48th st NYC

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 19 Nov 2003 10:45 pm

I wonder if it would be possible for some of you Hot Dog NYC steelers to arrange a saturday afternoon demo at one of the steel-stockin' stores, or perhaps some discount lessons with a purchase- help some steels get to players and generate some student business at the same time. I've often wondered why the Manufacturers didn't try to educate the salesman to some degree- Most salesmen are uncomfortable demonstrating something they have no clue what to do with- but just showing kids the relationship between the "no pedals" and "pedals down" moves and the E and A barre chords they already know would probably sell a bunch of steels.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 19 Nov 2003 11:30 pm

Jody, CBS is me !

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 19 Nov 2003 11:41 pm

Maybe I was just having a bad day. It's true, Rudy's has some really outrageous axes- also true that I've played guitars there. I'm sure if I was persistant, the salesperson would have relented.
Now 48th Street custom guitars is gone too....
Oh well- BTW- I worked in a store that was in that same location, in 1975. At the time it was called..Greyson's, no?

It's true that48th street is but a shadow of what it once was..too bad.
There's a very cool shop called W30st Vintage guitars= between 6th and 7th

ALSO- ALex is still on48th street on the second floor- next door to Rudy's.
I spoke with him about a year ago.

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 20 Nov 2003 3:30 am

I had heard that Alex moved to a smaller spot &
went back to exclusively woodwinds, which is what he started with. I hope he's still alive and that Jody made a mistake regarding his demise.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 20 Nov 2003 5:53 am

The worst time to be at Sam Ash or Manny's is on a Saturday.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 20 Nov 2003 6:04 am

Right, Howard - it sounds like a fire in a pet shop!

RR

Sam Minnitti · Post by **Sam Minnitti** » 20 Nov 2003 6:57 am

Tonight is the grand opening of the new Guitar Center on 14th Street. 30,000 square feet of musical goodness.

My experience visiting these stores around the country is that they get mad at you if you DON'T play their guitars. Also, each store has a nice vintage collection.

See: http://www.guitarcenter.com/grandopenings/810manhattan/index.shtml

------------------
www.samminnitti.com

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 20 Nov 2003 8:12 am

David
Gracin opened a store above Terminal. Bernie was his first name. His main store was in Freeport LI NY and Bernie and Dennis Berardi went partnership in the 48th St store,Dennis
was invloved with Kramer guitars at the time
the store didnt succeed so they closed it.
The first floor was easy acess to the street below and when business was bad,Bernie used to jump from the window.
Ron the death of Alex has been confirmed,niceman and I like his cologne so he bought me a bottle for Xmas one year and when I was in Mannys one of the salesman said out loud,I think Alex in in the store,I can smell him.

.

Mark..the manufacturers today train their salesman on keyboard and pro audio. Thats about it.I knew drum saleman that didnt know a bass drum from a tom tom..One of them told me he was having a tough time selling his drum line.I told him you need to know the prodcuct,,he said how? by reading? I said no by playing,he said I cant play drums,I told him you dont have to,looka here,,,this is a bass drum "big drum" BOOM BOOM and he said OK whats next??I said now we have small drum
bing bing,,he said whats bing bing? I said the big drums kid brother the "TOM TOM".

He said Oh I see..whats the thing that hits the big drum (meaning the floor pedal) I said the big thing is the jerk drummer who cant play for $hit?.

Then there came the salvation to West 48th Street the name of the small store was
BEN'S MUSIC owned and operated by a man who couldnt speak a word of English all you had to say was 40%off. His full name was BEN GOD...he had a wife who was 4 ft
11 and had a big mouth..I'll have all of this in my book,,Ben was the star of 48th street..if you think this is interesting you aint heard nothin yet or maybe its boring I dont know David I'll call a few people today to confirm that Alex is still with us. I hope he is. Am I boring you? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I'll bet Bob Hoffnar is sorry he started this thread.
[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 20 November 2003 at 09:17 AM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 20 Nov 2003 9:04 am

This just came in.

I called Rudys and Alex is still alive and well. He has an instrument repair shop next door to Rudys. Now I can go and get some cologne from
Rudy and smell just like he smells

Then we can smell each other woof woof..

Howard as you know 48th Street has cleaned up its act, even the hookers have business cards and cell phones and you dont have to make a commitment,,they will give you a free audition

Crow CBS has the same call letters as you have. Thats why I posted C onstant B ull
$hit...the only differnce is you are not always constant

just sometimes.

NBC. you know what that means?? I aint tellin
Gotta go. Why dont you guys leave me alone.
I have to sell those 24 1/2 long scale hot dogs.
The Tweed Hot Dog Vendor.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 20 November 2003 at 09:08 AM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 20 Nov 2003 9:20 am

Dubble Post[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 21 November 2003 at 07:34 PM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 20 Nov 2003 2:35 pm

Sam, I've been to a few Guitar Centers and the few vintage guitars that I have seen were grossly overpriced and inaccurately advertised. A 1980s metal body 33 dobro labled as a "Cyclops".

A Fender Dual 8 Professional (trapezoidal pick ups) labled as a Stringmaster. I told the manager that he should check out the Fender as it was not a Stringmaster. He said ok, he'll research it. A month later, it was still there, still labled as a Stringmaster.

It appears that steels, old & new, pedal& non pedal, electric & acoustic, don't stand a chance in most of these places.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 20 Nov 2003 3:49 pm

Multi volume dealers dont care,,Its all about
volume which the manufacturers shove down their throats till the choke..Thats why the mom and pop stores are no more...Got a question?? e mail Bobbe Seymour or and Scotty

These big Guitar Centers and such have swallowed the smaller dealer and now the manufacturer is stuck with the problem,,what do I do with them?? Its their problem..If the big dealer falls behind in payments,what does the manufacturer do?? COD? NO CWO NO,,Open account then the Giant sends in a token of payment and a shipment is made and the situation is back to Square ONE...Its these Manufacturers who have caused their own problems and I exclude Peavey..They dont shove any thing down anyone throat,you buy what you can pay for and thats fair business

Thats why I respect Hartley Peavey more than the company I once represented..

Bobbe or Scotty that is the answer.
Edited.I have never owned or played through a Peavey amp due to my connection with Fender
but thats about to change.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 20 November 2003 at 04:18 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Nov 2003 1:53 am

I got my Fishman bridge pickup for the A-jr mandolin at Rudy's and a bass Realbook in F there last time I was in.
They are ok to deal with and ususally have some cool guitars.

I hit 48ths st in Sept. looking for Finalé to score from midi ; not to be found any where except for PC. Idiotic IMHO.

And one Sam Ash salesman told me most of the best producers are not musicians...
of course he didn't know how to demo the product to me and compare it with another high end product. Logic vs Digital Performer.

Yeah right, having a hip hop Grammy makes you a great producer. And some one who doesn't know his stock is an authority on prodution... merde alors!!

Tell that to Quincey Jones, George Martin David Foster, Lloyd Mains and Jerry Douglas.

I wanted to slap the kid silly, like a redheaded stepchild.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 November 2003 at 01:56 AM.]

Jeremy Steele · Post by **Jeremy Steele** » 21 Nov 2003 11:23 am

On my lunch hour today I took a walk down to 14th Street to check out the new Guitar Center...I was overwhelmed, never seen so many guitars in one place...they certainly had a wide range, from MIM Fenders going for $189.95 up to a Vintage Stromberg for which they were asking $80,000...I did spot an old Gibson lap steel, but nothing with pedals.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 21 Nov 2003 6:09 pm

David
If you are looking for a demonstration,,,you should have walked up 49 street and 9th ave.
There my friend you would have had an education on anything for sale

Strangers In The Night

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 22 Nov 2003 8:18 am

Long before 48th Street became famous for its multiple stores all within one block,there was only one (1) music store in that area.
Eddie Bell Guitar Headquarters located on 6th
Ave and West 46th Street.

Eddie and his wife Paula owned and operated their store which was exclusivley GIBSON.

Their discounts on Gibson were minimal and their inventory was complete.

I would often go there after school,jump on a subway and go and hang out looking at those beautiful instruments that were always
kept clean and dusted off every day by Paula
Mrs.Eddie Bell.

I would look at those Gibson Harp steels and my heart would beat faster than a subway train that I took to get there.

Eddie Bell was THE GIBSON DEALER in the NYC area and it wasnt until 1964 that Mannys was able to obtain the Gibson dealership much to the dissatisfaction of Eddie Bell.

Mannys saw a way to sell volume and offered 30% discount to customers and Eddie complained to Gibson (CMI)but there was nothing Gibson could do other than ask Manny
to keep the selling price higher and in line
with Eddie Bell.

It would cost a few dollars more to buy from Eddie Bell,but he gave the utmost attention and courtesy to his customers unlike the massive discount store that was his competitor. Eddie Bell turned me down many times regarding my offering him Fender,he thought it was a joke and I began to think he was right,but I hung on until the joke was reversed and Fender took hold off all the Amplifier sales and the P.Bass was a boom
and Eddie Bell never asked me for Fender in spite of its success.

Bell sold Gibson at 20% off and Mannys started selling at 30% off retail.

Then much to his displeasure Bell offered Gibson at 30% off retail and then Manny went the mile to 40% off retail.

That and the fact that Eddie Bell and his wife had just about had enough,they closed their doors forever.

48th Street became famous for the 40% discounters and was known as "Tin Pan Alley".
I gave it the name "Murderer's Row & Death Valley"

nevertheless 48th street although a thorn in many peoples side made famous many of the product lines in those days..and to today, whenever a manufacturer or sales person want to get into the big leagues they all head for 48th street.
People from all over the world knew and know
of 48th street, that street has caused much concern for manufacturers who wanted to keep their products clean and not be overly discounted..soon the manufacturers gave in and everyone started to out do each other.

One store had a sign 40% off all ****** guitars,,the other had a sign 50% off all****
guitars and the other had a sign FREE GUITARS

that did it..and then I came along to pick up the pieces.

FENDER had Arrived.

I'll bet Al Marcus knows how hard Gibson tried to keep the prices up and how difficult
it was to compete against the NYC discounters
You want service? or price? one comment often
used by some of those non sales oriented people are..."Hey You Buyin? Or Cryin"

Thats when I knew my days had come to a end
on the Boulevard of Broken Dreams. 48th ST.

Later
Tony Bennett[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 22 November 2003 at 08:53 AM.]

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 23 Nov 2003 1:24 am

Whew! Memories!
I bought my first Martin Guitar at Terminal Music in 1955. Have no idea wehere my parents bout the Martin 0-17 I learned on.
Bought lots of Gibson banjo parts at Eddie Bell.
But to me, the real mecca was Park Row-- with Silver and Horland, then down the block Harry Newcorn, and then a bit further along, the junk shop of Oreste Durante where some of the best banjos came from.
When my D-18 and Gibson mastertone were stolen from my car in 1962, someone found my guitar in a pawn shop on 8th ave. From there, they traced back to where it came from and they found my banjo at Silver and Horland.
They told me about it, and I went down to S&H and asked if they had any gold mastertones recently. They said they hadn't seen one in ages. Then the cop came in with the warrant, and they found it pretty quick.
Never trusted them.
Most of my business was with Newcorn-- really nice folks-- at last to me!

Was sorry to see the whole area close up and get torn down and re-built.

JW

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 23 Nov 2003 5:54 am

When my D-18 and Gibson mastertone were stolen from my car in 1962, someone found my guitar in a pawn shop on 8th ave. From there, they traced back to where it came from and they found my banjo at Silver and Horland.
They told me about it, and I went down to S&H and asked if they had any gold mastertones recently. They said they hadn't seen one in ages. Then the cop came in with the warrant, and they found it pretty quick.
Never trusted them.

Winnie,,,I confess,,I was in on the theft job
I thought I had pulled it off till the cops came.

Before that time of my life.I was stealing hubcaps on 48th st.

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 26 Nov 2003 6:55 am

Those of you who are lucky enough to live near a steel dealer probably won't understand what it was like for me to leave my office on 45th street, head up to Rudy's and check out a few Fessendens. What a pleasure! As Bob mentioned, Gordon is a genuine "friend of the steel", and actually knows quite a bit about them, much of it courtesy Bob, I have a feeling. I didn't have my picks or my bar with me, but Gordon was happy to lend me a bar and some picks, and showed great interest in my playing, such as it was on the S-10. If a measure of one's stature on the steel is being able to play any steel one sits behind, I still have a long way to go, but that's another matter. After about 10 minutes, I sounded like I had some idea of what I was doing.

Another customer asked numerous questions about the "lap steel" I was playing and Gordon answered each one more than competently.

Rudy and some of the other sales guys came up just to listen, made me feel very welcome there, and let me play as long as I wanted. The steels were priced very reasonably too, I am happy to report. I think this is a really great development, a guitar retailer in New York actually selling pro-level steels, and having salesmen who know something about them. Thanks to Bob for posting this, I would have never known otherwise.

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 26 Nov 2003 8:18 am

Bobbe or Scotty that is the answer

With all due respect Jody, there are many fine retailers who deal in pedal steel and pedal steel products. Nor do Bobbie and Scotty have an exclusive franchise on steel guitar knowledge. I have great respect for both of their operations, but there are many places that provide an equal service.

It takes only a click on links to see that there is no shortage of steel guitar shops.

I do not think Bobbie and Scotty are the answer to wider distribution of the pedal steel. I believe that if we are to see a resurgence of pedal steel, it will come through mass marketing in the large chain stores. For the most part, the current steel distribution scheme is still firmly entrenched in the small "mom and pop" type store. While I feel that these folks are admirable, it is my belief that these folks cater to a niche market only... and not the broader public.

I firmly believe that the Carter organization may just be on the right track. I think that their mass marketing approach to the Carter Starter is a profound shift in the paradigm of steel guitar marketing. While I have my own doubts about the ability of the market to absorb increasing numbers of steels, I certainly hope to be proven wrong. What we need to see is an expanison of their marketing to include pro-level steels by several different makers.

... Imagine guitar mega-stores everywhere with two or three brands of pro steels and maybe a couple of starter instruments as well. Some of you can carp about the discordant noise at these stores, but that... is the sound of success.

------------------
God Bless,
Steve Stallings

www.pedalsteeler.com

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 26 Nov 2003 8:35 am

One other thing...

I think it is great that Jerry has his guitars in Rudys. Fessendons are hands down winners in the steel guitar world. Now... if he can just get them into every guitar mega store!

------------------
God Bless,
Steve Stallings

www.pedalsteeler.com

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 26 Nov 2003 10:33 am

if he can just get them into every guitar mega store!

Steve,I disagree,steel guitar is a specialized item and should be treated as such. I dont think the so called mega stores can do justice to steel guitar,other than mega discounts and poor service. Jerry builds
a fine instrument..but most mega stores look for the buck rather than the interest of the buyer.

I stand by my opinions.

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 26 Nov 2003 11:02 am

Steve,I disagree,steel guitar is a specialized item and should be treated as such.

...and this is the problem. As long as pedal steel is relegated to the "mystery instrument" realm, it will languish in obscurity. Please, don't misunderstand me... I love pedal steel and the exclusive little club we've got. But therein lies a large part of the problem. As long as we maintain that the pedal steel is a "specialty instrument" we will foster the notion that it is somehow a unique device which only the hallowed few may play.
Yes, Bobbie, Scotty, Jerry, Dana, Larry, Bill, Daniel, Frenchie, Blackie, Jeff,Charlie,Steve, and on and on all provide specialized service which the large chains can't match. But these same folks simply won't reach the mass market that possibly could be... if it is done right.

Jody... you are a treasure for the forum and I hold you in the utmost esteem. I love your tales from yesterday with the Fender folks. Life is about change and we all need growth to stay vital. I understand completely your views... but even Peavey is now sold at Musicians Friend and via the internet. I would love to see Hartley get involved in the mass marketing of pedal steel.

------------------
God Bless,
Steve Stallings

www.pedalsteeler.com

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 26 Nov 2003 8:21 pm

Sure sounds easy....the key? the small specialized stores (shops) educate the prospective buyer and spends the time doing so..then the Mega store spends NO time and discounts the product to a point where the specialized store cannot compete. Are you aware of quantity discounts offered to the mass mega market stores? while the people who strive to sell the product are lost in the mega -small specialized syndrome.

Do you know how long this would last before the steel guitar is thrown to the mega stores and they milk it for all its worth and then throw it out??

I have spent all of my life in marketing and sales..and although I see your point, you would have to have been in the trenches as long as I have to undertand human nature.Time is changed I know,but human nature has not. I would like to see those smaller stores get help from the manufacturer
and not have to lock horns making a small profit after pioneering the product.

If I had to do it over,I would seperate the dealers who specialize in steel guitar and sell other un-related product to the mega stores. That was the situation with Fender and Gibson.Gibson sold various dealers instruments other than Gibson until the said
dealer was qualified to sell the major line of Gibson..this I dont agree with.

If You were a Fender account, you were entitled to anything that had the name FENDER
No Favorites...NO extra discounts every dealer paid the same price..hard to believe?
Well beleive it..but those days are gone forever. The trend is obvious, look around you how many stores can compete against the Giants? Not many how can they, floor plans?
Cash up front? Its all about MONEY.

If those you mentioned above were in competition with the mega stores,they would leave themselves open to meeting the discount
stucture of the mega stores,thus taking away something they worked so hard to cultivate.
The manufacturer gains from this,but in the long run goes back to the smaller dealers who pioneered the product when the mega dealer loses interest and the bloom is off the rose.
I still stand by my theory and that is my opinion.

The internet market is fine..but who did the groundwork? the mega stores? or the independent dealer?.

You cant sell me on this theory..this is not progress and this is what ruined the accordian business years ago.

Too many apples and not enough people eating the apples.

End of speech. Vote for me I m in row C

edited for more..Carter has a good philosophy
they sell "Carter Starters" to Sam Ash, that is fine and wets the appetitite for the prospective buyer and introduces steel guitar to those who know from nothing about steel guitar,,but let the mega dealer
try buying a Pro Carter from Carter..they have another guess coming,,It aint gonna happen McGee. On second thought dont vote for me..I'd make a lousy president

I wish Jerry Fessenden the best of luck as well as those who choose to market their product other than direct..

Rudy's is NOT a MEGA store but in the midst of a MEGA Marketing area. Every music store looks for something special he can make a profit on and not something that he has broken his back to promote and then see it thrown out to the Mega boys. IT DONT WORK THAT WAY.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 26 November 2003 at 08:44 PM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 26 Nov 2003 8:38 pm

I would love to see Hartley get involved in the mass marketing of pedal steel.

Dont hold your breath,,Hartley was one of the very few to carefully select his Peavey dealers and he gained the support of those dealers by being selective while CBS Fender sold every Tom Dick & Harry and Hartley carefully chose his dealers while CBS sold everyone. The going price on Fender was 40%
off retail..the going price on Peavey was full retail..there was however a difference
Hartley showed the dealers how to make a profit by not "footballing his line of amps.

Hartley Peavey has my respect for keeping his products where they belong....where they first got on board years ago.

I cant preach,,if you dont read what Im saying I cant make it any clearer for you.

Your comment and I quote......

But these same folks simply won't reach the mass market that possibly could be... if it is done right. Tell me the secret I have waited years for this. What the right way?

You got Questions?? I got Answers..[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 26 November 2003 at 08:42 PM.]