'' Emmons Steel Company ''

[Tony Prior]

I would still buy another used one, I currently own 3, none were purchased new.

I would not order a new one.

[Erv Niehaus]

The last two guitars I got from Emmons were new/old D-10 push pulls. The cabinets were old ones built by Ron Sr. and Ron Jr. finished them off with new parts. They were both lacquered guitars and I still have one. The 1st one was sold to FedEx when they damaged it in shipment.

[Jeff Garden]

sounds like FedEx has created the "push(ed)/pull(ed) apart", Erv

[Erv Niehaus]

Jeff,
You're correct!
They wouldn't recognize any damage and I had to take them to conciliation (small claims) court and they eventually had to cough up $4,800 dollars!

[Donny Hinson]

Erv - to elaborate a little, here's another's view on the subject:

While living in California I hired an attorney to investigate my status with the Emmons Guitar Company and found my “partnership” contract was nothing more than a carefully worded agreement for royalties. When I discovered I had no ownership, I was so incensed I told my lawyer to do whatever it took to get me a release. A year or so before, I was persuaded to sign my half of the patent over to the company; so the only leg I would have had left to stand on was gone. To get my release, one of the stipulations was to give them the right to keep the name Emmons Guitar Inc., so I agreed. These facts are a matter of record due to another legal wrangling I had with the company in a Nashville court in the mid 1980’s.

For the sake of the Emmons Legrande owners and potential buyers, I hope this gloom and doom scenario is all overblown nonsense and Ron Jr. can keep the doors open for them and their needs. But from my personal standpoint, I wouldn’t care if it went under tomorrow. My contribution was the designing of the Emmons push/pull model. That and my name pretty much sums up any meaningful relationship I ever had with the company.

'Nuff said.

[Erv Niehaus]

Donny,
Got any more dirt you want to dig up?
I'm sure we would all like to hear your personal experiences with the Emmons Co.

[Steve Spitz]

Digging up dirt ?

How does communicating true information constitute " digging up dirt " ?

I'm interested in the subject, even if it isn't from personal experiences. I believe the purpose of the forum is to share information, for the benefit of the members.

[Erv Niehaus]

I prefer 1st hand information. Not 2nd hand hearsay.
I would like to hear Donny's personal experience with Emmons, is that asking too much?

[Kevin Hatton]

I can tell you mine Erv. Donny was right. Emmons company has had a shady past for years even with Buddy Emmons. I had to rescue an international customer myself because they refused to send a pedal rack for a new guitar. Disgraceful. One incidence of rip off after another. Nothing personal, just bad business.

[Tony Prior]

I am asking myself where this thread is aiming.

At the end of the day they are still great guitars so whats the point of all this ?

Emmons Steels didn't get to be excellent because the Emmons badge is on them, they became excellent on there own merit.

Should we be reminded that Buddy played a Black Legrande III with the Rose on the front apron for years even after he parted ways with the E-co. ?

I hope that the nayers are not attempting to state that the Emmons Guitars are not world class design and of world class quality. They would be wrong.

Even during the era that is being discussed, the quality of the instruments delivered is world class.

Ron Jr may not have had express interest in business 101 but he did get an A+ in Steel Guitar 101.

And no, I have no dog in this fight , my comments are just to remind each of us that we are indeed talking about world class instruments of the highest quality.

[Erv Niehaus]

Kevin,
All I can speak of is my experience with the Emmons Co. and the Lashleys. I have ordered new guitars from them and they have always come through. Same way with parts. I order them and they ship them on time. I couldn't ask any more of a guitar company. It's very unfortunate if you got treated otherwise but I have NO complaints.

Tony,
Thank you SO much for your comments. I have discovered that when people start throwing mud, they lose ground themselves.

[Tony Prior]

Tony,
Thank you SO much for your comments. I have discovered that when people start throwing mud, they lose ground themselves.

LOL Erv !

[Steve Spitz]

Erv,
If your preference is to only hear first hand information, that's fine, and no , of course it's not too much to ask. Your point is well taken.

On the other hand, I'm interested in all the information, if it's accurate , honest and unbiased. Is that too much to ask ?

I'm not bashing the company or the guitar. I'm not sure how anyone got that impression. I've owned Emmons, and I'm with you, Tony. Great instruments. That's the reason I'm interested in the topic. I don't think wanting the knowledge is " throwing mud"

Regardless, I respect all the posters and enjoy the discussion.

[Dave Dube]

Erv, loyalty is a good thing when it is warranted.

Like, when one is loyal to his spouse. That loyalty is a good thing. Except when he continues to be loyal without question when all of his immediate family members have witnessed her cuddling with other men and told him about it out of concern for him. In such a situation, blind loyalty is probably not in one's best interest.

It seems that the Emmons company has had a history of disloyalty to paying customers. This is a matter of public record. It has even had a history of misdealing with the namesake of the company! This is also a matter of public record.

You are entitled to keep sending Emmons company your money and conduct your affairs as you see fit.

With all due respect though Erv, I take exception to your attempt to stifle open honest discussion about the subject with ridicule. I feel it is a disservice to the membership here.

I remember when people were falling all over themselves to brag up the work that Coop was doing on Sho-buds, until it all failed. Then it came out that there were dissatisfied customers who were afraid to talk about it and so kept up the front. I thought we all learned from that.

Let me remind you that the only reason mankind has managed to progress to the extent of civilization we have reached, is by learning from the experiences of others. If you require everyone to make the same mistakes for themselves without learning from the experiences of others, you set everyone back!

While reckless gossip should be shunned, I don't see that here. I see people, including Buddy, speaking in their own words about incidents that have been validated and recorded in court. If you want to call truth "dirt" then you have to fault the company that made such "dirt" true.

From my perspective Donny is gaining ground. You are losing it.

I doubt an Emmons guitar will increase in value because of the demise of the company. Unless of course you can find enough gullible people...

[Lane Gray]

The guitars will continue to appreciate. Because they were well made, but are not made in large numbers anymore (although some dealers continue to make them). The quality of the guitars will keep their value

[Dave Dube]

Lane, naaaaw. Only if demand outstrips supply. That may happen someday in the distant future.

So unless you can bamboozle the buying public into thinking that they have to have an Emmons now, because the company went down, there is no appreciable difference between the 2014 Emmons guitars and the 2015's.

If demand for Emmons guitars is so high, then how on earth could the company go out of business? Banks would have been fighting over the chance to finance them.

This looks like wishful thinking on the part of Emmons owners.

EDIT: To clarify, prices should not appreciate any faster than prices in general. The thrust of this thread was whether they would appreciate now because of the closure, not because of general market conditions. Putting credence in such unfounded speculation may be a wishful way to increase demand.

[Billy McCombs]

Try to Buy a SKH EMMONS for Cheap. Ever bit $4000.00 yikes!

[Dave Dube]

Yeah Billy. Just think if you jack the price up another $800. Lots of other fine guitars, such as Mullen G2 (for example) are going to look like an even better buy.

[DG Whitley]

I don't think anyone was dissing the quality of the Emmons guitar, just the company behind it based on past experiences.

I think they are great guitars and would love to have one, but I have pretty much chalked that off as never going to happen. I tried contacting Mike Cass but never heard anything back, so I figured he wasn't interested. I envy you that have them, they are wonderful instruments.

[Bill L. Wilson]

In Nov. of '05, I bought a Black Emmons LGII D-10 8x5 "1995" model for $2375 bucks. After playing this guitar just about every weekend since then, changing strings, one broken bell crank, and minor adjustments are all I've ever done to it. And I wouldn't take $4000 grand for it today, aside from being the only pedal steel I own, it's the best one I've ever had. It plays great, stays in tune, rarely breaks strings, and has "That Tone". A few yrs. ago, I ordered new Grover tuners from The Emmons Co. for both necks and received them in a timely manner without any problems. Not so sure that would happen now. I overheard Frank Carter at The Dallas Steel Show awhile back, telling someone he had taken every measurement of an Emmons Steel and used them to build his Infinity Pedal Steels. So, I think most modern pedal steels are built on the Emmons platform for a reason, like Fred Justice told me once when I asked him why do all of these pedal steels look like an Emmons? He said, "Because it's the design that works".

[b0b]

Kevin,
All I can speak of is my experience with the Emmons Co. and the Lashleys. I have ordered new guitars from them and they have always come through. Same way with parts. I order them and they ship them on time. I couldn't ask any more of a guitar company. It's very unfortunate if you got treated otherwise but I have NO complaints.

I was treated otherwise. So was my student. Maybe they favored some customers over others, for some unstated reason.

As you so diplomatically say, Erv, it was "very unfortunate".

[Tony Prior]

Fred Justice told me once when I asked him why do all of these pedal steels look like an Emmons? He said, "Because it's the design that works".

Fred, who builds a master guitar, is not the only one who said this.

There are some "things" under the Emmons guitars that clearly led the pack when introduced.

RE: Legrandes

14 hole Bell Cranks, 2nd string half stops, in line thumb wheel tuners, all strings able to have split tuning and the famous Legrande III with the Counter Force.

I certainly get it that players are pissed off with the business practice, and I would be as well. That prevented me from purchasing a new Emmons Instrument. But at the same time I am reminded that there are, were, very few builders that were able to deliver a finished product as specified by the buyer in a reasonable amount of time. that was always my biggest concern, the time frame. If I was able to hand over around 4 grand, I was not going to wait 12 months or more from anyone. Sorry. The last time I did anything like that was in 1970, I ordered a new GTO and it took 8 weeks to get it.


Now I can't say with any certainty that Emmons Instruments will appreciate in value or even hold there own, but to assume they will not is nuts.

Today, the exact same factory parts are still available, there are several well known and very hi end savvy techs offering wisdom, advice and repairs . On top of that there are a few actually making upgraded Push Pull parts which are available each day, no wait.

Then add that some of the previous Emmons Co. builders and associates are still right here on this forum offering advice and joining conversations daily it seems.


Please, anyone selling an Emmons Steel, don't bother listing it, drop the price 50% and call me, don't call Damir !

[Dave Dube]

Tony Prior, stop spreading fertilizer. This is simple stuff. Supply and demand...demand is a function of price. It is further impacted by the number and quality of alternatives available.

I overheard Frank Carter at The Dallas Steel Show awhile back, telling someone he had taken every measurement of an Emmons Steel and used them to build his Infinity Pedal Steels. So, I think most modern pedal steels are built on the Emmons platform for a reason, like Fred Justice told me once when I asked him why do all of these pedal steels look like an Emmons? He said, "Because it's the design that works".

So obviously there are many quality alternatives. Many are new guitars and many are well-supported by *good* companies that treat their customers right. Some of these companies are fairly prolific builders and so there is also a used market.

If prices for Emmons guitars were to increase because of mere speculation then the fundamental result would be that demand will decrease; moreover, potential buyers at the new price point would see that other quality guitars have become even more competitive.

So Tony, you clever fellow you, you have tried to make the availability of used guitars into a quality in favor of Emmons guitars, however there are used Rittenberry, and Mullen G2, etc. Rather than a jacked-up Emmons you can buy a new or used G2, etc. Take your pick.

It has been said previously that the value of Emmons guitars should hold but there is no rational reason for the value to increase beyond the rest of the market. So Tony what are you accomplishing by arguing with yourself?

BUYER BEWARE: When businesses want to accomplish a particular end, they flood the market with disinformation to try to move the minds of buyers into a frame that is more in line with the business' goals. Microsoft was a master at FUD. Emmons owners are welcome to have inflated valuations for their guitars, based on gossip and speculation. You the buyer are not bound to accept them. Your resistance to foolish pricing is your best defense. Think housing bubble...

I mean, if you are going to believe that Emmons guitars should be worth more because the company closed, then I guess you like $2000 mavericks and $4000 crossovers, too. Before you laugh at those guitars and prices, remember that there is a price point at which *every* guitar becomes ridiculous.

However, if you persist in believing that an Emmons should increase in value because the company closed, despite the fact that rudiments of economics are against it, then you may also be inclined to consider this: I have some magic tone dust here that only costs $2000 for 2 ounces. You sprinkle an ounce on any guitar neck and let it sit overnight...in the morning the guitar sounds better than an Emmons...to you.

EDIT: Future readers, see what he is doing here? Arguing against facts of economics with ridicule.

Now I can't say with any certainty that Emmons Instruments will appreciate in value or even hold there own, but to assume they will not is nuts.

So you don't know what you are talking about but I must be nuts because I do. Double-talk, but casting aspersions.

Please, anyone selling an Emmons Steel, don't bother listing it, drop the price 50% and call me, don't call Damir !

More sarcastic ridicule. This behavior is inapropriate. When one can't make points through discussion then try to win by bullying. Anything to win at all costs. Dear reader please do not be swayed by such barbaric behavior.

[Erv Niehaus]

Personally, I feel very sorry for the Lashleys. They have my sympathy and prayers. I certainly am not gloating over the demise of the Emmons Guitar Co.
I'm sure they realize that mistakes were made in the past in the way they conducted business but the person who never made a mistake is the person who never did anything. I don't know how many of you naysayers have ever been in business for yourselves but it is not easy, no matter what kind of business you're involved in and my prayers are with the Lashleys.

[Bill L. Wilson]

If there is a Magic Dust, that sounds better than an Emmons, it would have to be Magic Dust. And, I'm not payin' $2000 for (2) Ozs.of this stuff, but $500 bucks seems more in line with my pocket book. Kind of reminds me of the old Who song "Magic Dust".