The Steel Guitar Forum

I might be alone here, but I chose the steel guitar because it isn't popular. If all your friends stood in front of a Mack truck...

Donny Hinson wrote:

Ian Rae wrote:
When I slide up the neck from one inversion to the next I think "This is the only instrument on the planet that can do this - to squeeze and stretch the intervals as it moves - plastic chords."

Not exactly, the technique is also used on violin, viola, and cello, although to a lesser extent.

I take your point, Donny, but none of those can sustain a triad. I think though that some of the characteristic things we do on two strings echo some of the double-stopping that fiddlers do.

Also I agree with Dave Mudgett that the instrument is standardised. Just look at what the authors of instruction books assume is necessary - that's the standard. A lot of extra pulls are products of the all-pull era, and are changes that the great players of pull-release guitars could get in other more difficult ways which required practice. There - I used the P-word.

This topic comes around every couple years. Lots of good points made, and a few miss the mark.

Cost of the instrument kept me from getting into it much earlier. Weight is less of an issue with modern instruments, and weight didn't prevent the Hammond B-3 from gaining some popularity. PSG is only as complex as you make it. I am repeatedly astounded by the wizardry of nonpedal players.

There is standardization, but it is almost as easy to customize as a Strat. It is easy to get a pretty sound, unlike trumpet or flute. Harder to learn to play in tune, but violin is popular.

I can think of three reasons it isn't more popular. First is changing popular music trends, and the association of PSG with older country music.But why is it seen as limited in that way?

The sound. Almost all PSGs sound essentially the same. Only a couple builders offer two pickup models. And the need for an extremely rigid body limits choice of tone wood.

But I think the biggest issue is visual presentation. The steeler sits down, staring at the instrument, while the guitarists run around and make eye contact with the audience. "Video killed the radio star."

Rich Peterson wrote: But I think the biggest issue is visual presentation. The steeler sits down, staring at the instrument, while the guitarists run around and make eye contact with the audience. "Video killed the radio star."

THAT is the main reason I believe the steel guitar isn't more popular.
I played armpit guitar for a long time and I enjoyed playing for people.
I could look at them, move around and even talk to them at times.
Now I sit there and stare at my feet, at least from the audience's viewpoint, and have very little contact with anyone but myself. It's almost lonely.............
Of course if I was a better player it might be a bit different, but I'm not so it's just me and my feet.

I play several dozen instruments, but, of all of them, the pedal steel is by far the most complicated. After you've learnt how to play guitar, learning banjo, mandolin, Dobro, lute, cittern, bouzuki, etc., is just a matter of learning different chord shapes.

As a kid I was fascinated by the steel guitar on Hank Williams records, so I built my own lap steel, but had no idea how to tune it. I wrote to Don Helms, and he sent me three different tunings that he had used on Hank's recordings. Knowing that Jerry Byrd also played with the Drifting Cowboys, I wrote to him, and he sent me several tunings, most of which differed from Don's. It just added to my confusion ....and that was before I considered putting pedals onto it.

I then built my own pedal steel, but, having no machine shop, it was entirely out of wood. The pedals, of course, were of wood, connected to the pedal bar with hinges. The upright rods were doweling, as were the rods inside the body, and the bell cranks were Meccano parts. I had no idea of the tuning, so I set it up to open E, and depressing the pedals gave me an open A. Because everything was made out of wood, in the wet English climate, it never stayed in tune, so I eventually removed the mechanism and rods and played it as non-pedal. It was decades later, and a move to California, before I managed to get my hands on a "store-bought" pedal steel, which was a revelation.

A few years ago I bought a Rickenbacker Console Steel from Ray Montee. Knowing that he was a close friend of Jerry Byrd I expected it to be set up with two of the tunings that Jerry had sent me years before, but the two necks had two completely new tunings (to me).

What a confusing instrument we chose to play.

I think that the only thing that keeps us together as steel guitarists is our love of the sound of the instrument, which somehow seems to sound good no matter how we tune it, and no matter how we set up the pedals.

But, for an instrument which demands so much experimentation, why do we insist on producing instruments which can only be reset by turning them upside-down? The instruments are heavy, and they cannot be played upside-down. I often experiment with different tunings and different copedants, but I do it using a Multi-Kord. Ironically, the first pedal steel has a mechanism that even to this day is much more versatile than all those that came after it, and you can set to copedant while sitting with the guitar in front of you, without having to turn it upside-down.

Dave Mudgett wrote:Donny outlined the real reasons why pedal steel is, and pretty much always has been, a niche instrument that most people don't learn. It takes a fair amount of dedication and time to even get to the point where you don't completely suck. It's also heavy, expensive, and is stereotyped far more than most instruments. Not a recipe for mass acceptance. I don't consider this a problem. Some people get into it, some don't - c'est la vie.

As far as the instrument needing to be 'standardized' - well, for the most part, it already is standardized. Most players have some sort of E9 tuning with A, B, C pedals and levers for E=>F, E=>Eb, and 2nd string D#=>D (and perhaps =>C#) on string 2 and D=>C# on string 9 as a core. What varies is:

1. Exactly where those pedals and levers are located;

2. Additional changes that most serious players ultimately put on via additional pedals and levers;

3. Some players also have a separate C6 neck or a 12-string E9/B6 universal setup, which is basically the same, and also reasonably standardized.

Far from being limiting, the ability to put standard changes in different places and the ability to add additional changes makes the instrument easier, not more difficult, to learn and play because it accommodates different ergonomics and different musical ideas more easily. You're looking at this entirely wrong, IMO.

Now, a relatively small subset of players significantly depart from the standardized setup and do their own thing. Again, this flexibility doesn't limit anything at all - in fact it opens up the instrument to more people and different styles. This is analogous to some guitar players using different tunings for guitar. Again, this only opens up possibilities - it doesn't limit anybody who wants to play using standard tuning.

Look - if you want a totally 'standardized' Emmons setup: A, B, C pedals in left-to-right order, your E=>F lever on LKL, E=>Eb lever on LKR, and 2nd/9th string changes on, let's say, RKR - great. You'll have no problem finding lots of guitars, instruction, and other people with that setup. But you are wasting your time if you insist that everybody should do that. And none of this has anything to do with why the instrument is not massively popular. That idea is a total red herring and feels like fish bait to me.

This is a great response. I couldn't begin to imagine how stale the PSG would be if everyone only had the three standard pedals, and the 3 levers Dave mentioned. Additional changes to extend the possibilities can never be a bad thing. Let's tell Paul to bag the "Franklin pedal", or the 1st string raise to G#. Tell Emmons and Hughey to not lower their 6th string to F#. All these changes helped define their sound.

And what really chaps my hide is when someone says they can't use instructional courses because they have a Day setup (and use that to justify changing their guitar around to Emmons style, when they haven't given the Day setup a chance - for a new player, it shouldn't make a difference), and all instructional materials are written in Emmons setup. The "A" pedal is still the A pedal on both setups. It's just pedal 1 on Emmons and 3 on Day. I really think that if a person can't translate that the A pedal raises both B's to C#, etc, they are going to have some bigger issues down the line. None of the students I have had have been Day players like myself. At first they have trouble seeing me hit P3 when they need to hit P1. But they get it after a while. Sometimes I will just say "the pedal that raises B to C#". hopefully they know what pedal they have that does that. I believe this confusion helps run a few off, when it shouldn't.

For me, I think the reason it is not more popular, at least to play as opposed to listen to, is:

1. Cost
2. Difficulty in learning.
3. Cost
4. Pigeonholed into the attitude that it is just for country
5. Did I mention cost?

I believe it is more popular to listen to than most people think. I run into pure rockers that love the sound, as well as new country lovers and others.

I'm another "NO" vote for complete standardization.

Calvin Walley wrote:Alan

your right , our beloved instrument needs standardizing
it would make learning it at least somewhat understandable
not to mention being able to sit at another players guitar
and just start playing with out worrying about making a total fool out of yourself

When I first started out, that was NEVER something I thought about. I really don't think that many of us old timers thought of that as a major consideration.

See my post above. I think the biggest problem people have in learning, is their attitude that the instructional material HAS to be the exact setup as on their guitar (thinking pedal and lever placement). And they only think of how hard they have heard it is to learn to play. That's a brick wall they have to knock down right from the start. As someone who has tried to learn other instruments, I don't see PSG to be much harder to learn than those.

pedal steel requires an intelligent open mind.
that's why it might not be for everyone.
as richard says, mostly we all need the standard changes, but in whatever position that is comfortable to you. you need a mind that understands that concept.

Ask the average person to name their favorite band..Is there an actual band member with full artistic rights to the music that plays steel guitar in that band?
Ask them their favorite singer, drummer, guitarist, or keyboard player.
Then ask them their favorite steel guitarist.

Ditto Donny Hinson

The young players know the girls don't think it's cool to see someone sit and look at his hands all night.

The way it used to be:

"I couldn't begin to imagine how stale the PSG would be if everyone only had the three standard pedals, and the 3 levers Dave mentioned..."

Yeah, violins have been four-stringed instruments tuned in 5ths since -- what? -- 80 years ago? They sound real stale... pianos too.

The pedal steel is not massively popular because many new students will watch a Buddy video or someone like him ,if their brain doesn't explode they will wisely choose something easier like rocket science or world peace.

It is not widely popular because Mr. Johnson, the High School Band teacher, doesn't play pedal steel, he plays piano and the instrument rental place where the school sends their students to get there instruments, don't have any. Besides using one in a marching band is pretty impractical.

The High School Jazz ensemble, does have an electric bass and guitar, but those student already had them and the music teacher just seized on the opportunity. That's what I think...

"I couldn't begin to imagine how stale the PSG would be if everyone only had the three standard pedals, and the 3 levers Dave mentioned..."

Yeah, violins have been four-stringed instruments tuned in 5ths since -- what? -- 80 years ago? They sound real stale... pianos too.

How about washtub bass? Pretty stale...

I find that for everyone I come across, fellow musicians in particular, who have some knowledge of what a pedal steel is - they all seem to love it.

Or they love the idea of it - in the same vein as loving the idea of completing a marathon, but they wouldn't be willing to put in the training to be able to do so.

Tom Quinn wrote:...violins have been four-stringed instruments tuned in 5ths since -- what? -- 80 years ago?...

More like 800 years ago.

Alan Brookes wrote:Imagine being introduced to the piano. "Oh, by the way," says your teacher, "there's no standard tuning. Everyone has their own ideas. And you have to turn the piano upside-down to set the copedant."

Or, think of going along to a typing school.
"Learn the position of the keys by heart, because touch typing demands that you know where the letters are without looking at the keys. Oh, and by the way, thoese five foot pedals move some of the rows of keys to the left and some to the right, and those knee levers move some of the columns up and down. I'm not going to be able to tell you which does which, because different typists have different ideas about it...."

"You don't know how to adjust the pedals and knee levers? Well, in time you will figure it out, or you could take your postgraduate degree in Engineering, which is probably easier.?"

I think it's unfortunate there aren't more players and recordings! I have a few insights into why, however I don't think the tunings and copedent have much to do with it :

1 Poor availability and access to instruments. These things aren't cheap, so that excludes a TON of people picking one up at the average music shop, especially young people, minorities, and women. Also, if you don't live near Nashville, good luck! Ever try shipping one of these things? Good Lawd. Most of the used ones would make a good fire?

2 Music industry has changed, the classic era is over. There is a treasure trove of really great Steel guitar music that was produced in the first half of the 20th century trailing into the 2nd half, and there it kinda stops. The American audience turned it's head to Rock, Punk, Dance, and Alternative after the 60s era. Hendrix came along and created an army of electric guitar players. Then Kurt Cobain did it in the 90s. Pedal Steel needs some heroes like that. Don't get me wrong, there are some players out there that are my heroes for the way they play, but they aren't very inspiring or stimulating. Buddy Emmons, the closest thing to a Hendrix, is dead! We need a new one to get young people excited about the instrument. Robert Randolph is close, but his songwriting doesn't really connect with a large audience. Go ask a random person standing on the street to name a PSG player.

3 Poor availability of teaching material - there is a bunch of it out there, but it ain't free for the most part. Most of the guys producing tabs want some sort of fee, and then half the time the tabs aren't even correct! Or they're some mixture of lead and melody that , put together, kinda works. Beginners are usually guitar players. Most guitar tabs can be found with a simple google search, even the great ones like Led Zeppelin and Hendrix. I get it, people need to paid for doing good work in transcription, but all other instruments have us beat in the freebie department.

4 No pop stars putting PSG up front. Sarah Jory is the closest thing to a person who leads from steel (cuz she leads from steel). Maggie Bjorklund is also a person trying to push the limit, create something new, lead from steel, etc. Her music is really good! Go check it out.

Sorry it was long winded. This is something I pretty much think about everyday trying to figure out why more people aren't invested in this magical instrument!

-Pat

I first heard the sound on records and it really got my ear. Now I think more people would be interested if players would just fill in the background when not playing the lead with full chords not loud but to fill in like organ might do. It works for me and I like the way it makes the singer and the rest of the band know when and where the song is leading them. Our job in a band is to make the band sound good as well as the singer and not over pick and become boring to the sound of Steelguitar. Not that it might happen to me. You know get bored with Steelguitar. I hope I didn't go in the wrong direction on what this thread is about.RS

Ron Scott wrote:...I think more people would be interested if players would just fill in the background when not playing the lead with full chords not loud but to fill in like organ might do...

I've always thought that strings sections,(erspecially the lush orchestral sort), could be replaced with steel. Once you take the steel out of the band and replace it with "silky" strings and organs you change the entire sound of the music, and, to my mind, not for the better. The organ belongs in church, not in a country band.

I tend to think of music as a cake--the bass,guitar,drums,keyboard & vocals are the eggs,flour,shortening, water. The steel is the FROSTING.

You can have cake without frosting, but it's gonna be boring. And...too much frosting makes you sick. Just thinking of something Buddy said about steel..."always leave them wanting more".

Which is why I never go to steel conventions--steel overload is very real!

Agree with Rich and Allen. That is the way I see it. You know as steel players and musicians in general we would love to play all the time but that to us would be over kill eventually.I don't get tired of playing if I can keep it fresh and play with my feelings.Be a good listener when playing and listen to the other players and where they are taking the song.Sorry if I get started on that. I guess it comes from years of playing in bands with other musicians who just played all the time and loud. Makes having fun with your playing hard to do,that is if you are serious about sounding good as a band. No matter what band you play in.Steel guitar is not going anywhere as I see it from here.RS

Alan Brookes wrote:

Tom Quinn wrote:...violins have been four-stringed instruments tuned in 5ths since -- what? -- 80 years ago?...

More like 800 years ago.

Sarcasm Alan, sarcasm...

There's AT LEAST twice as many manufacturers as there were when I started hanging out here, 14 years ago? A few drift back out of it, but for the most part they ALL hsve a wait of a few months to...many months.

http://b0b.com/wp/?page_id=121

You could ask these 29 manufacturers whether they're going out of business... as I recall, just about the only way you CAN go out of business is to die. Even THAT didn't work for Bobbe... HAVE any steel guitar vendors gone out of business, due to lack of customers?

Maybe I'm extra-special lucky in that a small clot or glob of guitar students more-or-less FORCES me to keep my ears open. I am dead-certain there's more good new music being produced right now than there ever was, with a POSSIBLE exception being 1966-ish to 1974-ish. But it's fragmented, it's all over the place, you really DO have to make a big enough effort to occasionally PUSH A COMPUTER KEY when you run across a sorting mechanism, or, rather, it runs over YOU - "If you like THIS, you may want to listen to THIS"... that sort of thing. And lots and lots of this great new music has steel guitar totally integrated and woven into the structure of the music. Unlike the Bad Old Days, when steel players played an intro, then (mentally) just wandered about the pasture till.. Steel Solo Time! I DO think there's more steel being played intermittently on some songs only, there's these "utility" guys who use the steel as one more tool in the arsenal. Which is probably good, they're not trying to FORCE it where it isn't needed. Which of these hundred guys sound LEAST needed, most useless and unpopular to YOU?

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=208507

We are also fortunate that there are no longer any of those stupid old people who turn on the radio and listen for hours, only to conclude "god all this new music sucks!" Day, after day, after day... And then, ditto with the parallel process with their TV at night. The average American watches television FIVE hours a night! Even if you only say "god television sucks!" every ten minutes, that's still 29 times a night. But they CAN quit anytime they want to, they just don't quite ye... well, NEXT week for sure! They HAVE to watch one more week, just in case somebody runs a big special all about steel guitar and filled to the brink with great new steel guitar music! Hey, Maybe It'll Even Be On Tonight!