would never pay 100% up front under those conditions. Even a 50% down payment is a stretch, in my mind. A good faith deposit I can understand, to keep the customer from backing out of a custom order.

Am I the only one that thinks this is a bizarre way to do business? How many manufacturers are accepting full payment in advance for guitars that haven't been built yet?

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
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Mike:
Great news, That means you should have it in
90 days or less.

I'm in agreement with you b0b.

Eddie Fulawka doesn't take down payments because he knows he can sell your guitar if you can't honor the deal.

It sounds like Emmons can sell any new guitar they make too.

I'd give a percentage down for custom work, but I also want a firm deliverly date.

I agree completely with you, b0b. It looks like it's a seller's market with new Emmons guitars.

Maybe builders with waiting lists,... most conspicuously Emmons, Franklin, Anapeg, and Zumsteel (and probably others)... should list some guitars on eBay and see what folks will bid up for them?

"Insert brand here black mica D-10, 8&6, factory warranty, pickup of your choice, ready to go. What am I bid?"

Possible?

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

B0b,

We do. Additionally, eveyone who has ever purchased from us got their guitar on time or early.

All steel guitars built today (with one exception) are really production on demand.

You are ordering a CUSTOM CONFIGURATION. Except for "floor stock", a guitar will not be built until an order is booked.

We do, of course, maintain a large inventory of parts to build guitars.

All of these parts are available in-house, polished, and assembled into subassemblies (such as changers, keyheads, etc.) ready to go on a guitar. But, we don't know your setup, color, pickup choices, etc.

Because of the relatively low amount of time needed to assemble an order and the well known fact that eveyone who has ever purchased from us got their guitar on time or early, full payment up front has become the prefered method of payment used by almost all of our customers.

The only true mass-produced steel guitar made today is the Carter-Starter.

John Fabian
www.steelguitar.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John Fabian on 05 March 2004 at 10:34 AM.]</p></FONT>

Incidentally, I ordered my custom built cocobolo Fessenden on September 9 2002, and received it March 1, 2003. The delay was due to wet weather in Texas not permitting the shooting of lacquer for a good part of the winter. The cabinet of the guitar was made by Mark Giles in Hamilton TX.

I made a small down payment to pay for materials and show my commitment to the deal. Of course, Jerry and I have known each other for decades, but I believe he's pretty on-the-spot about filling orders.

<SMALL>You are ordering a CUSTOM CONFIGURATION</SMALL>

This is basically what drove Fender out of the steel guitar market. They were simply not geared up to handle one-off jobs economically.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 March 2004 at 10:33 AM.]</p></FONT>

John, which guitar is the exception to production on demand? Anapeg? They do have the longest wait times, but nobody seems to complain; I don't know how they are on meeting the specified delivery date...

Carter-Starter.

A custom made guitar is still production on demand.

John Fabian

I totally agree with b0b on the matter of full up-front payment - totally unacceptable.

I've had two new Emmons in the last six years (during Jim and Joanne's administration) - Jim quoted a 10% deposit, I recall, but only asked for $200 each time. The same was true when I bought my Zum - Bruce asked for $200. These are token amounts, and there's little doubt that either builder could easily sell the guitar were I to pull out of the deal.

I've had to put down a little more for my new JCH, but I know that Jimmie has the cabinets made elsewhere, and he needs some money for parts; his output is tiny, as we know, and this is reasonable as far as I'm concerned.

I've just heard that a model bus manufacturer is to produce a highly-detailed 1/43rd scale model of a London Trolleybus as a limited edition. Strange as this might sound to all you 'normal' guys out there, this is something I've longed for since I was a boy. However, I've declined to order one because the distributors are demanding the full payment ($550) before they'll accept my order - and they haven't actually started to make them yet!!!!

Unacceptable.

RR

Al, I'm going to agree with you. There is no reason, in my opinion, that anyone would have to wait a year to get a guitar, I don't care if it's gold plated. I love Emmons, Zum, Carter and Pedal Master guitars. They are all great guitars but something is bad wrong when you have to wait a year for a guitar. I could build one myself in that time. Cheers to Carter and Pedal Master for a less than two week delivery time on most of their guitars.

I ordered a D-10 Sho~Bud directly from Shot Jackson in 1965. I paid 1/2 down with the balance due on delivery. Then I waited for 2 years for it to show up.
Erv<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 05 March 2004 at 12:46 PM.]</p></FONT>

In the business world, there are several scenarios that are the norm. But boiling it down to two extremes; there is the business like Carter which is on top of every facet of their business. IE, using no nonsense business tactics IN the business to grow and stay on top of all the latest good business practices.

Their website alone speaks of professionalism. NO stone escapes them in buisness practices.

There is NO way on this earth Carter would ever have achieved the success they have if they had not done the above. Let me sight you just ONE example of top notch professional business acumen.

Before I even made a firm decision to produce Atlanta's first steel show, Ann Fabian called me and wanted a booth. I have NO idea how Carter even knew about it. Not only did they want a booth, they wanted to know ALL the details of the booth, IE, lighting, location, AC outlets, security, etc, etc.

This impressed me to no end. NO other builder came close to this professional business attitude like carter. And this goes for everything they do. From almost immediate return of phone calls or emails, to delivery times heretofore unprecedented in the PSG business.

At the other end of the spectrum is the business that runs by the "seat of its pants". Some builders NEVER returned an email OR our professionally written letter asking if they wanted a booth.

They use the money they get from the next customer to buy the parts for the guitar they are working on. They always have an excuse of "why" something cannot be done when they finally do answer the customer's phone call or email.

In other words, the business is the king and the customer gets pot luck. Failure often to return phone calls and emails, etc, abound in this type of business. "My email is not working"; "my computer went down"; "we are waiting on parts"; "the guitar will ship next week" week after week after week, "sorry we did not receive your email". etc, etc.

Having worked for this type of business in intimate relationships, I can tell you this abounds in business MORE often than many people realize. Taking a customer's money and buying parts to use in another's guitar is a Ponzi scheme and it is immoral; and should be illegal. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is no way to run a business.

Yes, two extremes in business. And all the others fall somewhere in between. Hopefully with this forum exposing truth, the days of an unethical business practice will be a thing of the past in the future when it comes to the PSG business.

IMO, there is NO reason to charge more than a minimal deposit for a PSG. Let the cost of buying parts be born by the initial investment of going into business. Then from that point on, all money's collected from party B GOES to party B's guitar, NOT to pay to finish part A's guitar. Then hope you continue to get additional sales to build party B's and party C's from Party C and party D respectively, and so on.

A deposit should ONLY be to weed out "shoppers" and insure good faith. NOT to finance the business' current overhead.

Finally, IF a builder cannot stock parts (only buying parts necessary to build one PSG at a time); and that business has an average turnaround time of a year or more to complete a guitar; THIS information should be volunteered up front. Or that builder is NOT not a reputable builder IMO. EVEN if they build the best.

I paid 100% up front to take advantage of a sales' price in good faith. ONLY after I threatened to sue did I receive my guitar.
And this after phone call after phone call with the typical, "we are waiting on parts", etc. This is just not right.

"I did not come in on the last load of pumpkins!"

I do not have a feel for how long it takes from start to finish to build say a D-10 standard 8 X 4. But lets say at worst case it would take a month. Actually I believe it could be built much quicker. But lets say a month.

Why in heaven's name should it EVER take a year? Something is wrong in Denmark. And that something better get fixed yesterday or that business is not going to be in business in the future. Not with the ability of buyers to "compare notes" like on the internet and/or forum.

A word to the wise Mr builder.

carl

Back in the seventys, I worked for a film developing lab who's owner, was 'er..., somewhat shady! He was one of those kind of persons that was always trying to cook up schemes to make money, without having to do much work, or no-work at all, and without having to put out any money. One day, he received a call from another lab owner up in Washington state. They talked nearly two hours by phone, and when they were done, he sat down with me and related this guys motus operandi! Apparently this owner from Wash. had placed several ads in some photography magazines offering to send you free "exotic" film with un-heard of resolution. People would send for this film, and he would send it back to them right away! Of course no one developed this film except custom movie industry labs and him. The film as it turns out was film that big movie companys used for large scale movies. Anyway, they would send their exposed film back to him for processing, but he would take the film and file it away, and take the money they sent directly to the bank to be put into a savings account that would pay him interest. Basically, he was driving around in a brand new Cadillac, and living in a brand new home all paid for from the interest these peoples money paid him! He would only develop film from people he thought might get him in trouble by contacting authorities who might prosecute him. Other than that, he would sit on all the film sent to him by trustworth people until they finally gave up!
A scam, is a scam, and I'm not saying that this is what the Emmons company is doing. But I wonder, what are they doing with the money you guys are paying for up-front? Putting it in a mattress somewhere? I don't think so!!!!! "Let the buyer beware!"

Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Wood on 05 March 2004 at 04:43 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Wood on 05 March 2004 at 04:45 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Wood on 05 March 2004 at 05:20 PM.]</p></FONT>

Very well put Mr Dixon and Mr Wood.

Well fellows being new to the steel guitar world I guess I had to learn some hard lessons and brother this is one of them.I should have bouth Tommy White's black Sho-Bud Professional when I had the chance and kept my EMCI,but if a frog had wings.....I appreciate all the support from all of you and I will let you know the minute I go get it and believe me never will I pay for something before I have it in my hot little hands.

Mike Richardson
1993 Emmons D-10 Lagrande ll
2001 Nashville 1000

Emmons Company is scheduled to be at the Texas show next week. I wonder with all of the shipping problems and getting guitars out in a timely manner, would they have any new steels to sell at the show? I would like a new Emmons but will not wait a year on any company to build me one.

Last fall I got to check out the new Emmons John Hughey was playing. He sounded better than ever on it and that steel was a beautiful thing.

I called Ron to see if I could get a student one of the new legrandes. He called me right back and said they where having some production issues so the wait would be about a year. He also said that once he got a couple things straightened out the wait time won't be so bad. I would love to own one of those new legrandes. I hope everything works out for them.

Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 05 March 2004 at 11:48 PM.]</p></FONT>

I guess I wold ask why any of us would make a purchase and wait a year ...

A lot can happen in a years time....

Our family business for custom orders is 30 to 45 days..not that it takes 30 - 45 days but the logistics of BUSINESS keeps the 30 day window manageable for us and acceptable for customers. Obviously we are not making Steel Guitars but we are providing products to customers who have ordered and in most cases paid in advance.The actual product is not the driving force,the build/manufacture cycle rules.

Back ordered materials is not the customers problem..never has been, never will be..If a business turns back ordered components into a customer problem without resolving the normal business practice/cycle, then bigger issues are generally in play. Back ordered components are a symptum , not a cause.

I'm not saying that this is whats going on in this situation but as normal Business 101 tells us , it may be a flag..

I like what Carl states above ..and I feel that is about as accurate as you can get.

Anyway..I have seen some of the new Emmons Steels and I would be proud to play one as well..but I am not certain I could wait..or would wait a year...<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 06 March 2004 at 03:52 AM.]</p></FONT>

I have a small manufacturing operation (not steels) and I absolutely must have a 50% deposit to have any money to built the product. I tell my customers that without a deposit, we are just talking about an order, but we don't have an order until the deposit is received. The $ needed to build a guitar is probably the reason that guitar manufacture's have to have money up front. They are just very small operations with a couple of employees for the most part. It is pretty much the norm in the music business that the top brands have a long wait period if you wait for one to be manufactured for you instead of buying one already in stock by a dealer. I have a competitor in my business that only leaves his message machine on and then returns calls at his convenience. He says it is absolutely necessary since he is a manufacturing operation, not a sales office. He couldn't get any work done for answering the phone all day! Being small, you can't afford to hire someone to answer the phone. Also, 90% of the time they are going to want to speak to you anyway. I answer my phone, but boy, I have seriously thought about using my competitors method. I would get orders out a lot faster. I just fear in a short time, there wouldn't be any orders if I did that. I am not defending Emmons, but I sure can relate to their problems being a small manufacturer. But, yes, they should be more in the ball park when it comes to quoting delivery times. At least within a month, in my opinion.

All the steel builders dont work on a shoe string like the one in question here.
When I called the Williams steel company, and I talked to Bill, and I told him I was going to order a Williams steel, And that I wanted one custom built just like the one that I saw Gene Oneal play back in the 60's only his was a D-10 Sho-BUD.
And when I told Bill what I wanted and how I wanted a special setup with my floor pedals, he said that wouldn't be a problem.
I asked how much up front, and I was shocked at a so little of a deposit he required, and he told me I would have my steel in about a month and a half, or sooner,
and I ordered it in January and he sent it to me 18th of february.
and it is really a work of art, and the action of my pedals and knee's are first rate.
Just because the big boys plays brand X, dont mean that brand is the king of the hill,
and there are other colors besides Black,
B.Jenkins
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by B.Jenkins on 06 March 2004 at 05:29 AM.]</p></FONT>

Mike,
Last year In Feb, John Hughey played the Northeast Iowa Jam. He was playing his new Zum D-10. I immediately fell in love with this work of art. I called Bruce Zumsteg upon return from the jam. He said he was currently about 40 guitars out,(Feb 2003), and that there was nearly a year to wait for a new guitar. Bruce only required a $200.00 deposit to get on the list. After talking with Bruce 2 or 3 times during the year, he then anticipated the guitar would be finished towards the end of the year. (2003) August, he sent finish chips so the color could be selected and at that time he anticipated shipping before the end of the year. During assembly, I talked with him one more time and added another knee. It was not until the guitar was finished that he wanted payment. He sent the letter in November, and the guitar was here on Dec 3, 2003. (Nearly 3 months earlier than anticipated) Everything was up front and actually ahead of time. Bruce is a pleasure to do business with to say the least. Also, the guitar is yet another work of art!

When I worked for Eastman (of Eastman Kodak), and they knew they could get an order to a customer in 2 weeks, they would quote him 3 weeks. Then, they would deliver a week early! They sure got a competitive edge doing this and won over a lot of customers that had been buying elsewhere. Maybe Bruce has that system going. Everybody complains if you deliver later than they expected, but deliver early....you have a walking advertisement! I asked a friend of mine who was quite successful what his secret was. He said it's simple: I give the customer what he expects, then add a little positive something that he didn't expect if at all possible. That would be the case with getting a guitar earlier than the time quoted, or throwing in an extra set of strings, a steel CD, some tablature, or something. Don't you know how surprised and good you would feel if you opened the case with your new guitar and found a "little" something extra.

Once again, like I say..., I waited three years for my guitar from Emmons Co. Let me say that again! THREE YEARS, for my guitar from them to never show up!!! Everytime I called, they were experiencing problems of various sorts. I called and talked to Lashley a couple dozen times or more in that three year period, and each time he said the same things, except different problems each time! One was that the time of year they couldn't paint because of the weather. It seems that they still have the same problems even now! They haven't been able to overcome some of those problems? That was close to twenty years ago! Come on!! I'm not a blooming idiot! Several times I saw people such as John Hughey playing brand new Emmons LeGrande's not to mention all the Opery guys. That..., I couldn't understand. Why did they all have brand new LeGrande's when I was sitting out here in Sunny California without the one I had ordered three years earlier! I felt like they were playing the favorites game with me. If I had been one of the monster players back then..., I would've had my guitar right away! By the way..., it never came, so I order a Franklin which if I had to do it all over now, the Franklin would be my first choice now. Not because of the lead times, but because it is also a work of art!

Sorry! I just had to get all that off my chest!

Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Wood on 06 March 2004 at 11:25 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Wood on 06 March 2004 at 11:26 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Wood on 06 March 2004 at 11:28 AM.]</p></FONT>