The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **8 Apr 2016 1:47 pm**

Donnie, you cannot find solid stock made from the same alloy used in Emmons castings. It is selected for how shiny it can become when polished. And you can never polish a piece of extrusion or billet to the same degree of shine. Plus, a cast piece does not like to bend, it will break. A niece machined from solid stock will bend. Therefore endplate a and necks should be made from castings. Unless you want mismatched appearances in parts, all parts should be made from the same castings.
Of course, if you are making a guitar which is simply a rock solid cabinet with parts added to it, whether your endplate share cast or machined from stock and if your necks are cast -- even your control panel -- just won't matter.

Posted: **8 Apr 2016 5:10 pm**

Here is an Emmons with the pickups mounted to the top decks of the cabinets.

Posted: **8 Apr 2016 6:39 pm**

Chris Lucker wrote:Donnie, you cannot find solid stock made from the same alloy used in Emmons castings. It is selected for how shiny it can become when polished. And you can never polish a piece of extrusion or billet to the same degree of shine.

You can if you know how, but most people don't...6061 polishes up just fine. My old MSA endplates look just as nice as those on my p/p Emmons. (Maybe you forgot I own both?) Also, the aluminum grades used for castings are neither the hardest nor the strongest grades of aluminum available. I guess I should also add that I've worked in the metals and machining industry for over 45 years, so with all due respect, I think you should study a little more before you try to school me in that area.

Posted: **8 Apr 2016 7:06 pm**

Jerry Overstreet wrote:Good job Cameron, I'd like to see how it all looks in a wide shot of the entire guitar.

Posted: **8 Apr 2016 7:29 pm**

Donny, I am sorry, but you are completely talking out of your ass if you think 6061 polishes decently.
Are you thinking about mailboxes?
Wheelchairs?
Donny, you are a clown.

Posted: **8 Apr 2016 7:33 pm**

Donny, how many generations have you had a business casting aluminum?
How many generations have you distributed aluminum alloys?
You are not a helpful voice.

Posted: **8 Apr 2016 7:49 pm**

Deleting the pickup mounting plate was the most positive change for me that I made to the guitar. With the 710's mounted to the plate, the tone on both necks was very thin and had poor clarity and string separation. Dialing in a sweet midrange was impossible. I was thinking the guitar may not be a keeper.

I learned it is possible for the plates to cause interference with pickups, so I removed the plates one neck at a time to compare tones during the process. The results were dramatic. I played it on a gig, and the tone was balanced, clear, and had a warm, punchy mid range but was not nasally. The audiophile guitar player I was working with that night remarked after sound check that my tone was markedly more clear and "creamy" and was curious what I changed. I am happy, and the guitar is a keeper.

Posted: **8 Apr 2016 8:08 pm**

Cameron. Unique, very nice. Thanks for the photo.

Your mods make you happier with the guitar and that's what it's all about. I too believe in making whatever changes make a guitar more comfortable for me. Visually, sonically etc.

Note taken concerning the pickup mountings.

Posted: **8 Apr 2016 8:46 pm**

Interesting, Cameron. Fill us in how you put the guitar together on top after you changed the pickup mounting style.
I am guessing you did not put your Emmons together correctly.
How did you do it? There is a difference.

Posted: **8 Apr 2016 9:00 pm**

Donny Hinson wrote:
Chris Lucker wrote:Donnie, you cannot find solid stock made from the same alloy used in Emmons castings. It is selected for how shiny it can become when polished. And you can never polish a piece of extrusion or billet to the same degree of shine.
before you try to school me in that area.[/quote

Donny, I will gladly school you in the area of alloys used for casting. Perhaps you were employed to get the mail or coffee gor the guys who did the actual casting.
Alloys tgat are made for casting are not standards like the Folgers or Starbucks coffees you ran out to get.
Grand Banks had its proprietary alloy that looked gorgeous when it was polished. Two different tractor trailer manufacturers have their own alloys for shine although a third shares one. Boeing has a special alloy for cosmetic castings that is theirs alone but they share other casting alloys for structural features.
Donny, I will take you on with any discussion with alloys, silicon bronze, sluminum, titanium, NS, and maybe we are on the same level with the ferrous metals. But don't even try to bluff with aluminum alloys you clown.

Posted: **9 Apr 2016 2:04 am**

ain't we a heck of a fellowship !

I like what Cameron did, I think it looks just fine...

but, there is always a but..

For me, I tend to lean towards "stock" and re-sale, even if I never resell. I am a purist when it comes to Instruments.

The good thing is that what Cameron did, should he decide to part with the Steel down the road, he could easily put Grovers back on and paint the inside of the casting.

I am wondering why Emmons mounted the pickups on the metal plate though , other than ease of height adjustment ? It would appear that the pups being body mounted would tend to offer more sustain ..? no ?

But then again, I have not yet ran across anyone complaining about Emmons tone, me included. I think it's the other way around , we migrate towards the Emmons tones.

anyone have a thought ? Me, I'm empty...

Posted: **9 Apr 2016 6:28 am**

There has been a lot of experimentation on whether separating the pickups or making them part of the structure would improve sustain/tone.
Good that you came to a good conclusion.

In the early eighties, a guitar mechanic proposed backing the pickups of P-bass with steel strap, supposedly to increase magnet mass
(or flux capacitance?).
I wonder if mounting the pickup directly to the plate was part of that theory.

Now I'm empty.

Posted: **9 Apr 2016 7:30 am**

Tony, removing the plate did not increase sustain or change the characteristic Emmons tone. It did make it clearer and more sonically balanced with regard to frequency equalization.

Tony, I am also an instrument purist - for me. I only want then to suit me, and if modifications adversely affects the resell price, then I write-off that loss to the money I made playing the instrument. If I have resell in mind all the time, I nor the instrument may ever reach full potential. That doesn't change the pride I take in my black Emmons.

Science and opinions may convince me to try something, but it will not supercede what I like to hear. Here are some articles I've skimmed for those interested:

http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/ForTeleLovers.htm
http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/Picku ... erence.htm

Posted: **9 Apr 2016 7:33 am**

Chris Lucker wrote:Fill us in how you put the guitar together on top after you changed the pickup mounting style.

I removed the necks then the mounting plates, took measurements, mounted the pickups to the body with springs for suspension, then replaced the necks.

Posted: **9 Apr 2016 12:21 pm**

Ha -- Legrande III owner and I never realized that there was black paint on the inside of the keyhead -- thought it was a combination of reflection from the black body / shadow / poor eyesight, if I paid attention at all. The outside is shiny and it all looks to be one piece so whatever it's made of can evidently be polished up. (Same appears to be the case with Cameron's guitar.)

Glad you're happy with your mod, Cameron.

Posted: **9 Apr 2016 6:37 pm**

I guess for the sake of full disclosure, here is another deletion, although I found it to not make any difference in tone:

All of the above on top of expanding the pedal setup from 8x5 to 9x9.

Posted: **9 Apr 2016 6:45 pm**

Cameron Parsons wrote:
Chris Lucker wrote:Fill us in how you put the guitar together on top after you changed the pickup mounting style.
I removed the necks then the mounting plates, took measurements, mounted the pickups to the body with springs for suspension, then replaced the necks.[/quote

Did you leave out a three steps that you didn't mention?

Remember, it isn't a cabinet to which you simply add parts, or reattach parts.

Posted: **9 Apr 2016 7:00 pm**

Please expound, Chris.

Posted: **9 Apr 2016 8:53 pm**

Chris Lucker wrote:Donny, how many generations have you had a business casting aluminum?
How many generations have you distributed aluminum alloys?
You are not a helpful voice.

Thank you for asking. I never had my own "business", but many years ago, I did work in a small foundry where we did mostly large industrial-type stuff made from aluminum, brass, and bronze. I worked hands-on, and did just about everything - sand prep, laying up 2-piece molds from wood patterns, as well as mixing and pouring. It was hot and dirty work, interesting and rewarding, but nothing that I'd want to do my whole life. I've also never "distributed" aluminum, but working many years for government contractors, I've bought or ordered hundreds (thousands?) of tons of all kinds of metals, most all of it, early on, from Amari, and later, from Samuel Specialty Metals. Back in the hey-day of U.S. production (and the height of our manufacturing manpower), our company regularly had 1500-2000 outstanding orders for raw metal, and we would get 3 to 5 truckloads delivered every day.

Posted: **10 Apr 2016 8:10 am**

Cameron Parsons wrote: Tony, I am also an instrument purist - for me. I only want them to suit me, and if modifications adversely affects the resell price, then I write-off that loss to the money I made playing the instrument. If I have resell in mind all the time, I nor the instrument may ever reach full potential. That doesn't change the pride I take in my black Emmons.
]

Cameron, I hear ya and I didn't mean to imply anything contrary. I apologize if it was taken wrong. My comment was only meant to mean that should you ever decide to go back to factory stock ,( perhaps for a perspective buyer) it was a no brainier. My purist comment is only related to factory stock.

photo removed...

Posted: **10 Apr 2016 8:25 am**

That's a mighty fleet you have, Tony! It looks like all your needs are met!

Posted: **10 Apr 2016 8:42 am**

Cameron Parsons wrote:That's a mighty fleet you have, Tony! It looks like all your needs are met!

too much fleet...

Posted: **10 Apr 2016 8:46 pm**

The reason for the pick-up plate is not just to raise and lower the pick-up. It puts the pick-up in a nice grounded cavity and keeps the pick-up from touching the body. Mechanical noise can be transferred into a pick-up through the body. As for the Sperzel tuner's, I have only had bad luck with those. While I prefer Kluson tuners to retain the proper duplex scale harmonics of a Push-Pull, the Grover is a great tuner. I have no opinion on removing the head paint. I have never found a way to buff the inside of a head and the unfinished castings are pitted and uneven. Tony Prior has a good point about resale value and Chris Lucker is spot on about the beautiful shine of the Emmons metals. I don't know the reason for removing the tone control and defeat switch. You are losing an important feature on your guitar.

Posted: **11 Apr 2016 7:19 am**

Cameron,

I agree with your finding about no metal plate under the pickups, and have another suggestion for you to try if you like.

I find a tone improvement by attaching the pickups using nylon spacers instead of springs. It takes some careful sanding to length to get the pickup height you want, but I much prefer the tone of hard mounting the pickup. I should also note that you may get a bit more mechanical noise through the hard mounted pickup, but nothing objectionable on any steel I have done this to.

Posted: **11 Apr 2016 10:05 am**

Great suggestion, Scott. I also tried using foam for suspension on my E9th neck. I've not noticed any difference in mechanical noise with either method. I'll try the nylon spacers next. It's very easy to make changes when it's time to change strings.

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