The Steel Guitar Forum

Out here in the wilds of the West open plains with very low population, rarely ever does one of those weird contraptions ever expose themselves for sale, so I must rely on remote purchases, the nearest cities with any population would be a 1100 mile round trip. So shipping a guitar for around a $100 is really not all that bad. You betcha' if I could actually try before buying a pedal steel it would be wonderful. Since 1975 I have had that opportunity only twice around here. and at 74, waiting for the right one to come along is just not an option.
Really...shipping success is probably quite high but of course we never hear about all of the successful shipments, just the bad experiences. Good common sense in packing plus pictures of the packing process would really ease the buyers mind, and in fact if the seller did take pictures of his packing process and sent them to the buyer, the buyer may breath easier until it arrives.
It is really more work explaining all of this, than actually doing it.
Getting to know your buyer and having dialog a bit before buying can't hurt either.
Buying in person would be such a nice luxury in these parts.

I must say that I rather dread packing anything in preparation for the shipping process. Standard guitars are one thing but pedal steels? They're so heavy that it's a real physical challenge for me to keep hefting the item this way and that as I try to see that it's taped adequately.

I'm not exceptionally old - not on this Forum, anyway - at 73 but I'm certainly not as strong as I once was and I feel like I've run a marathon when I'm finally finished.

If there's a viable alternative (like maybe driving a little way) I'd take it in a heartbeat.

I say I must agree with you there Roger. I do dread it a bit, as it will take me half of a day to get one ready, and I can only lift with one arm so it is a workout.
I would not mind driving as a far as I can and get back home the same day for show and tell.

Damir, sorry to be candid, but that was a really lousy packing job. Packing anything substantial and expensive in such a manner, and then expecting it to arrive undamaged, is pretty unreasonable. It's easy to bitch about the carriers, and how they mishandle stuff, but the first responsibility for the safety of the merchandise is on whomever does the packing.

i guess profit margin is the deciding factor?

Great sponge rubber corners for packing can usually be found at high-end stereo shops. Those expensive speakers are very heavy and come well packaged. The hifi industry has been at this for years and have it down. I recently shipped a steel, and if you look on the right inside of the box you can see the foam packing corners. They were so large that I had to cut them to fit, and they completely covered the end and corners of the case.

Cheers, Bryan

I don't know if some of you read Damir's post. It was packed by an agent for UPS. They have to be responsible for the damage. All these tips, criticisms are fine in hindsight, but do nothing to help Damir's situation and recovery.

You drop an item off to their agent to pack and ship, they should know how to do it and be responsible for the outcome.

Edited - sorry, Damir; Jerry's post made me re-read your original message.

You'd need an enormous slice of luck for that to survive shipping unscathed.Of course, a pedal steel is extremely heavy yet, at the same time, delicate - it'd be very unlikely that an agent would have a clue about the contents. Given that, it's surely better that we take responsibility to seeing that packing is more than adequate.

A good tip from Bryan, by the way.

So, how did the guitar in the original post fare? Is it damaged? If so, how bad?

I ship a lot of pedal steels. I pack the inside of the case so nothing can move inside the case, especially the legs which if allowed to move may snap a pedal.
I put the case in a tight cardboard box -- cut to fit the case.
I make another box around that box using a minimum of 2" styrofoam sheet. Then all this goes into another box--usually something called a garment box.
I pack the open forced with remnants of styrofoam sheet.
The industrial bubble wrap mentioned above can be found at pool supply stores. It is used to cover the surface of a pool. Remnants and cast offs are cheap.
I have never had problems insuring because I use Heritage. But when I used the shippers insurance I let the agent watch me pack. That satisfied them. Don't be confused by their wanting to charge you for packing service and their needing to see that the guitar is adequately packed.
My best advice, though, is ship by Greyhound whenever realistic. Ship next bus out and direct. The guitar will not need to be as carefully packed and it will never be more than two feet off the ground. They allow you to fashion a rope handle around the box because they don't use conveyor belts. The bus can be met at the other end. Premium service is similar in cost to Fedex but many potential hazards are eliminated.

Maybe part of the shipping was by United, (I hear they break guitars.......................).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo

(It is interesting that United would NOT do anything about it, UNTIL Mr. Carroll wrote a tune....Maybe you write a tune about this?)

............Pat

Well,,, I take pics of every stage of the packing. That's a winner in small claims court.

I ship only FedEx - I have had only bad luck with UPS - I received two boxes of foam ------ yes foam - one that was 2 weeks late and the other one a week later that had destroyed the cardboard box and they ------ UPS stretch wrapped it --- I shipped one UPS because the guy worked for UPS ----- he did not get it and could not find it - I repeat HE WORKED for UPS --- he bought a second seat and had me ship it FedEx to his sister's house ----- he found the first seat 15 months later setting in a warehouse covered in dust.

nuff said

Joe Naylor
www.steelseat.com

In my experience, sometimes UPS will drop/damage stuff...

But FedEx will drop it every time. I think FedEx has a policy of taking every 50+ lb. package up a 20' high catwalk and dropping it.

By far, the majority of damaged shipments for me, coming or going, have been through FedEx — and I have shipped probably four times as many things through UPS. FedEx seems to ship big heavy things for a little bit cheaper, but it's not worth it.

Just some random thoughts on this, in no particular order.

1) How do the manufacturers do it? It would be nice to actually hear from the real manufacturers on how they pack/ship their guitars, as a starting point. They have a vested interest as part of their business to avoid dealing with these issues. Carter used to do a lot of business and probably kept records of claims, but they are no longer with us. Who is left that could chime in? Zum, Williams, Infinity, GFI, Justice, Mullen, etc?

2) Shipping/receiving advice: Around 2001, when I bought my new pro level steel (a Carter), I had spent a few years on the SGF. I read a post somewhere that advised to ship the guitar HOLD FOR PICKUP, if possible. That way you can see the box at the UPS/Fed EX/etc place of business and hopefully get a good feel as to if there was any damage during shipment. PLUS, if the shipper delivered it to your house when you were not at home, you wouldn't have a $2000+ PSG box sitting on your front porch for all to see and take.

3) Pictures? I agree with one previous poster about pictures. All of the tips and verbage are good and appreciated, but why not use those digital camera thingies to take some photos and put together a step by step tutorial on how to do this? Provided we could all come up with a (roughly) common method of doing this. In hindsight I wish I would have taken pictures of my Carter when I unboxed it. So for those of you that are getting a new guitar shortly (hint, hint).......

4) So who packs it? If you pack it they won't honor the claim/insurance. If they pack it, do you get to watch them do it? And if they just throw it into a box, now what? You could tell them to forget it and walk out. You could advise them on a proper/better way, which assumes that they care, or will comply, or will change their ways in all future packing jobs. Yeah, never mind, I know the answer here.

5) Responsibility? Someone also pointed this out: YOU are ultimately the one responsible for it's safety. Remember that this item will be handled multiple times by multiple people during its journey. You have absolutely no control over it and who touches it, unless you want to deliver it yourself. (Now if we could just get the yahoos walking and talking and texting who walk into the street without looking to accept that they are responsible for their own safety, but alas, that is another rant.)

6) What is it worth to you, as a buyer or seller, to have the item arrive undamaged? Is it worth the minimal extra time/money to pack it your self, in a way that you KNOW will protect it from anything short of a nuclear blast? From the posts so far, it seems pretty clear that several of us would absolutely guaranteed do a better job than any UPS/Fed EX/USPS "professional". So remembering that YOU are ultimately responsible, is it worth it to you?

7) What are we shipping (sort of unrelated)? PSGs are expensive, but to most people they are just a hunk of wood and metal. But what about a vintage guitar? To me, that is a whole 'nuther subject. Would you hand over that 1959 Les Paul to the yokel of the day at UPS/Fed Ex/USPS to take behind the counter and pack it up and ship it without watching them? And when you left, who knows what he does then? And how do you insure something that is worth $10K or $100K or more? Vintage guitars are like a magnet for every greaseball walking the streets. How do the pros like Gruhn's, etc do this?

The end.

"If you pack it they won't honor the claim/insurance."

I pay for their insurance. Pack it myself, and take a bunch of pics in case I need to take them to small claims court.

I realize both the ability and the desire to travel varies from one person to another. But for those who don't mind seeing some scenery, don't overlook the idea of either driving to the seller's, or getting him to meet you part way. That totally takes UPS/USPS/FedEx out of the equation, and you get to meet another player face to face as well.

Yes, I realize that's not practical in many cases - cross-continent and foreign sales for example. But with relatively cheap gas these days, even a trip of a few hundred miles would be less costly than taking your chances with a parcel service.

The point number four above is never been my experience. Insurance requires that they pack or observe your packaging and approve it. Anyone shipper that insists upon packing wants you to pay them to pack it. They are not the real carrier, they are some franchise.
Don't be passive. Be active in your dealings with shippers.
It really comes down to don't rely upon standard insurance. For example, fed ex insures up to $50,000 except for items of unusual value. Vintage instruments are considered to have unusual value. You can ship a restored 68 Emmons and if it is damaged you will not get paid. However, if you happen to have said it was a vintage reissue Emmons, something you can order new from Mike Cass, you will get paid.
But if you aren't going to over pack yourself, over insure -- get Heritage Insurance.

I've had no trouble packaging myself and getting their insurance. But then I've never had a claim, cuz it was well-packed. We did it the same way at Performance Steel Guitars. But I take the pics so if I have to take them to small claims court, I have good evidence.

Someone here went to small claims court and won. Was it Erv?

When i first began accepting guitars for repair, etc, I was using UPS......NEVER AGAIN...I was upstairs one afternoon, practicing. My volume was pretty loud, not to mention my tracks in ProTools were ripping too....I heard the guitar being delivered to my front door when it hit the concrete, as it was dropped from the UPS Drivers shoulder...JUST SLAMMED TO THE GROUND.....I dont have to tell any of you how absolutely FURIOUS I was...I made him wait until I had it unpacked...
This was a Mullen D10, strings still tuned to pitch...When I turned it over, the body was broken at the changer end of the C6 neck...AND...THE ROLLERS, still on the shaft had come unseated completely, and were lying underneath the strings, completely out of their slot.....I was dumbfounded.....850.00 settlement, took his name, videotaped the unpacking, so UPS had NO RECOURSE, other than to pay me...Since then...ONLY FEDEX....Place wood blocks in the pedalbar cavity to help support it...Cut a hole in the top of the box and expose the handle...In BIG BLACK MAGIC MARKER....WRITE DO NOT DROP, and arrows pointing to the HANDLE!!......Since then...Not one issue.....
Also...DO NOT BE FOOLED BY DECLARING A VALUE...This is NOT Insurance....It only defines the potential level of risk the shipper is taking, and raises your rate to ship the package.....(7 years flying for Fedex!)

Mickey,
When you ship guitars FEDEX, do you insure them?

At this point, I dont see the point....Just like any other insurance company, when you file a claim their immediate posture is, you are trying to scam them...They in most cases will only pay if you have absolute proof that THEY were at fault. Their first line of defense is to discourage you by claiming it was improperly packed..Which is BS....Even an "unpacked" item can be shipped if its handled properly...

Take pics of the packaging. Take them to court. Don't just give up!

Mickey Adams wrote:I heard the guitar being delivered to my front door when it hit the concrete,

A couple weeks ago I actually saw a delivery guy toss a pretty big box up three steps on my neighbors concrete porch. When it landed, it looked just like it had been carefully placed by the door.
And I always thought those news channel undercover videos were staged.